France - Pakistan , Avionics & possibly Plane deal revival, Post cancellation of MRCA

[MastanKhan]

Maybe now PAF will think about EFT or other jets (j10 etc) because EFT is expensive too and i don't think now france will give us the avionics esp after the finalization of this deal what do you think?

Hi,

The paf needs to re-visit the J10.

 

[Erroroverload]

Hi,

The paf needs to re-visit the J10.

No
we need better than that.

 

[MastanKhan]

No
we need better than that.

Hi,

So what happened to the MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE drama.

 

[Alpha Fighter]

Hi,

The paf needs to re-visit the J10.

J10 deal is nothing more then dream. its more older then Rafael deal.

 

[Thunder.Storm]

J10 deal is nothing more then dream. its more older then Rafael deal.

No Paf is not going for J-10. And there is difference between two deals you can't compare both. We can get j-10 but actually we don't want to get it so it is not Paf dream.Paf will take jft to j-10 level may be in some ways.

 

[MastanKhan]

No Paf is not going for J-10. And there is difference between two deals you can't compare both. We can get j-10 but actually we don't want to get it so it is not Paf dream.Paf will take jft to j-10 level may be in some ways.

Hi,

Because of its size---the JF17 will never catch upto the J10.

The ideal size for the JF17 is the japanese F2.

J10 deal is nothing more then dream. its more older then Rafael deal.

Hi,

Okay---thank you for the input.

 

[Abingdonboy]

WEll if the typhoon came to PAF......The whole ASIA has no fighter for its match.....But Cost......

I think the Rafale and MKI would have something to say a both that

 

[thrilainmanila]

if PAF thinks that the J-31 is going to be some sort of savior like the JF-17 they are well and truly bigger buffoons then i realized. The JF17 even with massive upgrades will get halted by the Rafale, the J-31 will get downed too, The PAF needs to sit down with uncle china and ask them for the J-21 anything less then this is unacceptable they then need to work with the turks who people on PDF seem infatuated with to work with them on there own 5th generation project.

people need to understand that at best the JF-17 is a lightweight fighter not made for combating the elite fighters of the IAF but to provide mid-high tech capability which PAF lacked throughout the 90s and early 2000s such as BVR. In a Combat scenario with fighter like Rafale and SU-30MKI they'll get obliterated.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Hi,

Because of its size---the JF17 will never catch upto the J10.

The ideal size for the JF17 is the japanese F2.



Hi,

Okay---thank you for the input.

JF-17 = F2 never.

1) The difference is JF-17 is Light combat aircraft.
2) Small size lower RCS
3) Small size is also difficult to spot in areal combat.
4) JF-17 is cheap hence 4 for 1 with Rafale on price. Numbers would change the scenario completely with a decent weapons and aesa radar.

F2 is the size of J-31. When and how J-31 is going to be procured is all important.

If today Pakistan enter the war against ISIS all equipment will be available be it Russian, French, British, US or Chinese. Money would also flow from various sources.

if PAF thinks that the J-31 is going to be some sort of savior like the JF-17 they are well and truly bigger buffoons then i realized. The JF17 even with massive upgrades will get halted by the Rafale, the J-31 will get downed too, The PAF needs to sit down with uncle china and ask them for the J-21 anything less then this is unacceptable they then need to work with the turks who people on PDF seem infatuated with to work with them on there own 5th generation project.

people need to understand that at best the JF-17 is a lightweight fighter not made for combating the elite fighters of the IAF but to provide mid-high tech capability which PAF lacked throughout the 90s and early 2000s such as BVR. In a Combat scenario with fighter like Rafale and SU-30MKI they'll get obliterated.

It could well be possible to have both J-31's and TFX in future giving Low and High mix and some thing else that is under development. For IAF there problem is to increase to counter 2 front war and also replace old fighter aircraft in a very short time.

 

[Immortan.Joe]

if PAF thinks that the J-31 is going to be some sort of savior like the JF-17 they are well and truly bigger buffoons then i realized. The JF17 even with massive upgrades will get halted by the Rafale, the J-31 will get downed too, The PAF needs to sit down with uncle china and ask them for the J-21 anything less then this is unacceptable they then need to work with the turks who people on PDF seem infatuated with to work with them on there own 5th generation project.

people need to understand that at best the JF-17 is a lightweight fighter not made for combating the elite fighters of the IAF but to provide mid-high tech capability which PAF lacked throughout the 90s and early 2000s such as BVR. In a Combat scenario with fighter like Rafale and SU-30MKI they'll get obliterated.

It could well be possible to have both J-31's and TFX in future giving Low and High mix and some thing else that is under development. For IAF there problem is to increase to counter 2 front war and also replace old fighter aircraft in a very short time.

What is this reason of Pakistani infatuation with TFX?

Granted, it is being part manufactured by Turkey, but most of its critical parts would be either made in USA or made in Europe, thus suffering from safe export control law that Pakistan wants to avoid.

If you want to go for TFX, why not go for the real deal? F-35.

 

[thrilainmanila]

JF-17 = F2 never.

1) The difference is JF-17 is Light combat aircraft.
2) Small size lower RCS
3) Small size is also difficult to spot in areal combat.
4) JF-17 is cheap hence 4 for 1 with Rafale on price. Numbers would change the scenario completely with a decent weapons and aesa radar.

F2 is the size of J-31. When and how J-31 is going to be procured is all important.

If today Pakistan enter the war against ISIS all equipment will be available be it Russian, French, British, US or Chinese. Money would also flow from various sources.


It could well be possible to have both J-31's and TFX in future giving Low and High mix and some thing else that is under development. For IAF there problem is to increase to counter 2 front war and also replace old fighter aircraft in a very short time.

a rafale is a force multiplyer in itself. the SU-30MKIs are force multiploers, you honestly think in a scanario they'll send there aircraft 1 at a time to give us a fair shot? your dreaming.

 

[salarsikander]

If Chinese make avionics why bother with integration costs of French avionics ??

Is diversifying a bit bad thing?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well - diversification is always good idea.

If we look at Egypt - Saudia- China - USA they have different platforms different tech etc

We have legitimate need so it makes 100% sense obviously it is not a stealth plane so we understand but it is a stop gap type solution , and if we feel we don't want stealth plane , we can get more of same

I just like the French option more as it is closer to our traditional stance and we have some good infrastructure for french gadgets and in past we had some decent work done

If the deal does not goes thru so reluctantly we will seek other options

None of it would matter if just had 30-4 F16 C/D available for purchase large orders

 

[MastanKhan]

JF-17 = F2 never.

1) The difference is JF-17 is Light combat aircraft.
2) Small size lower RCS
3) Small size is also difficult to spot in areal combat.
4) JF-17 is cheap hence 4 for 1 with Rafale on price. Numbers would change the scenario completely with a decent weapons and aesa radar.

F2 is the size of J-31. When and how J-31 is going to be procured is all important.

If today Pakistan enter the war against ISIS all equipment will be available be it Russian, French, British, US or Chinese. Money would also flow from various sources.


It could well be possible to have both J-31's and TFX in future giving Low and High mix and some thing else that is under development. For IAF there problem is to increase to counter 2 front war and also replace old fighter aircraft in a very short time.

Hi,

Senor---when you bring out RCS----it means that you are just repeating what you have read----.

With current radars---aesa---rcs does not mean much---smaller or larger unless it is stealth. An aesa will find you regardless of your size---.

Your saving grace is the potency of your BVR missiles---and your electronic jamming capabilities.

Just like pakistanis talk about the rcs of the su30-----. Paf can do nothing to the su 30 just because it has a large rcs----the su30 larger has a much much larger radar inside of its nose cone---.

That radar has a much longer range and will detect the JF17 before the JF17 detects the larger su30.

It was described very clearly by one our our very esteemed posters from the U S.

More I read your post---the more sillier it gets----cheap never solved the problem against quality.

Just because it is 4 times cheaper does not mean that you would be putting 4 times the numbers against each Rafale.

Any high tech engineers here----or Surgeons over here-----guys---can 4 draftsmen do your job ( to engineers )---to surgeons---( can an orderly / nurse ) do your job.

Your need to stop winging and start thinking----what does F2 mean-----it means Japan---and who is the enemy---China----what is the size of Japan---small---what is the size of china---big---.

Now how about pakistan---small---and india----do you get the drift---.

Why did Japan---one of the most technically advanced nation was not satisfied with the size of the F16 and why it had to build it around 20% larger?

It was to fly for an optimal time---to carry an optimal load---to be able to have an optimal sized radar---to carry optimal sized electronics package against a much larger enemy.

Other than that---the F16 was the perfect sized aircraft.

a rafale is a force multiplyer in itself. the SU-30MKIs are force multiploers, you honestly think in a scanario they'll send there aircraft 1 at a time to give us a fair shot? your dreaming.

Hi,

They have superior aircraft---and they are already 3 times the number----.

Pakistanis have been fed a STUPID PILL by the paf for the last 46 years.

if PAF thinks that the J-31 is going to be some sort of savior like the JF-17 they are well and truly bigger buffoons then i realized. The JF17 even with massive upgrades will get halted by the Rafale, the J-31 will get downed too, The PAF needs to sit down with uncle china and ask them for the J-21 anything less then this is unacceptable they then need to work with the turks who people on PDF seem infatuated with to work with them on there own 5th generation project.

people need to understand that at best the JF-17 is a lightweight fighter not made for combating the elite fighters of the IAF but to provide mid-high tech capability which PAF lacked throughout the 90s and early 2000s such as BVR. In a Combat scenario with fighter like Rafale and SU-30MKI they'll get obliterated.

Hi,

Let me ride piggy back on your post---.

Do the pakistani fanboys really think that your JF17 can take on the prime fighter aircraft of the world number 2 super power in technology ( france )?

 

[ghazi768]

Well if we logically look at it we showed interest back in 2006 in RAFALE

Formal interest , however then as you know we had earth quake and flood issues so many defense deals were sidelined, even our modest order for F16 in that time was reduced due to it

Also , there was the MRCA deal which caused us to not get the package what we were after for Avionics

2007 the MRCA caued our 1.5 Billion to 2.0 Billion project to be sidelined when funds did become available post calamity of floods

So realistically , France needs customers , and we are a pretty solid customer - considering we have need for 190-200 planes which need replacement.

Rafale project cost around 93 Billion dollars, and obviously it is a good platform for us
Ideal gap plane between 4.0 and 6th Generation platform

Now , with Thunder being in Block 2 STAGE , the only way we can integrate French Avionics is perhaps in Block 4, I am sure R&D for Block 3 is already taking place

But realistically we do need to retire Mirages and to replace it with French plane would be morally right considering they have assisted us , in past

*We really need a partner where we can order , and there is no "RED TAPE" just smooth order process and delivery , so we can just move on with this upgrade of our planes

This few F16 here and there deal does not work anymore

Example:
Turkey orders their plane gets it in quantity (decent quantity)
Egypt orders their planes gets it in quantity
Saudia orders their Typhoon and they get it in large quantity in time


It should be rapid for us since we are technically members of certain cooperative memberships

The delay in F16 personally has left a bad taste

I mean when we ordered our Mirage in 90's we had a quick acceptable ROI (Return on investment)

MIRAGE has a fan base equal as that of F16

Don't get me wrong I love the planes (F16) but just sorta Ridiculous that we have to wait for long time for 'em - when national security dictates we should update 190-200 planes


Out of the 3 interesting deals , we have good partnership with French
Otherwise Sukhoi is a lovely plane
Gripen is always a nice compact bird as well

View attachment 300239

93 billion dollar for 190 plus rafale! Kuch zayada nahi ho gaya. Have dollars started growing on trees in Pakistan. Let me know how did you arrive at this 93 billion$ figure?

Although I think that your purpose may be actually to taunt and tease Indians rather than seriously vie for this. So in interest of furthering this discussion, I'll try to present an opposite opinion. So let look at it in a different way:

Force posture and availability:
190 plane with a 93 billion $ is too un-believable, lets cut it down to a believable size. Let say 50 rafales, each will cost 100+ million$, and purchasing relevant weapons, maintenance and services will cost about 150+ millions each (just a guesstimate, kept on the lower side, from looking at figures in media from egypt sale as well as indian proposal). That will translate into about 5+ billion$ for actual planes and 7.5+ billion$ in weapons, services etc. What this will translate in force availability in an intense week long campaign? Let us just make a raw estimate:

For each hour of flight it is quoted in different sources to have maintenance of 12-15 hours and as they will brand new let's suppose that 90% will be general availability at any time. For week long campaign that means
available fighter at any time to fly: 45
available sorties per day per fighter: (24*7/12)/7 = 2
sorties available in a week for force size of 50 fighters = 2 * 45 * 7 = 630

Now let us assume we ditch this option and spend 5 billion$ on purchasing JF 17 and the other 7.5 bn$ on raising squadrons and all associated staff and facilities to service those JF-17s. It will probably cost roughly 20 million$ a piece so we'll have about 250 additional fighters to add to the service.
Although I think no data is available in public about service time per hour of flight for JF-17 and they will also be brand new systems in start but lets handicap them assuming them to be low grade and roughly equilant to older F-16A/B in US service which are in some sources mentioned to have 20 hours service time per hour of flight and having same availability as rafales @ 90%.
Available fighters at any time to fly = 250 * .9 = 225
available sorties per day per fighter = 1.2
sorties available per week = 1890 sorties

A Jf-17 fighter force will have 3 times more sorties available for decision makers in a 7 days intense air campaign than a rafale based fleet to use for defensive or offensive operations.

Hi,

Senor---when you bring out RCS----it means that you are just repeating what you have read----.

With current radars---aesa---rcs does not mean much---smaller or larger unless it is stealth. An aesa will find you regardless of your size---.

Your saving grace is the potency of your BVR missiles---and your electronic jamming capabilities.

Just like pakistanis talk about the rcs of the su30-----. Paf can do nothing to the su 30 just because it has a large rcs----the su30 larger has a much much larger radar inside of its nose cone---.

That radar has a much longer range and will detect the JF17 before the JF17 detects the larger su30.

It was described very clearly by one our our very esteemed posters from the U S.

More I read your post---the more sillier it gets----cheap never solved the problem against quality.

Just because it is 4 times cheaper does not mean that you would be putting 4 times the numbers against each Rafale.

Any high tech engineers here----or Surgeons over here-----guys---can 4 draftsmen do your job ( to engineers )---to surgeons---( can an orderly / nurse ) do your job.

Your need to stop winging and start thinking----what does F2 mean-----it means Japan---and who is the enemy---China----what is the size of Japan---small---what is the size of china---big---.

Now how about pakistan---small---and india----do you get the drift---.

Why did Japan---one of the most technically advanced nation was not satisfied with the size of the F16 and why it had to build it around 20% larger?

It was to fly for an optimal time---to carry an optimal load---to be able to have an optimal sized radar---to carry optimal sized electronics package against a much larger enemy.

Other than that---the F16 was the perfect sized aircraft.



Hi,

They have superior aircraft---and they are already 3 times the number----.

Pakistanis have been fed a STUPID PILL by the paf for the last 46 years.



Hi,

Let me ride piggy back on your post---.

Do the pakistani fanboys really think that your JF17 can take on the prime fighter aircraft of the world number 2 super power in technology ( france )?

1. You are wrong, AESA radars for same power input has lesser range than even ordinary planar array radars. The benefit they provide is LPI.

2. You are wrong again, if SU-30 is using its radar it will be visible on RWRs and other ground and air based receivers hundred of kms before it even may have any chance of detecting a Jf-17 which does have a smaller RCS. It may not provide a direct fire control track to a JF-17 but may end up getting this generated from other assets in air and ground.

3. Your are wrong again using some stupid useless analogies irrelevant to air war tactics and doctrines. A professional force with a higher availability, sorties rate and even equivalent depletion rates will win the day.

4. Yes indeed a JF-17 can take on a Rafale even in a one to one fight. Rafale had better instant turn rate and can maintain a higher alpha but ends up depleting much more energy in doing this. Also it has higher drag to thrust and lower thrust to weight ratio.