France confirms talks with Pakistan on high-tech systems for fighter developed

[blain2]

I concur!

 

[Energon]

Other than the AESA, what else is unique about the F-16IN compared to the block 52+?

 

[EagleEyes]

The ACM himself said that PAF would choose Block-60 or another F-16 variant over Eurofighter and Rafale.

I hope what your saying is the case. By 2010+, we will see both Block 50s and JF-17WAs (Western avionics) operational in the PAF, and we would probably be in the final stages of acquiring more F-16 (another 18) with the 36 J-10s or so.

It sounds pretty good. Talk about being efficient!

 

[blain2]

Other than the AESA, what else is unique about the F-16IN compared to the block 52+?

Nothing much. The EW package may be offered with DRFM etc. Weapons suite will be the same. AESA will be the main selling point.

 

[Quwa]

There are multiple 'improvements & upgrades' in the F-16IN compared to Block-52+...that is based off a source of mine in the defence industry. Northrop Grumman and other firms involved have initiated projects to produce Super Falcons (Block-60, IN, Block-70, etc) to compete with Boeing. If the first PAF Block-52+ is inducted, I guarantee you the PAF would look at the next phase of F-16. The idea is to take on the Super Hornet, Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen-NG, MiG-35 and latest Sukhoi-27/30 variants on the market.

Nonetheless any decent AF releasing a tender for a 4.5 generation fighter, LM will send them an offer based on F-16. PAF never released a tender for such requirements...hence why would LM pour in money to draw up a new F-16 without a reason?

IAF issued the MRCA requirements, and LM recognized a new market - the same market Boeing was trying to capture...4.5 generation fighters. It is not India or MRCA which LM is centering its next F-16-series on...it IS Pakistan, Morocco, Turkey, Oman, Bahrain, etc. These countries are in the mud for the next phase of F-16s...they got the basic airframe, and are not in a position to go Eurofighter/Rafale.

 

[blain2]

There are multiple 'improvements & upgrades' in the F-16IN compared to Block-52+...that is based off a source of mine in the defence industry. Northrop Grumman and other firms involved have initiated projects to produce Super Falcons (Block-60, IN, Block-70, etc) to compete with Boeing. If the first PAF Block-52+ is inducted, I guarantee you the PAF would look at the next phase of F-16. The idea is to take on the Super Hornet, Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen-NG, MiG-35 and latest Sukhoi-27/30 variants on the market.

Nonetheless any decent AF releasing a tender for a 4.5 generation fighter, LM will send them an offer based on F-16. PAF never released a tender for such requirements...hence why would LM pour in money to draw up a new F-16 without a reason?

IAF issued the MRCA requirements, and LM recognized a new market - the same market Boeing was trying to capture...4.5 generation fighters. It is not India or MRCA which LM is centering its next F-16-series on...it IS Pakistan, Morocco, Turkey, Oman, Bahrain, etc. These countries are in the mud for the next phase of F-16s...they got the basic airframe, and are not in a position to go Eurofighter/Rafale.

Mark,

Mark my words (now this sounds funny ), the F-16IN will not be anything vastly different than whats coming down the assembly line. F-16 blk 60 was an effort funded by the UAEAF to go beyond the then envelope of performance being offered by LM on the F-16. The UAE dumped quite a bit of money into the program to make it happen. LM would not have gone it alone because of the JSF coming down the pike.

For LM to start up the F-16 development again is not happening from a realistic point of view. They have too much invested in the JSF and have quite a bit to lose if they start researching and developing a new version of the F-16 beyond the blk-60. Just the development cost of something would take the price in the Rafale to Typhoon range and if there are no buyers aside from India, don't expect the costs of the development to be eaten up by LM.

What I can tell is on offer is a customized and bastardized version of a blk-60 with India specific upgrades/additions/deletions from the options list. There is nothing "next generational" on this aircraft aside from a slightly tweaked AESA of the blk 60, improved EW suite....the weapons are the same as those available on blk 52/60.

Anything more customized would result in the F-16 losing its competitive value as the most appropriately priced aircraft offering the biggest bang for the buck in this IAF MMRCA deal.

Get ready for a media blitz by LM when it unveils its next-gen F-16 for India.. All the focus will be on the packaging of this solution.

 

[Quwa]

Mark,

Mark my words (now this sounds funny ), the F-16IN will not be anything vastly different than whats coming down the assembly line. F-16 blk 60 was an effort funded by the UAEAF to go beyond the then envelope of performance being offered by LM on the F-16. The UAE dumped quite a bit of money into the program to make it happen. LM would not have gone it alone because of the JSF coming down the pike.

For LM to start up the F-16 development again is not happening from a realistic point of view. They have too much invested in the JSF and have quite a bit to lose if they start researching and developing a new version of the F-16 beyond the blk-60. Just the development cost of something would take the price in the Rafale to Typhoon range and if there are no buyers aside from India, don't expect the costs of the development to be eaten up by LM.

What I can tell is on offer is a customized and bastardized version of a blk-60 with India specific upgrades/additions/deletions from the options list. There is nothing "next generational" on this aircraft aside from a slightly tweaked AESA of the blk 60, improved EW suite....the weapons are the same as those available on blk 52/60.

Anything more customized would result in the F-16 losing its competitive value as the most appropriately priced aircraft offering the biggest bang for the buck in this IAF MMRCA deal.

Get ready for a media blitz by LM when it unveils its next-gen F-16 for India.. All the focus will be on the packaging of this solution.

Yeah...but LM made it clear that it'd be willing if someone was willing to pay for the development. Besides that though...I think there are subsystems from the companies involved with LM - i.e. Northrop, the ECM/EW firms - that are developing new systems for F-16. Got to consider that countries like Turkey, Greece, Morocco, Israel, Pakistan, Oman, etc, will still use their Block-52+ frames for a long while. Northrop and Selex are already competing for the AESA segment with SABR and Vixen-750, respectively.

This F-16IN is drama...but the advantage of the Block-52+ airframe is there for LM to reap. Honestly...they know Morroco isn't going to buy Rafale or EF...they know Turkey won't...not Pakistan, Oman and Bahrain...not likely Israel...not sure about Greece and Singapore. Even if PAF ordered Block-60, it would induct them very smoothly thanks to the very basic airframe of Block-52+.

If the first 18 Block-52+ are delivered...chances are that PAF would consider bringing the new-built F-16 fleet to the original 54-72 mark - except the later 2/3 being of a more advanced type. I think something based off Block-60 is a possibility and perhaps a plan between PAF and LM - but LM won't announce it until IAF finishes off MRCA IMO. If all goes well...by 2010-2012 so many Western firms would be working with Pakistan, it wouldn't matter what they offer as long as it isn't radical.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

F-16 Line is dead as far is LM is concerned. Since MRCA deal requires 4.5 Gen LM is getting into it with F-16IN but as for the developement of F-16IN as a new 4.5 Gen Aircraft no way LM is going to Put its money on it since JSF is eating up all the money put in budgetting and will become a headache for the investing nations if delayed more.

 

[Energon]

If the F-16IN doesn't hold a certain level of variation and/or technical superiority over the blk52+ or blk60, the IAF is unlikely to pick it. This would give either Boeing or Dassault a better chance of pushing their product through.

 

[blain2]

If the F-16IN doesn't hold a certain level of variation and/or technical superiority over the blk52+ or blk60, the IAF is unlikely to pick it. This would give either Boeing or Dassault a better chance of pushing their product through.

I am not sure if you can discount the capabilties of blk 52 or 60 that easily. Other NATO airforces (with access to aircraft other than F-16 have gone for similar blocks) and in the case of Turkey and Greece, this would have been a big no-no (for two adversaries to pick the same aircraft) but they have stayed the course due to the varying options available on the F-16 and the levels to which you can customize (not develop) the aircraft. If IAF were to go for blk 60, that would essentially give the IAF an immense capability boost with the AESA. Add to this all of the currently operational US armament (which without doubt remains the best bet) and potentially Israeli EW technology.

A blk 60 with its AESA (or enhanced AESA) capability would be a pretty competitive package any which way you look at it. The range, weapons, radar all are better or in the same category as anything else available in the 4.5 gen aircraft on offer from any other country.

So my above post is not denigrating an Indianized blk 60. It has immense benefits and brings capabilities to the IAF that it currently does not have. The downside is if IAF come up with requirements like twin engine (survivability etc.) then F-16 loses its otherwise very competitive offering.

As far as F/A-18 is concerned, I too think that of the American hardware, the Suoer Hornet has the best chances. Rafale is probably nowhere in the top 3 due to issues such as single user/producer (French can put similar financial pressures as Russians on spares etc.).

I would say its anybody's guess as to what IAF will go with. I think if its American its the Super Hornet, otherwise its the Mig-35.

F-16, Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen unfortunately all have a factor or two stacked against them.

 

[Energon]

The F-16 Block 52+, 60 et al are certainly very good platforms, however unless the F-16IN is in some ways different, it puts the IAF at a strategic disadvantage given the absolute lack of experience with this platform as opposed to the decades the PAF has (with varying F-16 models of course). The only saving grace for the F-16 is it's comparatively lower per-unit cost, access to training under the Israelis along with their aftermarket support services and most of all the high level of tech transfer LM is willing to make.

I think on account of the recent dealings with the Russians along with the Algerian rejection of the Mig29s and the problems with IAF's own inventory of Mig29s puts the Mig35 at a huge disadvantage. Also, the Mig 35 has as yet to go into production. If there is one thing that has been brought to light with the Gorshkov deal is that the Russian industrial capabilities are no longer as solid as they used to be, nor is it wise to bank on their ability to push a pre-production model into full production under contract. It would be much easier to stick with them for a mature platform like the Su30 or to co-develop the PAK-FA from scratch splitting the IPRs and subsequent production duties down the line. However the Mig35 deal seems way too dicey.

I think the Rafale on the other hand has a very good chance. In fact, it is probably the better choice when put up against the F-18 (politics not withstanding). There is already a decent set up for the Mirage2000, and since the 80s, the IAF pilots and HAL crews have become very proficient with this platform which the French claim is the basis for the Rafale. Also, Snecma has offered to help bring the Kaveri to production and then integrate it into the Rafale. The 40 unit initial rapid transfer as recently promised by Sarkozy also extremely enticing. Initially the lack of an AESA radar to go along with this aircraft was a problem. But the recent offer from EADS to co-develop an AESA radar has remedied this situation.

But eventually the Americans have the edge simply on account of other potential trade and defense long term ties. The Indian economy is greatly geared towards reaping benefits from the American economic system and the US has a whole lot more in side deals to offer India than any other nation. The F-18 is a very good platform which is already mature; it isn't in use by any of the closest adversaries, has an EA variant which may come in handy if the Su-37 doesn't work out and Boeing in general has a very good lobbying capacity within India.

It will be interesting to see how all of this pans out.

 

[su-47]

The MiG-35 has one major problem: its not being inducted into the Russian air force. as such, the russians wont be very keen to develop upgrades for it, and their general enthusiasm for the project will be low, resulting in the same situation like Gorshkov. This is not something India wants.

If the French can guarantee full ToT and prove all the claims they make about the rafale by pitting it against the MKI, then rafale has a good chance to win.

 

[Titanium]

If the French can guarantee full ToT and prove all the claims they make about the rafale by pitting it against the MKI, then rafale has a good chance to win.

Full ToT like Mig-21?, Which fell of like coffins once Soviet ceased!! or all the knowledge material created by Dassualt investing some $20Billion.


Also Rafale has to prove to MKI, by beating **** out of it like Eurofighter did???

 

[KENT]

The MiG-35 has one major problem: its not being inducted into the Russian air force. as such, the russians wont be very keen to develop upgrades for it, and their general enthusiasm for the project will be low, resulting in the same situation like Gorshkov. This is not something India wants.

In addition to above, IAF need multirole fighter plane and in this arena air to ground capability of MIG-35 sucks which is quite reflective from the fact that IAF present fleet of Mig-29 are dedicated only for point defence fighter.

If the French can guarantee full ToT and prove all the claims they make about the rafale by pitting it against the MKI, then rafale has a good chance to win.

No way, selection of a particuler aircraft is not being on the basis of which aircraft of MRCA would win against MKI. This MRCA's have to prove their worth especially on the basis of lower operational cost, higher life cycle cost, AESA configured etc which is certainly MKI is lacking.

 

[su-47]

Full ToT like Mig-21?, Which fell of like coffins once Soviet ceased!! or all the knowledge material created by Dassualt investing some $20Billion.


Also Rafale has to prove to MKI, by beating **** out of it like Eurofighter did???

in a word yes. why would we want a fighter that is more expensive than MKI if it cant beat the MKI?

and pls back up your claim about Eurofighter beating the **** out of MKI