Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[DJ_Viper]

1. I totally agree with you. Logic is supposed to be confusing to serve a biased opinion (yours).

Hurts, doesn't it, when you have to admit that you lost an aircraft , that too the top of the line in your inventory at the time, in first few hours of a war which you later claimed never saw the opponent's airforce take to air? Anything to toe the official line, eh?

2.Says a guy who has not got his facts in line.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/document_conversions/89801/DOC_0000588922.pdf


Now you can tell that the post war intelligence analysis of the intelligence services of the shoot-down is also incorrect and biased!!! And that you have the sole repertoire of all the facts and intelligence in this world and everyone else is a fool.

3. Maybe you should follow the statement in your above statement I took the time to bullet as point 3.

Maybe the pilot flying with him did not have the insight that you sitting on a keyboard have ....

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/15/opinion/death-of-a-fighter-pilot.html


Now let me debunk the extract of report you posted.

https://fightersweep.com/3709/remembering-captain-michael-spike-speicher/

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=2oa-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA271&lpg=PA271&dq=scott+speicher+shot+down+by+mig-25&source=bl&ots=ISm18pVHzz&sig=-vH7Uqx3l6BLqWKfz2teoFWdcI8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicjMKWx5fOAhXMuY8KHWwVDmg4ChDoAQhPMAk#v=onepage&q=scott speicher shot down by mig-25&f=false

His body was recovered in 2009.

So did he bale out before the aircraft exploded? I am yet to ascertain how did he bale out before missile strike and his aircraft 'exploding into bits'?





You have been tried and found wanting.

A mere lazy wannabe know-it-all who has no idea of what he is talking. Just google and you will get facts in 5 seconds.

But you decided to brazen it out ... and were caught wanting!!!

Stop making your own assessment and history.

we were conducting regular sorties over Tibet and Pakistan .. with impunity merely because the Mig-25 could achieve an altitude above 60+ feet AGL in India itself and then simply power up and enter and be back before the interceptors could be in a position to actually do something about it ... a quick ingress and egress ... and in Pakistan that means a total time of 4-8 minutes tops for Islamabad et al

I enjoy the ignorance ..

Hey there speedy, man, did I pi*s you off? It seems like I really did. You wrote a book to my post. I was quoting what the Pentagon had initially said. And like one of your articles point out, they reported inaccurately as it wasn't a SAM. So what's the big deal? You should be a man and be able to handle things manly, like I am. Thank you for posting more sources to correct me. Unlike our Indian and Pakistani friends, I don't have ego to think that I know it all. I can make a mistake too and clearly I did!!

Now back to the topic, my posts above, outside of this ONE kill, aren't wrong about the Foxbat, -16, -15 or the -18's abilities and capabilities. Nor are the numbers wrong of Migs downed by the platforms I listed. Nor is my explanation based on pure Physics and common science in terms of scaring off the Mig-25. I missed a piece of news. Doesn't mean that everything else I wrote was also wrong. You should have some common sense to debate like a normal person. But thank you for fixing my news source. I was clearly looking at the wrong news on that ONE pilot shot by an Iraqi Mig-25

Do try to respond to the remainder of my posts, based on science, flight experience and capability of the platform. If you don't have those, ask an IAF or PAF pilot to join the discussion who've dealt or flown the Mig-25. They won't say anything different than what I've already told you.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I would minus the bold line from your post. The rest is fine. Yes, the Swedes did request and the US agreed as the Swedes are our allies.........shooting down a US jet means war with the most powerful fighting machine in the world and no one wants that. Just stating facts, nothing more. Thanks

Just because the Swedish Air Force got radar lock, does not mean that a missile is fired.
Standard procedure when US, Russian or whatever country is violating the borders is to escort
the violator out of Swedish Air Space.
Achieving Radar Lock is just sending a diplomatic message.
The target knows a radar lock has been obtained,
so all negotiations are done in the backlight of both sides knowing that.

If the US would continue to violate, then next step is still not to shoot it down,
but to bring it to the world stage through the UN.
Obviously there won't be a resolution in the UNSC, but it would prepare the ground,
for the next action.
If the US would ignore our borders we would have to shoot it down...
It is a matter of principle.

Do You think any NATO country would support a war on Sweden, when the US will be so clearly to blame.
Would the US Congress go to war, or would they decide to fire the guy responsible for the SR-71 flights?

The US decided that it is in its long term interest to uphold International Law, snd became more careful.
It is still the country which does the most violations (but minor), but when this is pointed out
the necessary diplomatic sing and dance show is performed to satisfaction.

 

[DJ_Viper]

Just because the Swedish Air Force got radar lock, does not mean that a missile is fired.
Standard procedure when US, Russian or whatever country is violating the borders is to escort
the violator out of Swedish Air Space.
Achieving Radar Lock is just sending a diplomatic message.
It can be detected and the target knows a radar lock has been obtained,
so all negotiations are done in the backlight of both sides knowing that.

If the US would continue to violate, then next step is still not to shoot it down,
but to bring it to the world stage through the UN.
Obviously there won't be a resolution in the UNSC, but it would prepare the ground,
for the next action.
If the US would ignore our borders we would have to shoot it down...
It is a matter of principle.

Do You think any NATO country would support a war on Sweden, when the US will be so clearly to blame.
Would the US Congress go to war, or would they decide to fire the guy responsible for the SR-71 flights?

The US decided that it is in its long term interest to uphold International Law, snd became more careful.
It is still the country which does the most violations (but minor), but when this is pointed out
the necessary diplomatic sing and dance show is performed to satisfaction.

Thanks for writing a book. Bottom line, if you listen to Mr. Trump, he wants the NATO to "pay up" for the security umbrella. In other words, if the Swedes fires a missile at a US jet (not seeing this happen, but just a scenario, very unlikely), then the US won't care about the NATO. First there would be some diplomatic talks, worst case, you might lose the base where the jet flew from. The standard operating procedure.

 

[Windjammer]

You should have titled this post, "Heart's Desires that never became reality".

I think bursting the Bharti bubble is much more appropriate title.

Yeah, we all know that capabilities of mighty PAF.
but for some reason PAF failed to turn the tide in your wars against india .

your esteemed knowledge is apparent from your comment below.....but since it seems you have just come out of a coma, suffice to remind you that we are not exactly discussing any wars here but none the less as far as PAF is concerned it's the reason why you people have to cook up stories about IAF to look good.

Fighter Jets have drivers, I thought pilots fly the plane.

Here learn to walk before even aiming to run.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Thanks for writing a book. Bottom line, if you listen to Mr. Trump, he wants the NATO to "pay up" for the security umbrella. In other words, if the Swedes fires a missile at a US jet (not seeing this happen, but just a scenario, very unlikely), then the US won't care about the NATO. First there would be some diplomatic talks, worst case, you might lose the base where the jet flew from. The standard operating procedure.

Sweden is not a member of NATO, which You seems to believe.
I am sure mr Trump is sharing that lack of knowledge.
I think however that he will order a strike on Switzerland, since he probably do not know the difference.

 

[Hellfire]

Hey there speedy, man, did I pi*s you off? It seems like I really did. You wrote a book to my post. I was quoting what the Pentagon had initially said. And like one of your articles point out, they reported inaccurately as it wasn't a SAM. So what's the big deal? You should be a man and be able to handle things manly, like I am. Thank you for posting more sources to correct me. Unlike our Indian and Pakistani friends, I don't have ego to think that I know it all. I can make a mistake too and clearly I did!!

Refer your first post as quoted by me in #207 wherein you have said, I quote:

You should talk to the fine USAF pilots who took out a few Foxbats in Iraq and other places.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-14#ixzz4Fm5btneZ

And

At 65+ feet, maneuvering gets very difficult due to the gravity and air-density, etc.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-14#ixzz4Fm5iKkM5

And

At the height of 70k or more, you can't do "maneuvers" and still maintain a 2.5 mach speed. You make one turn and you bleed so much energy that it takes you a couple of minutes to recoup and due to gravity and drag, you become a sitting duck.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-14#ixzz4Fm5plO93

To which my reply,

The first F-18 downed on the first day was by a Mig-25. Specifically January 17 1991, Lt Commander Michael Scott Speicher Bureau No 163484.

Your logic is confusing for me.


Source: https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-14#ixzz4Fm78X1rD


To which the ill-informed and arrogant reply intended to actually try and show "delusive superiority while stating useless non-sense long debunked as facts"

Since you are a relatively new guy here, I suggest you look at a members stats and date of joining before speeding off posting non-sense and trying to justify the same. You could have responded with a clarification for my confusion, I made an attempt for you to justify your whole post in order to get to understand your perspective, which you didnt attempt. Instead, I got an arrogant reply bereft of facts.

You somehow remind me of your own country professional, a certain S-2 back in 2009-10, a US Army Artillery Veteran who used to post similar non-sense about the superiority of M1 Abrams in everything from armour, to firepower, to what not, without ever delving on the facts of upgradation of M1As just prior to offensive operations with DU keeping in mind the susceptibility of the armour to Soviet FSAPDS which were available for use with Iraqi Republican Guards T-72s Babylon.

When you post biased posts yourself and accuse the other of being biased, it is termed hypocrisy.

Your language demonstrated your arrogance which is continued with your opening line in the above posted quoted statement of yours - your impertinence requires being dealt with in the manner as has been dealt with. There is civility and there is arrogance. You, sir, displayed the latter.

The article I have quoted wherein the officer concerned in the raid along with the said Lt Cdr, is dated 1992. There holds the value of your statement of the bias to suit the narrative.

The 'book' I posted, if you take as an indicator, will give you enough idea about the person you are dealing with, unlike, admittedly few keyboard warriors like yourself around.

Just my opinion.

Now back to the topic, my posts above, outside of this ONE kill, aren't wrong about the Foxbat, -16, -15 or the -18's abilities and capabilities. Nor are the numbers wrong of Migs downed by the platforms I listed. Nor is my explanation based on pure Physics and common science in terms of scaring off the Mig-25. I missed a piece of news. Doesn't mean that everything else I wrote was also wrong. You should have some common sense to debate like a normal person. But thank you for fixing my news source. I was clearly looking at the wrong news on that ONE pilot shot by an Iraqi Mig-25

You are tiresome ... still at it. I don't need to 'debate' with you. I need you to post facts and wipe that arrogance off your posts, which is still exhibited by you.

Now let me answer to this post.

Your aircrafts engaged an air force depleted of trained pilots (trained at French Training Institutes by the French et al ), due to a purge of the best the Iraqi Air Force had by Saddam.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afri/aspj/airchronicles/apj/apj92/win92/hurley.htm

Then you are factually wrong when you quote the Iraqi acts of using an aircraft clearly designed as a reconnaissance aircraft/stand off interceptor in a dog fight and extrapolate it to the Indian usage of the same and then pontify and give me your physics as a justification to continue defending a useless tirade by you so far.


http://www.456fis.org/MIG-25_WORLDS FASTEST_PRODUCTION_AIRCRAFT.htm

Do try to respond to the remainder of my posts, based on science, flight experience and capability of the platform. If you don't have those, ask an IAF or PAF pilot to join the discussion who've dealt or flown the Mig-25. They won't say anything different than what I've already told you.

I dont need to ask any pilot to join in. Your foundation of discussing Indian Usage of Mig-25RBs is fundamentally flawed.

You talk of high G turns required whereas Indian missions involved a quick ingress and egress, where in Indians were flying at altitudes greater than 60000 ft AGL when they would cross the IB and at considerable speed and needed only approx 8 minutes to ingress and egress with a circuitous route. The pictures of Peshawar were also taken by this aircraft.

Example:

Over Lhasa, Indian Mig-25 would take off from Bagdogra AFB, ingress over Sikkim and loop back to Bareilly. A circuit being made.

Giving you an example.

And for your information, I was enjoying the exploits of Mig-25 at the final decommissioning ceremony in Izzatnagar AFB Bareilly ....

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/aircraft/past/963-mig25.html

Read it, its less hyperbole than what was achieved as most missions are still classified.

@A.P. Richelieu His posts are 'thanks for writing a book'. I wrote him a manuscript now ..

@Joe Shearer we have a new expert online

 

[Windjammer]

Back to topic.
The Prey and the Predators. Some 40 years later, history almost repeated it'self.

 

[Raider 21]

You should have titled this post, "Heart's Desires that never became reality".

Yeah, we all know that capabilities of mighty PAF.
but for some reason PAF failed to turn the tide in your wars against india .


Fighter Jets have drivers, I thought pilots fly the plane.

I have worked in 2 Viper squadrons....drivers is a regular term used for pilots. Hope this clears the confusion.

 

[Aero]

I have worked in 2 Viper squadrons....drivers is a regular term used for pilots. Hope this clears the confusion.

Well, I never said they can't use the term,even drive and pilot are synonyms, but pilots seems more in line that's why I pointed out.
Also,Thanks for positive response & not overreacting as Windjammer is burning above.

I think bursting the Bharti bubble is much more appropriate title.

Well if it pleases you then do it but everyone knows (whether they admit it or not that's another story) that your mighty PAF (whose F 16s can even destroy F 22s if need be ) can't win against IAF.

I
but none the less as far as PAF is concerned it's the reason why you people have to cook up stories about IAF to look good.
I pointed to title because that is what most of members here wish despite the opposite realities.

Your PAF doesn't give us any chance by losing fine at its own.

Here learn to walk before even aiming to run.

Was not directed at you.

 

[Hellfire]

@Windjammer Post #248

How did history almost repeat itself? Did some retired Mig-25 suddenly fly over to your side? I am confused as to your post, Please clarify.

@Aero The use of drivers and pilots is interchangeable in India too (recall pilot written on all Buses?). Now why would you be needling them unnecessarily?

 

[Windjammer]

@Windjammer Post #248

How did history almost repeat itself? Did some retired Mig-25 suddenly fly over to your side? I am confused as to your post, Please clarify

@hellfire , Sir, the said is mentioned in the OP, the incident of an IAF Canberra flying over Pakistan on a reconnaissance mission back in 1959.

https://defence.pk/threads/pafs-no-15-squadron-cobras-draw-first-blood.102824/

 

[Hellfire]

@Windjammer Then why would you confuse people like me by posting a Mig-25 and pair of F-16s? You want to show that in 1959 a canberra and in 1980s-90s a Foxbat? Something like that?

Fair enough ...

Thanks

 

[Basel]

don't fool yourself sir HQ-16 is base defense system with a range of 30 km or 19 miles and intercepting altitude is mere 40,000+ ft, SPADA- 2000 is not a medium range system, it is short range system just like HQ-16 take a look "The Aspide 2000 missile can intercept enemy missiles and aircraft at a range of over 20 km" and intercepting altitude is mere 45000+ ft and as for HQ-9 this is just a rumors nothing else, if we have it give me a solid prove, they are all short ranged SAMS. actually HQ-2 is basically a Soviet "SA-2 GUIDELINE" which was the 1950-60 technology with upgraded radar nothing else

Have you worked and sen things first hand? Specially in hostile situation? If not then cut the crap.

 

[SQ8]

They were Flying 10 MILES inside your territory

The idea of Radar lock was to let them KNOW that MIG 29s were flying in the Same
area where the Bombers were bombing Pakistani positions

That is the whole idea of CAP

Stephen are you parroting the same line again and again.

Some basic maths for you.

The Mig-29 normally does its CAP cruises at 500 to 550 knots which is around 10 miles a minute!. That means if it was ten miles into Pakistani airspace- it was there for a minute and then turned back. That is not a Escort but rather an attempt to ward off interception. Being ten miles in means it came in for a minute and immediately turned back. The IAF arent chest thumping fanboys and were also quite worried about being engaged and shot down over our territory.

You have had a hard row to hoe. Looks like fanboys of all nations are averse to checking data.

Data? I pray what might that be sir?
There are only facts that we know!.. FACTS.. like December is COLD ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Please know FACTS!

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Stephen are you parroting the same line again and again.

Some basic maths for you.

The Mig-29 normally does its CAP cruises at 500 to 550 knots which is around 10 miles a minute!. That means if it was ten miles into Pakistani airspace- it was there for a minute and then turned back. That is not a Escort but rather an attempt to ward off interception. Being ten miles in means it came in for a minute and immediately turned back. The IAF arent chest thumping fanboys and were also quite worried about being engaged and shot down over our territory.

Oh my GOD

I was replying to a question that

Why did not an Indian Mig 29 engage a PAF F 16

The answer is WHY would it do so if PAF F 16 was well within Pakistani territory

Secondly IAF Mig 29s were only escorting the Bombers who THEMSELVES were within
Indian Territory

So what is the problem if MIG 29 locks on an F 16 ; just in case the F 16 attacks the Mirage 2000

Indian planes were flying parallel to the LOC

Neither the Mig 29s nor the Mirage 2000s intruded inside Pakistani terrotory