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France angry with Poland after it scraps Airbus deal

It's been a long time since the russians are equipping their tanks (T72M3,T90 and now Armata) with Thales sights.
If I am not wrong,they produce it under license.
I didn't hear Poland complaining about it. It's not the kind of strategical equipments or things endengering Poland's existance or their sovereignty. While the Mistrals,probably yes. They were the one leading the "anti mistral fanclub" to make us suspend the delivery of these ships.



No offence to our eastern euro friends,but with 34.000 soldiers mobilized for operations at home and abroad,or those stationed abroad and those maintaining our sovereignty over our overseas territories,we are busy with other things,not really having the time to play in eastern Europe and to wait for an hypothetical russian invasion.
Do you think the russians are scared or impressed by 1 brigade ? Maybe by 4 divisions,but not 1 brigade.

It doesn't mean we don't fill our commitments toward our 'allies' if when it's our turn.

Mirage2000s deployed alongside polish Mig29 as part of NATO air policing mission in Malbork.

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France is actually policing baltic state's airspace til 2017. 4 Mirage 2000F have been deployed from the airbase of Luxeuil-Saint Sauveur to Lithuania.

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Even if countries like Poland or baltic states are nowhere to be seen when France asked for EU countries help...


It's not about the size of troops commited in this region.Even if 100 French soldiers are deployed,it sends a message.0 soldiers deployed sends another,wrong message.

Now,I was talking with some Poles,what they did was wrong,it sets them back as they have a depleted,old helicopter force,another tender will take time.If they wanted US gear they should have said so in the first place and save everybody a lot of time and money.That being said,throwing temper tantrums like cancelling official state visit is completely juvenile from Hollande.

And,if we're at this subject,After Airbus opened a plant in here,I'm completely of the opinion (and by the looks of it our politicians also) that the next helicopter aquisition should come from there and it would be completely out of line for this not to happen given French investment in the new plant.Just,that in Poland they're allready manufacturing Blackhawks.
 
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from challenges.fr "Pourquoi le contrat caracal vire au pugilat franco-polonais"

Why Caracal contract turns Franco-Polish boxing

Cancellation by Poland's tender for 50 military helicopters won by Airbus Helicopters causing a major diplomatic crisis between Paris and Warsaw. After the cancellation of the visit of François Hollande in Poland, scheduled for 13 October, France is considering retaliation.

Thirteen years after the trauma of the choice of American F-16 by Poland at the expense of the Mirage 2000-5, Warsaw just cause a major new diplomatic crisis with France by canceling the tender for 50 military helicopters gained April 2015 by Airbus Helicopters. The Elysee said on Friday October the cancellation of the visit of François Hollande in Poland scheduled for 13 October. The Minister of Defense Jean-Yves Le Drian canceled in the wake of his visit to Warsaw, scheduled for Monday, October 10. "The Franco-Polish relationship will be severely affected, asserts a French diplomatic source. This is not the questioning of a service rendered to France, but to the cancellation of a tender largely won by Airbus. "

The same source is even rebels against the positioning of "stowaway" Poland, first beneficiary of EU structural funds (over 85 billion euros over the 2014-2020 period), but that maintains a purchasing policy mainly American military equipment. An unpublished diplomatic fight for control of 48 F-16 fighters to Poland in 2003, just days after the announcement of the country's entry in the European Union.

How did it happen? The competition for 50 helicopters had been won by Airbus Helicopters Caracal in April 2015, which was grilled and politeness in the American Sikorsky Black Hawk and the AW-149 Italian AgustaWestland (since renamed Leonardo). After the unit's test by Polish forces in May 2015, which gave satisfaction, the final stage of the discussions was negotiating "offsets", these compensatory investments (often technology transfer and industrial load), become the prerequisite of arms contracts. It is on this specific topic that the negotiations broke down, ensures Warsaw, who says he has not been convinced by the Airbus offer.

Enough to strangle the French camp. "Offsets offered by Airbus reached levels not seen in the industry levels of around 100% of the contract amount, or 2.4 billion, provides close to the negotiations. And even 124% since Airbus the proposal reflected in the calculation of VAT, which the manufacturer would never have seen the color. " The European group was particularly committed to creating 3,250 jobs locally, 1,250 are direct, with the establishment of an assembly plant in Caracal. The engine manufacturer Safran Helicopter Engines, former Turbomeca, also promised an assembly plant in Poland to manufacture the turbines of 50 helicopters of the contract. Warsaw had even obtained the "offsets" are calculated on the 70 aircraft originally envisaged by the contract, and not the 50 permanently written down recorded.

Retaliation coming

In Paris, the real reason the Polish choice is politics. The ruling party, the conservative PiS in power in areas that host factories competing Airbus, Sikorsky and Leonardo. Conversely, Airbus selected sites to install its plants are in areas held by the opposition, we are assured in the French camp. "The Poles have therefore wanted to push Airbus to blame, demanding unacceptable counterparties ensures a diplomatic source Negotiations were grotesque. They returned one day to the negotiating table by claiming that all offsets traded on the Caracal was valued at zero, and making a new list of 50 projects for funding, unrelated to the helicopter and defense ... "a familiar negotiations considers that the case is likely to end with a control Black Hawk US, without any industrial counterpart for Poland.

The breach in the contract may leave traces in Franco-Polish relations. The government wants to weigh particularly from Airbus, which wanted to make the Poland the "fifth pillar" (with France, Germany, Spain and the UK), for the industrial return on its investments planned Poland. A state source also raises the possibility that Airbus request financial penalties in Warsaw. Indeed, industrial production had already launched the first Caracal in Marignane to keep the date of first deliveries scheduled in 2017.
 
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It's not about the size of troops commited in this region.Even if 100 French soldiers are deployed,it sends a message.0 soldiers deployed sends another,wrong message.

We are committing a company to the Baltic states,and personally don't know why we should,as none of these countries + Poland,Romania and others did anything for us.


Now,I was talking with some Poles,what they did was wrong,it sets them back as they have a depleted,old helicopter force,another tender will take time.If they wanted US gear they should have said so in the first place and save everybody a lot of time and money.That being said,throwing temper tantrums like cancelling official state visit is completely juvenile from Hollande.

Delayed...... and asked the ministry of foreign affairs to get quickly to Poland.
 
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We are committing a company to the Baltic states,and personally don't know why we should,as none of these countries + Poland,Romania and others did anything for us.

Well,there you have it.....this is how this spins around.

Indeed, industrial production had already launched the first Caracal in Marignane to keep the date of first deliveries scheduled in 2017.

They allready scheduled their production lines in France for Polish deliveries ? Weren't the helicopters supposed to be manufactured in Poland ?
 
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LMAO,what a bunch of backstabbers.
We always knew they wanted the american one because of political reasons.
The Caracal was chosen as it was the helicopter that met most of the criterias imposed by the poles.
Airbus with ToT,was ready to open a local plant to produce the helicopters for the polish army's needs and international needs. Airbus opened in Lodz a research center. Their reasons are just B.S.
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The poles were among the one pressuring us not to deliver the Mistral ships to Russia and that our chances to win this tender were lower. And we are asked to deploy aircrafts,troops to Poland and to "die for Dantzig" in case the russians attack.
European defense,cooperation,my @ss. @Taygibay @Louiq XIV
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France reacted angrily on Friday after Poland scrapped a multi-billion-dollar helicopter deal with Airbus, warning it would review defense cooperation with its NATO ally and cancelling a presidential visit to Warsaw.

Poland had agreed to buy 50 Airbus utility helicopters in April 2015 for 13.5 billion zlotys ($3.5 billion) as part of efforts to modernize its military at a time of tensions with Russia.

Its previous centrist government, beaten by the Law and Justice (PiS) party in elections last October, had agreed the provisional deal, but on Oct. 4 the new authorities said they were scrapping the contract altogether.

Members of the new euroskeptic government have said they would rather see the deal awarded to a company that could build the helicopters locally.

"The Franco-Polish bilateral relationship will undeniably be extremely affected by this decision," a French source close to the matter said.

"The contract's cancellation will force us to review all the defense cooperation that we have with Poland and see what can be maintained and sadly what can't in the current context."

Without indicating which investments, the source added that the French government, which holds roughly 11 percent in Airbus, would advise the firm to review its strategy in the country, including investments that had already been made.

A source in the French presidency had earlier said President Francois Hollande had decided to cancel a visit to Warsaw next week for intergovernmental consultations, in protest.

In a speech on Friday, Prime Minister Manuel Valls took a swipe at Poland at a time when the European Union is trying to reinforce its common defense policy in the face of growing concerns over Russian foreign policy, Islamic militancy and the refugee crisis.

"Poland is a big country, but questions need to be asked of Poland, notably its defense industry, after the choices that have just been made," Valls said.

"As far as France is concerned, we're worried because negotiations had started, but also for the very concept of European defense."

Polish media has reported that Warsaw has already begun negotiations with U.S. firm Lockheed Martin's Sikorsky, manufacturer of locally-produced Black Hawk helicopters that could be purchased by the Polish army as soon as this year.


As well as boosting Poland's defense industry, buying Sikorsky helicopters could further strengthen Warsaw's ties with Washington, already its closest ally.

"Before we had a center-right platform that understood it was in Poland's interest to go beyond the U.S. axis and have a bilateral relationship with France and Germany," a French diplomatic source said.

"But clearly the PiS doesn't understand the benefits for Poland, which are frankly huge in its European arena."

Poland’s government spokesman and the defense and economy ministries were not immediately available for comment.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-airbus-france-idUSKCN1271ZB

Looks like only a few countries value "merit" these days:(
 
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Well,there you have it.....this is how this spins around.

Except that this does not spin around. Starting with Romania but same is true with Poland, have you any idea how many times we helped you across history ?
 
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Well,there you have it.....this is how this spins around.

Don't you agree that help should be two sided ? Mutual ?

They allready scheduled their production lines in France for Polish deliveries ? Weren't the helicopters supposed to be manufactured in Poland ?

The first in France,the rest in Poland for their needs + 20 others for export.
They were promised ToT,local maintenance and even Safran said it would open an assembly line in Poland for these helicopters' engines. What did they expect more ? To get paid to buy them ?
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Our MoD said that "It is difficult to accept that a tender that was won is cancelled for political reasons. This means we have political problems with the buyer".
 
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Except that this does not spin around. Starting with Romania but same is true with Poland, have you any idea how many times we helped you across history ?


Yes,I have.What do you expect from us and it wasn't done ? As far as I'm aware of,our Intelligence aparatus has served you more than well in the fight against terrorism,especially our connections through the Arab world and the thousands of Arab students educated in here,we've been supportive of your policies in the EU,your corporations gained a lot in the last years,making a lot of capital,which ,btw,mostly leaves this country,we were faithfull allies in WW1,even WW2 untill your nefarious colapse.

What exactly are you complaining about ?

Don't you agree that help should be two sided ? Mutual ?

I do.That doesn't mean we should be obedient markets for Fra/Ger .We get it,you run the EU,but a little consideration for us should exist.
 
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Yes,I have.What do you expect from us and it wasn't done ?
What do we expect ?

untill your nefarious colapse.
You mean apart from avoiding this kind of nefarious insults ?

Well ... only one thing in fact.

We will survive the way the Polish government has handled this story but we would be very pleased if east European countries and baltic states stop their hysteric anti-russian sentiment. That's really the only thing that matters. If we succeed to establish good relations with Germany and England then you can do it as well.



 
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We will survive the way the Polish government has handled this story but we would be very pleased if east European countries and baltic states stop their hysteric anti-russian sentiment. That's really the only thing that matters. If we succeed to establish good relations with Germany and England then you can do it as well.

Well,there it is now,this is what it's all about,i kind knew it.Ok,can't speak about Poland,the Baltics but I'm pretty sure Romania will drop the rhetoric once you guys get the Russians out of Moldova (historical Romanian territory),get them to give back the illegal seized Romanian tesaurus from WW1 (when they were our,and yours,allies) and vacate Eastern Ukraine and Crimeea.

Yes,France and Germany are a model of former rivals becoming partners but then again,there are no German occupation troops in Alsace,Lorraine today *like Russians in Moldova),there are no French goods robbed by Nazis in Berlin today and Germany didn't recently invade Belgium ,a French neighbour like Russians in Ukr ( a Polish and Romanian neighbour).

Once all of the above is sorted out ,I think everything will be allright.

You mean apart from avoiding this kind of nefarious insults ?

What insult ? It was a total colapse,a colapse that,btw,shocked us and put Romanians in mourning for France.Also for your knowledge when you lost your first war with Germany in the 19th century,Romanians took to the streets and assaulted the palace where our newly appointed Prussian prince was residing ,just to "throw out the evil German".We are a filo French nation but it doesn't mean we should be taken for a ride.
 
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You gotta understand Polish interests, in a possible Russian agression the biggest part of defence would be done by NATO which again means US.

I dont even know what kind of measures EU has decided on a military conflict with a 3rd state, is there even a defence pact? Economic sanctions alone were in most cases not enough for a short terms solution.
 
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Well,there it is now,this is what it's all about,i kind knew it.Ok,can't speak about Poland,the Baltics but I'm pretty sure Romania will drop the rhetoric once you guys get the Russians out of Moldova (historical Romanian territory),get them to give back the illegal seized Romanian tesaurus from WW1 (when they were our,and yours,allies) and vacate Eastern Ukraine and Crimeea.

Yes,France and Germany are a model of former rivals becoming partners but then again,there are no German occupation troops in Alsace,Lorraine today *like Russians in Moldova),there are no French goods robbed by Nazis in Berlin today and Germany didn't recently invade Belgium ,a French neighbour like Russians in Ukr ( a Polish and Romanian neighbour).

Once all of the above is sorted out ,I think everything will be allright.



What insult ? It was a total colapse,a colapse that,btw,shocked us and put Romanians in mourning for France.Also for your knowledge when you lost your first war with Germany in the 19th century,Romanians took to the streets and assaulted the palace where our newly appointed Prussian prince was residing ,just to "throw out the evil German".We are a filo French nation but it doesn't mean we should be taken for a ride.
Are romani Gypsies even Europe? Thought they were from India. i could be wrong though
 
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