khanasifm
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2008
- Messages
- 7,082
- Reaction score
- 6
France interested in partnership with PAC
- Thread starter Windjammer
- Start date
khanasifm
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2008
- Messages
- 7,082
- Reaction score
- 6
Imran Khan
PDF VETERAN
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2007
- Messages
- 68,815
- Reaction score
- 5
- Country
- Location
we are reading it every year since 2004
AZADPAKISTAN2009
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2009
- Messages
- 37,669
- Reaction score
- 68
- Country
- Location
We have all what we need some cooperation on Space Tech or Simulators would be nice to have
Block I: JF-17 Thunders
Block II: JF-17 Thunders
Block II Variant B: JF-17 Thunders
JF-17 , Block III Comming Soon
Already participating in Trainings and showing our capabilities
Beautiful Thunders stealing the show
Even Honorary Guest at Parade
Block I: JF-17 Thunders
Block II: JF-17 Thunders
Block II Variant B: JF-17 Thunders
JF-17 , Block III Comming Soon
Already participating in Trainings and showing our capabilities
Beautiful Thunders stealing the show
Even Honorary Guest at Parade
Last edited:
CriticalThought
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2016
- Messages
- 7,094
- Reaction score
- 13
- Country
- Location
The previous deal was about hot area harnesses. May I ask where you got the information about the specifics of the current deal?
Ahmet Pasha
BANNED
- Joined
- May 23, 2017
- Messages
- 10,024
- Reaction score
- -5
- Country
- Location
The French will try to highjack JFT and try to bring ruin to PAC.
flameboard
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,696
- Reaction score
- 0
France has had very poor luck in selling Rafales with only recent successes.
Pakistan's planes have started selling shortly after mass production. French companies most likely want to be a part of this wave and will likely offer equipment for the JF-17, but they have pulled out before as people have mentioned.
There is something to be gained from this for Pakistan, but companies working on this will have to be smart.
Pakistan's planes have started selling shortly after mass production. French companies most likely want to be a part of this wave and will likely offer equipment for the JF-17, but they have pulled out before as people have mentioned.
There is something to be gained from this for Pakistan, but companies working on this will have to be smart.
Thorough Pro
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2008
- Messages
- 13,232
- Reaction score
- -21
- Country
- Location
Please help us, name a few with moral backbone.... forget the back bone just morals will do.
JohnWick
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2018
- Messages
- 3,084
- Reaction score
- -2
- Country
- Location
Above 2 are somewhat photoshopped or real one ?We have all what we need some cooperation on Space Tech or Simulators would be nice to have
Block I: JF-17 Thunders
Block II: JF-17 Thunders
Block II Variant B: JF-17 Thunders
JF-17 , Block III Comming Soon
Already participating in Trainings and showing our capabilities
Beautiful Thunders stealing the show
Even Honorary Guest at Parade
Thorough Pro
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2008
- Messages
- 13,232
- Reaction score
- -21
- Country
- Location
Knowing a little history save a lot of humiliation.
PAC is nothing but an extension of Mirage rebuild factory established with the help of Swaziland.
PAC is nothing but an extension of Mirage rebuild factory established with the help of Swaziland.
AZADPAKISTAN2009
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2009
- Messages
- 37,669
- Reaction score
- 68
- Country
- Location
JohnWick
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2018
- Messages
- 3,084
- Reaction score
- -2
- Country
- Location
What's the name of this exercise?
Allahistan
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2018
- Messages
- 19
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
I personally agree with both people those who say stay away from french or those who say go with caution. Here is middle ground we should think about. Its food for thought.
French should stay away from any major involvement with PAC except K-polymer based composite. which is basically essentially carbon fibre in a thermoplastic matrix resin. It does not have to carbon fibre. They keyword is thermoplastic.
The thermoplastic composites are quiet old now for example avimid-K (a kind of thermoplastic composites) were used in F-22, F-23, B-2 and more recently similar technology prepeg were used in F-35. These are your standard composites for stealth.
In pure form thermosetplastics are very durable (and not very stealthy) and are not effected by moisture etc. However, use of carbon nanotubes encapsulating other magnetic particles based RAM for stealth, can significantly reduce the strength and increased their susceptibility to temperature, humidity and flight based degradation. that's why F-22 requires up to 124 hours per hour on bad days (read it in congress report somewhere).
The B-2 rather excessively used K-polymer based composite using avimid-K prepegs. They were also used in nortrop YF-23 and are used throughout F-22 as well as F-35 (with RAM interspersed). Northrop was able to create the largest (now routine) composite laminate which was used as engine covering.
I do not know the exact percentage of carbon nanotube (single wall only since multiwall were not available then) interspersed in F-22, but I am sure it was less or equal to 15% (weakens the structure otherwise too much). The purpose of carbon nanotube with magentic nanoparticles within them and on them is to absorb microwaves (i.e. high frequency radar waves) that is in plain English make them stealthy. The thermoplastic composite becomes stealth integrated composite.
India likely to use multi-wall carbon nanotube encapsulating 3D magnetic nano-particles as to create RAM integrated thermoplastic composites since this is best what current technology allows and is a standard used in US, Europe, China, Turkey, and elsewhere. India will get the best practices training for them from US. Turkey is producing composites for F-35 using same process. Once we have some rought estimates of india's shape and internal and external structure, we should be able to calculate their RCS within a reasonable range (i.e. Using asymptotic approximations of electrodynamics valid for high frequency radar, i.e. X-band).
Pakistan already has the technology to produce arbitrary kind of nanocomposites including multi-wall carbon-nanotube integrated thermoplastic composites (as revealed below), even our university research was funded (yea I know "a nuclear related research center did that" but lets not talk about it).
Pakistan already now produces graphene (for Azm Stealth fighter). By the way Graphen based nanoparitcles are being used in F-35 stealth (read US airforce research along with DARPA. they only tell what they are researching, enough for us to figure out, and further verified when we put together their long list of US contractors in complex tables, to see who specializes in what, we just need a hint, we can then carry out our own technical/engineering analysis to find out what is going on ).
Graphene based nanoparticles are one of the top RAM for nanocomposites so they are best choice speciallly when combined with carbon nanotube. Graphene is expensive though. we can synthesis other magnetic 3D nanoparticles but graphene has its good side.
In short using graphene one can synthesis precise 3D nanoparticle with absorption ability for quit a broad band stealth.
These nanopartricle can then be embedded the above mentioned thermoplastic composites to create great stealth structures. They can be combined with carbon nano tubes to create the best of best stealth in the world right now available (F-35, J-20 etc).
Plus active graphene surfaces will be used in 6th generation fighters (highly likely).
Just in case you "pakistan doubting people" that pakistan cannot create advanced F-35 grade stealth nanocopposites, well you are in surprise.
Pakistan is way ahead then many people think. I can't talk about military program. but i can definitely discussed university program. Here is from NUST research (go to NUST research Project and look up yourself, there are even more than listed here.):
since graphene based material is expensive clearly Pakistan wants to chemicaly synthesis it to save cost.
Now here is NUST uni site projects. Notice how Pakistan is hiding their purpose:
Synthesis of functionalized graphene based nano-composites my comments: YES for stealth structures
Synthesis and characterization of ZnO nanoparticles by sol-gel process and their catalytic studies (my comment: ZnO nanoparticles are x-band radar absorbers too,).
Synthesis and characterization of self-assembled nanoenergetic aluminum-ferric oxide thermite system (my comments: somebody wants to built extremely powerful bombs, compact explosives to compress nuclear cores in Nuclear weapons to make small boosted weapons and future high performance Composite missile Propellants to get to uncle sam may be).
Doping/functionalization and characterization of mono and few layer graphene (my comment: F-35 like stealth paint or painted sheets on Azm).
Synthesis and characterization of nano materials structures (my comment: RAM and everything else i.e. other industrial nanoparticle applications.
Studies on the burning of coated and uncoated micro and nano-sized aluminum particles (near future missile fuel high performance one).
Synthesis and studies of functionalized graphene based nanocomposites (for aircraft, stealth and everything else).
The point is even Pakistanis universities are now researching advanced stuff. Pakistan can independentally produce RAM integrated nanocomposites for extreme stealth.
Its just universities can spend more money and their setting is more costly than industrial settings. Some fine tuning is needed to cut the costs.
But french have already fine tuned large scale manufacturing that is cost EFFICIENT.
if WE CAN LEARN THEIR BEST PRACTICES, it will enable us to get things cheaper. Chinese may or may not share their practical experiences to complete degree forcing us to just buy their prepegs.
NOTE we have Turkey that already producing RAM integrated nanocomposites with great precision and skill. WE in Pakistan did research I think mostly to continue to advance academic expertise. Otherwise Turkey would have shared its research (not F-35 related). Close cooperation with Turkey is highly desirable and in the long term will lead to more open and more complex joint research than say "certain other countries". Being a brother, Turkey is much more open to share and without those conditions.
Yes Pakistan can get large scale manufacturing too and make RAM integrated nanocomposites, its just extension of pakistan's research but ready made experience sharing is not a bad thing. One you can make one aircraft structure you can do it for 10 at once. But how to go for 10, sometimes involves cheaper pathways and therefore we can get others' experience to save some money.
We also need to get specially those coatings that protect these composits from flight degradation.
The F-22 is maintenance heavy (its ram keeps falling off) and so is B-2 due to not having those protective layers . I mean you have to read maintenance hours on these things. US and everyone else now has them but its seems not much suitable for older skin of B-2.
we want to avoid that so we want to have those coatings. WE can make them (but costly) and get them from china but getting a unique sample from French won't hurt.
But that' just food for thought. I personally think we should do everything ourselves, with some cooperation from Turkey. In the long term working with Turkey is better. It will save us lot of trouble. otherwise it gonna cost more to work on everything.
I am too tired so I won't be able to reply, my apologies in advance, as I can't think straight now. Also I have business meetings whole week so can't come here either. Hopefully no body needs my input.
French should stay away from any major involvement with PAC except K-polymer based composite. which is basically essentially carbon fibre in a thermoplastic matrix resin. It does not have to carbon fibre. They keyword is thermoplastic.
The thermoplastic composites are quiet old now for example avimid-K (a kind of thermoplastic composites) were used in F-22, F-23, B-2 and more recently similar technology prepeg were used in F-35. These are your standard composites for stealth.
In pure form thermosetplastics are very durable (and not very stealthy) and are not effected by moisture etc. However, use of carbon nanotubes encapsulating other magnetic particles based RAM for stealth, can significantly reduce the strength and increased their susceptibility to temperature, humidity and flight based degradation. that's why F-22 requires up to 124 hours per hour on bad days (read it in congress report somewhere).
The B-2 rather excessively used K-polymer based composite using avimid-K prepegs. They were also used in nortrop YF-23 and are used throughout F-22 as well as F-35 (with RAM interspersed). Northrop was able to create the largest (now routine) composite laminate which was used as engine covering.
I do not know the exact percentage of carbon nanotube (single wall only since multiwall were not available then) interspersed in F-22, but I am sure it was less or equal to 15% (weakens the structure otherwise too much). The purpose of carbon nanotube with magentic nanoparticles within them and on them is to absorb microwaves (i.e. high frequency radar waves) that is in plain English make them stealthy. The thermoplastic composite becomes stealth integrated composite.
India likely to use multi-wall carbon nanotube encapsulating 3D magnetic nano-particles as to create RAM integrated thermoplastic composites since this is best what current technology allows and is a standard used in US, Europe, China, Turkey, and elsewhere. India will get the best practices training for them from US. Turkey is producing composites for F-35 using same process. Once we have some rought estimates of india's shape and internal and external structure, we should be able to calculate their RCS within a reasonable range (i.e. Using asymptotic approximations of electrodynamics valid for high frequency radar, i.e. X-band).
Pakistan already has the technology to produce arbitrary kind of nanocomposites including multi-wall carbon-nanotube integrated thermoplastic composites (as revealed below), even our university research was funded (yea I know "a nuclear related research center did that" but lets not talk about it).
Pakistan already now produces graphene (for Azm Stealth fighter). By the way Graphen based nanoparitcles are being used in F-35 stealth (read US airforce research along with DARPA. they only tell what they are researching, enough for us to figure out, and further verified when we put together their long list of US contractors in complex tables, to see who specializes in what, we just need a hint, we can then carry out our own technical/engineering analysis to find out what is going on ).
Graphene based nanoparticles are one of the top RAM for nanocomposites so they are best choice speciallly when combined with carbon nanotube. Graphene is expensive though. we can synthesis other magnetic 3D nanoparticles but graphene has its good side.
In short using graphene one can synthesis precise 3D nanoparticle with absorption ability for quit a broad band stealth.
These nanopartricle can then be embedded the above mentioned thermoplastic composites to create great stealth structures. They can be combined with carbon nano tubes to create the best of best stealth in the world right now available (F-35, J-20 etc).
Plus active graphene surfaces will be used in 6th generation fighters (highly likely).
Just in case you "pakistan doubting people" that pakistan cannot create advanced F-35 grade stealth nanocopposites, well you are in surprise.
Pakistan is way ahead then many people think. I can't talk about military program. but i can definitely discussed university program. Here is from NUST research (go to NUST research Project and look up yourself, there are even more than listed here.):
since graphene based material is expensive clearly Pakistan wants to chemicaly synthesis it to save cost.
Now here is NUST uni site projects. Notice how Pakistan is hiding their purpose:
Synthesis of functionalized graphene based nano-composites my comments: YES for stealth structures
Synthesis and characterization of ZnO nanoparticles by sol-gel process and their catalytic studies (my comment: ZnO nanoparticles are x-band radar absorbers too,).
Synthesis and characterization of self-assembled nanoenergetic aluminum-ferric oxide thermite system (my comments: somebody wants to built extremely powerful bombs, compact explosives to compress nuclear cores in Nuclear weapons to make small boosted weapons and future high performance Composite missile Propellants to get to uncle sam may be).
Doping/functionalization and characterization of mono and few layer graphene (my comment: F-35 like stealth paint or painted sheets on Azm).
Synthesis and characterization of nano materials structures (my comment: RAM and everything else i.e. other industrial nanoparticle applications.
Studies on the burning of coated and uncoated micro and nano-sized aluminum particles (near future missile fuel high performance one).
Synthesis and studies of functionalized graphene based nanocomposites (for aircraft, stealth and everything else).
The point is even Pakistanis universities are now researching advanced stuff. Pakistan can independentally produce RAM integrated nanocomposites for extreme stealth.
Its just universities can spend more money and their setting is more costly than industrial settings. Some fine tuning is needed to cut the costs.
But french have already fine tuned large scale manufacturing that is cost EFFICIENT.
if WE CAN LEARN THEIR BEST PRACTICES, it will enable us to get things cheaper. Chinese may or may not share their practical experiences to complete degree forcing us to just buy their prepegs.
NOTE we have Turkey that already producing RAM integrated nanocomposites with great precision and skill. WE in Pakistan did research I think mostly to continue to advance academic expertise. Otherwise Turkey would have shared its research (not F-35 related). Close cooperation with Turkey is highly desirable and in the long term will lead to more open and more complex joint research than say "certain other countries". Being a brother, Turkey is much more open to share and without those conditions.
Yes Pakistan can get large scale manufacturing too and make RAM integrated nanocomposites, its just extension of pakistan's research but ready made experience sharing is not a bad thing. One you can make one aircraft structure you can do it for 10 at once. But how to go for 10, sometimes involves cheaper pathways and therefore we can get others' experience to save some money.
We also need to get specially those coatings that protect these composits from flight degradation.
The F-22 is maintenance heavy (its ram keeps falling off) and so is B-2 due to not having those protective layers . I mean you have to read maintenance hours on these things. US and everyone else now has them but its seems not much suitable for older skin of B-2.
we want to avoid that so we want to have those coatings. WE can make them (but costly) and get them from china but getting a unique sample from French won't hurt.
But that' just food for thought. I personally think we should do everything ourselves, with some cooperation from Turkey. In the long term working with Turkey is better. It will save us lot of trouble. otherwise it gonna cost more to work on everything.
I am too tired so I won't be able to reply, my apologies in advance, as I can't think straight now. Also I have business meetings whole week so can't come here either. Hopefully no body needs my input.
Last edited:
Dreamer.
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2018
- Messages
- 745
- Reaction score
- 2
- Country
- Location
Indeed knowing a little history might have saved you a bit of humiliation, because what is now known as PAC actually started as F6 rebuild factory with the help of neither France or Swaziland but China.
Also, PAC is NOT "nothing but extension of Mirgae rebuild factory" as you stated, rather it is combination of many factories of which MRF is only one, neither first nor last.
This is the history of PAC according to their own website. Perhaps you should take a look.
https://www.pac.org.pk/history
And regardless of any assistance by france for MRF decades ago, PAC has come a long way since then and a few things have changed I would say from the days it was only overhauling and rebuilding stuff.
My point stands that france or any other western country cannot be trusted. And knowing the history in its totality and learning from it could save a lot of people a lot of humiliation in the future.
Similar threads
