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France seals $8.1 billion deal with Indonesia to sell 42 Rafale jets

Indonesians are going in big. In addition to the 42 Rafales, they have also got approvals for 36 F-15 IDs as part of a $13B deal.


Their defense budget is equal or less than Pakistan's but they are essentially borrowing against their 25 year military modernization plan which will allow them to leverage $125B in funds to get this modernization done.

Our idiots cannot think outside of $30B in exports, Indonesia (with similar population numbers as our useless, underperforming population) put out $231B in exports and have $35B in surplus. Food for thought!
Don't forget that the Indonesian economy will get a chunk of that money back through offsets. That money could end up going into many sectors of their economy and further grow their key industries. The employment (and tax base) goes up. The exports get more competitive.

Our political and military leaders won't appreciate how things work in Indonesia versus in Pakistan. The checks and balances, the devolution of leadership to locales, the fact that engineers and scientists head up the orgs they work for (not air-dropped generals or senior technocrats) and so on. You'll see these attributes in Indonesia, Turkey and Malaysia. Go figure. @JamD @kursed
 
You keep saying 6 planes but that makes even less sense. Which country buys half a dozen of one type, then another 10 of a different and then same for a third. Doesn't make any procurement sense and points to basically corruption. Why couldn't the handful of F-5s be replaced by F-26s already in service? And what's the future of Sukhois in Indonesia?

You dont need to believe me if you dont want to believe what I said. I have explain a lot about this matter
 
Why couldn't the handful of F-5s be replaced by F-26s already in service? And what's the future of Sukhois in Indonesia?

Indonesia is big, we need F16 to be put at Riau province and Riau islands province (Batam island) near Singapore and busies shipping line, and some will stay in Natuna island in SCS.

That is pressing issue to address this is why some of our F 16 being put there, while other F 16 squadron in Madiun, East Java, to protect the main island of Java and this is also relatively close to Australia.

Current F 5 squadron is in Madiun, at the same home base with F 16, T50, and some training squadron.

If other F 16 put to Madiun, so which fighter will guard Indonesia - Singapore border ( as we know that nation has many modern fighter ), where the base there is also important to supply some F 16 to Natuna island periodically to guard our territory in SCS

Sukhoi will be maintained, too many Western journalist talk nonsense in media as if we are going to replace our Sukhoi soon. The fact that current fleet get gradual upgrade and also refurbishment.

Quite huge AA missiles have just been ordered for our Su 27/ 30 squadron.
 
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You keep saying 6 planes but that makes even less sense. Which country buys half a dozen of one type, then another 10 of a different and then same for a third. Doesn't make any procurement sense and points to basically corruption. Why couldn't the handful of F-5s be replaced by F-26s already in service? And what's the future of Sukhois in Indonesia?

It certainly won't stop at only 6 planes.. 6 is only the first batch.. additional batches will be forthcoming.. target is up to 42, but purchase will be done in multiple batches.. Sqd allocation etc is not yet finalized as of now... Additionally for fairness sake, please note that Indos has a personal bias against this Rafale purchase, preferring F-16Vs and KFX.. So please take his opinions regarding the matter with a pinch of salt.. 😉 Just take in the formal announcements as reported in the media for now..
 
Indonesia currently has 16 Sus and 32+ F-16s and 16 T-50s that replaced the Hawks. Plans are still there for 10-11 Su-35s and 32 F-16Vs. That is 6 squadrons, 7 if you count the T-50s.
Now if 42 Rafales are indeed to be procured, that is 3 more squadrons, making the 11 squadron goal for the TNI-AU. So my question was where does that essentially leave the KFX?

With widely reported near default on the promised investments in the KFX program just a few month ago, and now this supposed shopping spree with the French, not to forget the defense minister not long ago wanting to buy all the Austrian Typhoons and plans for F-15EX as well, the only conclusion one can reach is that there is massive corruption within the military and politicians involved and this mishmash of a procurement policy does not say speak well for their air forces' professionalism either.


It certainly won't stop at only 6 planes.. 6 is only the first batch.. additional batches will be forthcoming.. target is up to 42, but purchase will be done in multiple batches.. Sqd allocation etc is not yet finalized as of now... Additionally for fairness sake, please note that Indos has a personal bias against this Rafale purchase, preferring F-16Vs and KFX.. So please take his opinions regarding the matter with a pinch of salt.. 😉 Just take in the formal announcements as reported in the media for now..
 
Indonesia currently has 16 Sus and 32+ F-16s and 16 T-50s that replaced the Hawks. Plans are still there for 10-11 Su-35s and 32 F-16Vs. That is 6 squadrons, 7 if you count the T-50s.
Now if 42 Rafales are indeed to be procured, that is 3 more squadrons, making the 11 squadron goal for the TNI-AU. So my question was where does that essentially leave the KFX?

With widely reported near default on the promised investments in the KFX program just a few month ago, and now this supposed shopping spree with the French, not to forget the defense minister not long ago wanting to buy all the Austrian Typhoons and plans for F-15EX as well, the only conclusion one can reach is that there is massive corruption within the military and politicians involved and this mishmash of a procurement policy does not say speak well for their air forces' professionalism either.

Those who supported 300 trillion Rupiah waste acquisition ( since KF21/IFX program is running), whether parliament members, journalists, analysts, and many fanboys can make huge sins

While those who are against it like me, inshaAllah will get huge reward since I am trying to stop 300 trillion Rupiah being wasted while killing our own industry in the process.

But I believe, inshaAllah, our President, Planning Minister, Finance Minister will not pass this crazy buying. You can read in Indonesian Defense Forum to understand that. But please dont make any comment, that page needs more time to be seen by Indonesians as this forum is quite famous among Defense enthusiast and even officials.
 
Indonesia currently has 16 Sus and 32+ F-16s and 16 T-50s that replaced the Hawks. Plans are still there for 10-11 Su-35s and 32 F-16Vs. That is 6 squadrons, 7 if you count the T-50s.
Now if 42 Rafales are indeed to be procured, that is 3 more squadrons, making the 11 squadron goal for the TNI-AU. So my question was where does that essentially leave the KFX?

With widely reported near default on the promised investments in the KFX program just a few month ago, and now this supposed shopping spree with the French, not to forget the defense minister not long ago wanting to buy all the Austrian Typhoons and plans for F-15EX as well, the only conclusion one can reach is that there is massive corruption within the military and politicians involved and this mishmash of a procurement policy does not say speak well for their air forces' professionalism either.

Plans to acquire Su-35s, Typhoons and F-16V has been formally scrapped... The plan now (up the 2040s and beyond) is to acquire :
~42 Rafales - Medium fighters to replace F-5 and for additional sqds
~36 F-15EXs - Heavy fighters to replace existing Su-27/30 sqds and cancelled Su-35 purchase
~50+ KFXs - Medium LO fighter, joint development, industrial cooperation, replacement for F-16 Sqds in the 2030s
~T-50s - Light fighter / LIFT to add existing T-50 sqds

So why not F-16Vs..? Considering we are already F-16 user...
Simple answer.. Geopolitics.. to be more specific.. CAATSA..

We originally wanted a mix of heavy, medium, and light (LIFT) fighters consisting of :
Heavy : existing Su-27/30s + new Su-35; --> Su-35 (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : existing F-16MLUs + new Vipers + KFX ; --> Vipers + KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : existing Hawks / T-50s + new T-50s; --> T-50s (in the 30s and beyond)

The above mix is in accordance with our existing supporting infrastructures, personnel, industrial considerations and diversification policy..

We already put out RFIs for Su-35s and F-16Vs in anticipation of future purchases, but then CAATSA hits... we tried getting a waiver, but was denied and was pressured to drop the Su-35 purchase.. so we dropped the Su-35 and now we lack a heavy fighter.. the only other country producing heavy fighters is the US with F-15, so we have no choice now but to get the F15s..

Ok, so now our fighter mix should look like this then, :
Heavy : existing Su-27/30s + new Su-35 F-15EX; --> F-15EX (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : existing F-16MLUs + new Vipers + KFX ; --> Vipers + KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : existing Hawks \ T-50s + new T-50s; --> T-50s (in the 20s and beyond)

It actually looks better now isn't it..? Not exactly... Having a mixed fleet of F-15s, F-16s, and KFX is great for commonality, but leaves us totally dependent on the US and their whims.. and after experiencing the US embargo in the 90's - 00's which crippled our Air Force badly, we decided to diversify our fighter purchases and no longer rely solely on the US.. Since we can't drop the F-15 as we need the heavy fighter, that leaves the F-16s to be dropped..

Ok, so now our fighter mix should look like this then, :
Heavy : F-15EX (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : T-50s (in the 20s and beyond)

It actually looks better now isn't it..? again.. not exactly... KFX is still a product in development, we can't be too sure of when it will be ready as delays in any fighter development is almost a certainty.. We also don't know yet the actual performance of KFX, will it be as good as designed..? as reliable..? So we need a mature, proven, non-US medium fighter in the meantime... Additionally KFX contains a lot of US tech and IP in it (LM is assisting in development), effectively giving the US any veto on its sales and usage.. so it's not good enough for our diversification policy.. however we will stick with KFX for its Technology and Industrial cooperation with South Korea.

And so comes the Rafale and Typhoon option.. After brief consideration Typhoon is almost immediately dropped, pacifist Germany and the UK is considered almost just as finicky as the US when it comes to arms embargo and arms exports limitations.. also the 4 country consortium of the Typhoon requires us to be in good terms with all of them all the time... Rafale then becomes the favorite contender as France is considered less restrictive in arms sales and their technology is relatively independent of the US.. and of course the Rafale itself is an extraordinary 4.5 gen fighter.. so a deal is made for the 42 Rafales.

Ok, so now our fighter mix would look like this then, :
Heavy : F-15EX (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : Rafales (mid 20's) + KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : T-50s (in the 30s and beyond)

The above now satisfies our requirement for a mix of heavy/med/light fighter, while maintaining source diversification, and also fulfilling our technological and industrial cooperation with Sokor... it's better than the planned original mix of Su-35, Viper + KFX, T-50... but it is also much more expensive now... but this is a plan that stretches' to the 40's and beyond so we can spread the cost for 20+ years... so is economically feasible too...
 
Plans to acquire Su-35s, Typhoons and F-16V has been formally scrapped... The plan now (up the 2040s and beyond) is to acquire :
~42 Rafales - Medium fighters to replace F-5 and for additional sqds
~36 F-15EXs - Heavy fighters to replace existing Su-27/30 sqds and cancelled Su-35 purchase
~50+ KFXs - Medium LO fighter, joint development, industrial cooperation, replacement for F-16 Sqds in the 2030s
~T-50s - Light fighter / LIFT to add existing T-50 sqds

So why not F-16Vs..? Considering we are already F-16 user...
Simple answer.. Geopolitics.. to be more specific.. CAATSA..

We originally wanted a mix of heavy, medium, and light (LIFT) fighters consisting of :
Heavy : existing Su-27/30s + new Su-35; --> Su-35 (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : existing F-16MLUs + new Vipers + KFX ; --> Vipers + KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : existing Hawks / T-50s + new T-50s; --> T-50s (in the 30s and beyond)

The above mix is in accordance with our existing supporting infrastructures, personnel, industrial considerations and diversification policy..

We already put out RFIs for Su-35s and F-16Vs in anticipation of future purchases, but then CAATSA hits... we tried getting a waiver, but was denied and was pressured to drop the Su-35 purchase.. so we dropped the Su-35 and now we lack a heavy fighter.. the only other country producing heavy fighters is the US with F-15, so we have no choice now but to get the F15s..

Ok, so now our fighter mix should look like this then, :
Heavy : existing Su-27/30s + new Su-35 F-15EX; --> F-15EX (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : existing F-16MLUs + new Vipers + KFX ; --> Vipers + KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : existing Hawks \ T-50s + new T-50s; --> T-50s (in the 20s and beyond)

It actually looks better now isn't it..? Not exactly... Having a mixed fleet of F-15s, F-16s, and KFX is great for commonality, but leaves us totally dependent on the US and their whims.. and after experiencing the US embargo in the 90's - 00's which crippled our Air Force badly, we decided to diversify our fighter purchases and no longer rely solely on the US.. Since we can't drop the F-15 as we need the heavy fighter, that leaves the F-16s to be dropped..

Ok, so now our fighter mix should look like this then, :
Heavy : F-15EX (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : T-50s (in the 20s and beyond)

It actually looks better now isn't it..? again.. not exactly... KFX is still a product in development, we can't be too sure of when it will be ready as delays in any fighter development is almost a certainty.. We also don't know yet the actual performance of KFX, will it be as good as designed..? as reliable..? So we need a mature, proven, non-US medium fighter in the meantime... Additionally KFX contains a lot of US tech and IP in it (LM is assisting in development), effectively giving the US any veto on its sales and usage.. so it's not good enough for our diversification policy.. however we will stick with KFX for its Technology and Industrial cooperation with South Korea.

And so comes the Rafale and Typhoon option.. After brief consideration Typhoon is almost immediately dropped, pacifist Germany and the UK is considered almost just as finicky as the US when it comes to arms embargo and arms exports limitations.. also the 4 country consortium of the Typhoon requires us to be in good terms with all of them all the time... Rafale then becomes the favorite contender as France is considered less restrictive in arms sales and their technology is relatively independent of the US.. and of course the Rafale itself is an extraordinary 4.5 gen fighter.. so a deal is made for the 42 Rafales.

Ok, so now our fighter mix would look like this then, :
Heavy : F-15EX (in the 30s and beyond)
Medium : Rafales (mid 20's) + KFX (in the 30s and beyond)
Light : T-50s (in the 30s and beyond)

The above now satisfies our requirement for a mix of heavy/med/light fighter, while maintaining source diversification, and also fulfilling our technological and industrial cooperation with Sokor... it's better than the planned original mix of Su-35, Viper + KFX, T-50... but it is also much more expensive now... but this is a plan that stretches' to the 40's and beyond so we can spread the cost for 20+ years... so is economically feasible too...
sorry your post is actually even more confusing, even if somewhat accurate. You mentioned CAATSA this no F-16s, but F-15s are okay?? And why retire existing Su-30s? CAATSA does not apply to supporting existing jets and the law might itself be defunct very soon.
Is there a news source saying no more F-16s for the air force?
 
sorry your post is actually even more confusing, even if somewhat accurate. You mentioned CAATSA this no F-16s, but F-15s are okay?? And why retire existing Su-30s? CAATSA does not apply to supporting existing jets and the law might itself be defunct very soon.
Is there a news source saying no more F-16s for the air force?
CAATSA means we won't be getting Su-35s.. but we need heavy fighters.. so the only option left for heavy fighters is F-15s... but if we buy BOTH F-15 and F-16, our air force will become too dependent on the US which is a big NO for us... So we drop the Viper purchase (just as we drop the Su-35 purchase due to CAATSA)... and in place of Vipers we are now buying Rafales..

Existing Su-27/30 and F-16 MLUs will still be used of course, we won't scrap it immediately, but we won't be adding more either .. for how long, not sure.. perhaps until the late 2030s...

Also need to note that until very recently the US was actually reluctant to offer the F-15EX to us even though we have been asking for it, instead they still keep on offering the Vipers which we continually refused... Only after we made the Rafale deal with the French did the US suddenly released the DSCA for the F-15s... I guess they finally get the message that we are not interested in Vipers and won't be buying it..
 
Also need to note that until very recently the US was actually reluctant to offer the F-15EX to us even though we have been asking for it, instead they still keep on offering the Vipers which we continually refused... Only after we made the Rafale deal with the French did the US suddenly released the DSCA for the F-15s... I guess they finally get the message that we are not interested in Vipers and won't be buying it..

Chances are that they will come up with crazy rules for your to maintain your F-15IDs. Remember the hoola-hoop that UAE had to jump through just to be able to get the F-35 approvals? That covered even commercial deals with China. From an Emirati perspective, this was gross undermining of their sovereignty.

Let's hope your ministers & commanders are able to negotiate a more favorable deal, especially given that you are an ASEAN country that is central to the American Asia pivot. Otherwise, yay to more Rafales. :D
 
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