France starts ban on full-face veil

[MilSpec]

I know right now you will be finding it very hard to relate the above quoted text with my argument so let me do the hard work for you.

As it states a secular society isn't exactly supposed to impose a religion on their population so banning people from practicing a religious practice and kind of forcing them to lean towards your way of the society is imposing a religious restriction on them.

We don't exactly follow the surprisingly stupid saying
"When in Rome ,do what Romans do."

We tend to remain consistent in our practical beliefs rather than other people.

Post 9/11 hiding your face might be a big security issue ..especially with islamic terror trying to find new innovative ways to wreck havoc on innocent civilians. So burqa becomes a very serious threat. Cover all of your body with what ever you want except with a burqa where you can pretty much hide a bomb inside. burqa is a security threat and even other countries should start seriously thinking about banning the burqa

The entire logic of Burqa against women's liberation. Burqa was meant to protect women from lustful eyes of men , Those ages have gone now ... women have entire right to flaunt their sexuality to appease themselves and law and order gives them the liberty to do so in modern developed countries unlike islamic states.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

All Muslim nations to a certain extent are "theocratic". Who should one compare it too then?

Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how

Theocratic State: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles

Secular state Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.

Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state? If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.

If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else

Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?

You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )

 

[Haseebullah]

Post 9/11 hiding your face might be a big security issue ..especially with islamic terror trying to find new innovative ways to wreck havoc on innocent civilians. So burqa becomes a very serious threat. Cover all of your body with what ever you want except with a burqa where you can pretty much hide a bomb inside. burqa is a security threat and even other countries should start seriously thinking about banning the burqa

The entire logic of Burqa against women's liberation. Burqa was meant to protect women from lustful eyes of men , Those ages have gone now ... women have entire right to flaunt their sexuality to appease themselves and law and order gives them the liberty to do so in modern developed countries unlike islamic states.

1.When will you understand to respect the teaching of religions.This is exactly what Islam prohibits a woman from doing.

2.Well Islamic states have relatively very low rape count unlike Non-Islamic states:
Crime Statistics > Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country

Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
# 2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
# 3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
# 4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
# 5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
# 6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
# 7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
# 8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
# 9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
# 10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
# 11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people
# 12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
# 13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
# 14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people
# 15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people
# 16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people
# 17 Mexico: 0.122981 per 1,000 people
# 18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people
# 19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people
# 20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people
# 21 Finland: 0.110856 per 1,000 people
# 22 Netherlands: 0.100445 per 1,000 people
# 23 Denmark: 0.0914948 per 1,000 people
# 24 Germany: 0.0909731 per 1,000 people
# 25 Bulgaria: 0.0795973 per 1,000 people
# 26 Chile: 0.0782179 per 1,000 people
# 27 Thailand: 0.0626305 per 1,000 people
# 28 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0623785 per 1,000 people
# 29 Poland: 0.062218 per 1,000 people
# 30 Sri Lanka: 0.0599053 per 1,000 people
# 31 Hungary: 0.0588588 per 1,000 people
# 32 Estonia: 0.0547637 per 1,000 people
# 33 Ireland: 0.0542829 per 1,000 people
# 34 Switzerland: 0.0539458 per 1,000 people
# 35 Belarus: 0.0514563 per 1,000 people
# 36 Uruguay: 0.0512295 per 1,000 people
# 37 Lithuania: 0.0508757 per 1,000 people
# 38 Malaysia: 0.0505156 per 1,000 people
# 39 Romania: 0.0497089 per 1,000 people
# 40 Czech Republic: 0.0488234 per 1,000 people
# 41 Russia: 0.0486543 per 1,000 people
# 42 Latvia: 0.0454148 per 1,000 people
# 43 Moldova: 0.0448934 per 1,000 people
# 44 Colombia: 0.0433254 per 1,000 people
# 45 Slovenia: 0.0427648 per 1,000 people
# 46 Italy: 0.0402045 per 1,000 people
# 47 Portugal: 0.0364376 per 1,000 people
# 48 Tunisia: 0.0331514 per 1,000 people
# 49 Zambia: 0.0266383 per 1,000 people
# 50 Ukraine: 0.0244909 per 1,000 people
# 51 Slovakia: 0.0237525 per 1,000 people
# 52 Mauritius: 0.0219334 per 1,000 people
# 53 Turkey: 0.0180876 per 1,000 people
# 54 Japan: 0.017737 per 1,000 people
# 55 Hong Kong: 0.0150746 per 1,000 people
# 56 India: 0.0143187 per 1,000 people
# 57 Qatar: 0.0139042 per 1,000 people
# 58 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0132029 per 1,000 people
# 59 Greece: 0.0106862 per 1,000 people
# 60 Georgia: 0.0100492 per 1,000 people
# 61 Armenia: 0.00938652 per 1,000 people
# 62 Indonesia: 0.00567003 per 1,000 people
# 63 Yemen: 0.0038597 per 1,000 people
# 64 Azerbaijan: 0.00379171 per 1,000 people
# 65 Saudi Arabia: 0.00329321 per 1,000 people

 

[twoplustwoisfour]

^^
Please post the source as well.

I want to know this: are these the crime occurrence statistics or the crime reporting statistics? I mean, it would be fairly obvious why a woman would refuse to report rape in Islamic countries.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

^^
Please post the source as well.

I want to know this: are these the crime occurrence statistics or the crime reporting statistics? I mean, it would be fairly obvious why a woman would refuse to report rape in Islamic countries.

I dont know where did he get his statistic from But here is Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country

Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

Total crimes (most recent) by country

Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

I agree with you that it may be the reason that some peoples don't report rape crime not only in islamic countries but also even in usa , uk , india for different reasons

 

[Haseebullah]

I dont know where did he get his statistic from But here is Rapes (per capita) (most recent) by country

Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.

Total crimes (most recent) by country

Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

I agree with you that it may be the reason that some peoples don't report rape crime not only in islamic countries but also even in usa , uk , india for different reasons

Yes,i got it from the first link.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

^^
Please post the source as well.

I want to know this: are these the crime occurrence statistics or the crime reporting statistics? I mean, it would be fairly obvious why a woman would refuse to report rape in Islamic countries.

Well,we cant really go around every other neighborhood asking for an assaulted woman.

 

[Hafizzz]

I hope India and Pakistan apply this law. Few days back we had a robbery case where women in Burkha stole some precious jewelery and the CCTV only showed burkhas.

I hope India does not have this law :

Will India Face a Burqa Ban?
Will India Face a Burqa Ban? - India Real Time - WSJ

France’s ban on the burqa came into effect earlier this week. The law, which the French parliament approved last year, forbids people from concealing their faces in public. While it does not explicitly mention the full-body robe, the burqa is widely recognized as the ban’s main target. France, which is home to Europe’s largest Muslim community, is the first country to push through this controversial ban.

What implications does this have for India – a country which has one of the largest Muslim population in the world?

India’s 175 million Muslims make them the country’s largest minority. Around 60% are under 25 years of age, meaning this figure is likely to increase in coming years.

In India too tensions have occasionally flared up over the use of the burqa in public spaces. But Meraj A. Khan, a legal consultant with National Commission for Minorities told India Real Time that these were “isolated incidents.” He said the commission, which evaluates the progress of development of minorities and looks into complaints of discrimination, “rarely receives complaints on episodes involving … burqa-clad women.”

On France’s ban, Mr. Khan said that India is unlikely to follow suit. “In India, it is up to the individual when it comes to religion. Nobody can enforce such things here.”

In recent years there have been several incidents involving the burqa.

In 2009, a state college in Karnataka, told a student she was not allowed to attend classes wearing a burqa. It was later reported that the young girl reached a “compromise arrangement” with the college but did not continue in the same college.

Days later, violent protests sparked in Hyderabad after a college principal allegedly told students not to wear a burqa.

But opposite episodes have also occurred. In July 2010, a teacher at Kolkata’s Aliah University, which has a focus on Islamic studies, was not allowed to teach without a burqa. The report followed an official notice released in April 2010, in which the university dismissed suggestions it enforced a dress code, mentioning specifically the use of the burqa within its campus.

Noorjehan Safia Niaz, a founding member of Bhartiya Muslim Mahila Andolan, a movement which works to improve the status of Muslim women in India, said security concerns have not been a major issue when it comes to dress. “Muslim women in India comply with all the laws. They are active participants when it comes to elections and have their photos on their passports. So identification and security have never been an issue as such,” she said.

Discrimination, however, has sometimes caused problems, said Ms. Niaz. “There are cases when women are not considered for a particular job because they wear a burqa. In such cases, women have negotiated. They do not wear burqa while at work but before and after it they put it on.” Overall, Ms. Niaz said that women themselves – not the law – should decide what to wear. “Let each woman decide what she wants to wear. Neither can you enforce a ban on burqa nor can you force women to wear it.”

Some political forces in India, including the right-wing Hindu nationalist party Shiv Sena, would favor a ban. Citing security concerns, Neelam Gorhe, spokesperson for Shiva Sena, said that the party “welcomes the ban by the French government.” Although the party has not demanded an outright ban, it suggested there should be some restrictions on where people would be allowed to wear the burqa. She mentioned poll booths as an example of where it should not be allowed.

 

[srsrsr]

Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how

Theocratic State: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles

Secular state Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.

Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state? If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.

If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else

Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?

You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )

I fairly agree with the first part of post and questioning on France's choice.

However there's one more attribute of a non theocratic state i.e nation important than religion. So on borderline topics between nation and religion , nation gets the benefit of doubt, that's what France has gone with

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I fairly agree with the first part of post and questioning on France's choice.

However there's one more attribute of a non theocratic state i.e nation important than religion. So on borderline topics between nation and religion , nation gets the benefit of doubt, that's what France has gone with

Dude I am sorry but i did not understand your point. Can you elaborate it? Why you think this discussion is about Nation vs Religion?

I mean how wearing a specific dress code by some French national violate the interest of French nation? The reason they give to ban burqa is that it hides the identity of a person, what proof do they have that all the crimes committed in France are done by veiled women wearing burqas?

If it is concerned with only the identification problem; will President Nicholas surkozy allow the Muslim women to wear abaya with long scarves revealing their faces? What if president surkozy did not like the traditional indian dress sari in future ? would it be right for him to ban sari too? Even if the burqa represents oppression for Sarkozy, does not mean it represents that to people who actually wear it. Therefore, it must those women’s decision, if they want to wear for their own personal reasons

This ban will not help secure the country. If someone wants to commit a crime, she or he will commit it whether she wears a burqa or not. This will not stop the crime cases as well. Therefore, even if this law has good reasons, they are not feasible ones

 

[jdme]

everyone has a right to wear reasonable dress its basic human rights..........they call themselves the protectors of human rights but they themselves do against it...........if wearing a simple reasonable dress can can make then angry then they should stop singing the song of harmony among religions and peace they should stop fooling the world in name of human rights...............they showed their double standard many times they show their hate against islam and muslims..............their priests burn our HOLY BOOK their news paper disrespect our PROPHET (PBUH) but no one raised their voice against them but when it comes to muslims they come against us without any reason

Simple reasonable dress? I can fancy myself clad in all black in 90 degrees F! See that's where the problem is, this idea of what "reasonable" means for one people and non so reasonable for another.


There is no THEY. French government didn't ask anyone to burn books. May be in Muslim world all humans have one "collective" mind, in West everyone is an individual, fully capable of making their own choice. By the way, you can go to US and burn any holy book of your desire. I promise you, they will not chop your head off or stone you to death unlike some countries I know. Jesus and Christianity (and other religions) get mocked in west all the time. Problem here is not west but how Muslim countries want west to treat religion especially Islam in their own boundaries! Have you seen France demanding Saudi Arabia that Christians be given this and this right?

 

[jdme]

Dude I am sorry but i did not understand your point. Can you elaborate it? Why you think this discussion is about Nation vs Religion?

I mean how wearing a specific dress code by some French national violate the interest of French nation? The reason they give to ban burqa is that it hides the identity of a person, what proof do they have that all the crimes committed in France are done by veiled women wearing burqas?

If it is concerned with only the identification problem; will President Nicholas surkozy allow the Muslim women to wear abaya with long scarves revealing their faces? What if president surkozy did not like the traditional indian dress sari in future ? would it be right for him to ban sari too? Even if the burqa represents oppression for Sarkozy, does not mean it represents that to people who actually wear it. Therefore, it must those women’s decision, if they want to wear for their own personal reasons

This ban will not help secure the country. If someone wants to commit a crime, she or he will commit it whether she wears a burqa or not. This will not stop the crime cases as well. Therefore, even if this law has good reasons, they are not feasible ones

Are you actually hoping for a response on this

 

[jdme]

I know right now you will be finding it very hard to relate the above quoted text with my argument so let me do the hard work for you.

As it states a secular society isn't exactly supposed to impose a religion on their population so banning people from practicing a religious practice is kind of forcing them to lean towards your way of the society ithus imposing a religious restriction on them.

We don't exactly follow the surprisingly stupid saying
"When in Rome ,do what Romans do."

We tend to remain consistent in our practical beliefs rather than other people.

1) You are confusing the hell out of me.
2) Yes. When you live in France, you either adopt to French way of lifestyle overtime or respect it. Don't confuse culture with religion. Polygamy is banned in all western nations. Now is that taking away the rights of Muslims? What about stoning people to death? Answer is simple, only practices that are compatible with French society/law or French people think are fine will be allowed,

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

JDME @ Did you read my previous post . You are doing same thing again by comparing theocratic state with secular. French is not Christian country lol
You are saying it with pride that Christianity and other religion get mocked in west. Why any sane person will mock religion or will burn religious scripture?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Are you actually hoping for a response on this

why not..go ahead

 

[jdme]

Why you feel the need to compare "theocratic" state with "secular state" when they are two totally different form of Government. Let me tell you how

Theocratic State: Religion play an important role in Government decisions. Most laws of state derive from religious scripture of local peoples. Islamic state will be based on Islamic principles

Secular state Religion don't play any role in government decision. Peoples can practice their religion in their private day to day lives but Government will not use any religious scripture to make laws for its peoples. Secular state will be based on secular principles.

Now question arise : Is France a secular state or theocratic state? If they claim to be secular then then they should have secular laws and these laws give freedom to peoples to practice their religion in their private life as long as they don't hurt any other member of the society. Most western Government claim that Saudia government don't give right to women to wear Bikini and bra in public and they oppress women with their Islamic concept of modesty but then they go and do the same by taking away the right of women to wear niqab.

If these different government doing the same thing then they should not preach that western secular government give women more rights as compare to theocratic state. I am not talking about just wearing niqab but they should also allow Christian to wear cross as it dont hurt anyone else

Perhaps all the objections pertaining to a Muslim woman's veil have more to do with the beholders' mental attitude than with actual practical problems pertaining to mobility and comfort?

You, as a beholder, do not have to understand why the Muslim woman chooses to wear the veil, you do not have to accept it, you do not even have to agree to it, what you can do, though, is to respect her decision, her choice, to dress the way she does. Perhaps then we all can live and let live, in mutual peace and harmony, in this world : )

World has changed. In US, even after 9/11, there is no discussion of banning veil and what not for simple reason that American Muslims don't stand out. In western Europe, even after 2nd, 3rd generation, Muslims stand out. From European perspective, these people are not local. Why come to Europe if you wanna live like a religious Pakistani or Moroccan? Even in Europe, Muslims are the poorest of all minorities and it's not because they are more oppressed than any other minority. It's simple. Burqa clad woman is never going to "work" or have a normal life, normal here being the way French might live. If it were peaceful times, it would not have bugged them so much. It's not. There is major tension between Muslim world and west in general. Live and let live is hardly working, is it?