Foxbat over Pakistan the facts & fiction

[Allen Iverson]

My boy, Windy is saying the Foxbat returned after a head on engagement radar lock. This has happened at least 6 times that i personally know of. Do you think the real operational details come out in the media?

I'm not saying the Radar couldn't lock on.. The Foxbat returned back after violating a considerable airspace. I'm saying that there were nothing to shoot at such distances as PAF didn't possess BVR capabilities and we knew this very well.. Where as Foxbot had R27/77 which is BVRAAM..

There has been more than one instance where we had the Mig-25s on track and with DLZs satisfied for the kill. Unlike the Undies, we don't have anything to prove in the air. The Foxbat missions were mostly for morale building of the IAF. We don't have things lying outside to be pictured. The F16 is more than capable to interdict the Foxbat. However, if you want to stick with google has to say, then believe what you like.

Dude in such case, we had numerous instances where we got a radar Lock on your F16s flying well within the pak boundary and as you know if you are veteran, every time an f16 scrambles a Mig29 also scrambles form either Halwara or from Adhampur to make sure certain things.. I can only laugh at your remarks.. I do agree that Mig25 incident was moral boosting, but the purpose of that sortie was different and it accomplished what it went for.. The whole crew of Mig 29s at adhampur were on red alert when we expected that atleast two of your teen birds to chase our foxbat, but you guys realised your limitations and didn't take the chance.. We were a bit disappointed I should say on that and the Late night party at our mess was not quite that jubiliant.. good for you though..

How many hour flying experience you have in a fighter jet?
I am no pilot, but seriously your point is

Why? What is wrong with my point?? Are you going to get me a job in an Airliner..?
If you can't understand, then don't try to act smart.. If My service ceiling is 70000 Ft and my aggressor has a limitation of it i'll try to exploit every bit of that, as the first rule of engagement is to break off by pulling up not down.. By the way why am I telling this to you, at the end you''l somehow say some nonsense only..

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

I'm not saying the Radar couldn't lock on.. The Foxbat returned back after violating a considerable airspace. I'm saying that there were nothing to shoot at such distances as PAF didn't possess BVR capabilities and we knew this very well.. Where as Foxbot had R27/77 which is BVRAAM..

Dude in such case, we had numerous instances where we got a radar Lock on your F16s flying well within the pak boundary and as you know if you are veteran, every time an f16 scrambles a Mig29 also scrambles form either Halwara or from Adhampur to make sure certain things.. I can only laugh at your remarks.. I do agree that Mig25 incident was moral boosting, but the purpose of that sortie was different and it accomplished what it went for.. The whole crew of Mig 29s at adhampur were on red alert when we expected that atleast two of your teen birds to chase our foxbat, but you guys realised your limitations and didn't take the chance.. We were a bit disappointed I should say on that and the Late night party at our mess was not quite that jubiliant.. good for you though..


Why? What is wrong with my point?? Are you going to get me a job in an Airliner..?
If you can't understand, then don't try to act smart.. If My service ceiling is 70000 Ft and my aggressor has a limitation of it i'll try to exploit every bit of that, as the first rule of engagement is to break off by pulling up not down.. By the way why am I telling this to you, at the end you''l somehow say some nonsense only..

Moral boosting is hardly a mission PAF follows. We have real missions with real targets, not taking pictures of Faisal Mosque for the Officers Mess in Adampur (we have a copy btw).

All you third parties can laugh but war is serious business, and none of us take this as a laughing matter.

The CAPs on the other side of the border are not secret. However, the times where your MIG 29s have buggered out are also evident and you should check in your Officers Mess how many flight overalls were found to be wet.

Well I know that the foxbat was unchallenged in a you its sorties. The F16 they vectored where just too slow and low to do anything. Moreover they did not care anything to increase the chances of intercept but by the time they reached there position, Foxbat had done what it came for.

I have no fucking source to prove my statement. Will you take it on face value? If no then why should we take Windy too? Conspiracy theory is good pass time on his side of the border.

Language please? The Falcon's are neither slow nor the height difference is enough for a shot. Rest, the Mig 25 are history and this is a stupid discussion to discuss a topic which has no meaning in air combat.

 

[Allen Iverson]

The CAPs on the other side of the border are not secret. However, the times where your MIG 29s have buggered out are also evident and you should check in your Officers Mess how many flight overalls were found to be wet.

Buggered out?? You mean scoot..? Tall claims mate but the reality is totally upside down.. It is Vice versa.. But if we break out our course just to avoid any unnecessary provocation, than there is no need to wet our cockpit.. Most of the times, we get mad at our Fighter controller, for Barking out instructions on no provocations Blah Blah, where we actually are waiting eagerly to see some Teen shit, while running back from a lock on.. Heck even our Boys in our Bisons are itching to have some on your teens.. We respect the men in uniforms, even if they are our enemies, but that doesn't mean we are scared.. Hence your remarks are highly laughable sir..

 

[kṣamā]

Language please? The Falcon's are neither slow nor the height difference is enough for a shot. Rest, the Mig 25 are history and this is a stupid discussion to discuss a topic which has no meaning in air combat.

Was proving a basic point. No source for your claim, then it's as good as bedtime story. Nothing more nothing less.
And we hold this true for every OP isn't it? Then why not here.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Buggered out?? You mean scoot..? Tall claims mate but the reality is totally upside down.. It is Vice versa.. But if we break out our course just to avoid any unnecessary provocation, than there is no need to wet our cockpit.. Most of the times, we get mad at our Fighter controller, for Barking out instructions on no provocations Blah Blah, where we actually are waiting eagerly to see some Teen shit, while running back from a lock on.. Heck even our Boys in our Bisons are itching to have some on your teens.. We respect the men in uniforms, even if they are our enemies, but that doesn't mean we are scared.. Hence your remarks are highly laughable sir..

I am glad you get a chuckle. Lets keep it to chuckles only going forward.

Was proving a basic point. No source for your claim, then it's as good as bedtime story. Nothing more nothing less.
And we hold this true for every OP isn't it? Then why not here.

Yes, I am not able to give a source on any opinion comment I give. The ones here can judge themselves if it is a bedtime story or based on the opinion of a ex-serviceman. BR.

 

[Allen Iverson]

I am glad you get a chuckle. Lets keep it to chuckles only going forward.

Aye Aye Sir..

 

[Danish saleem]

F 16 service ceiling was 50000 feet

How could it engage the MIG 25 flying over 70000 feet

And in 1997 you had F 16 A / B with NO BVRAAM
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http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/other-1997mig25-1.html

Recce Incursion

Air Power International

By Peter Steinemann

Last May (1997), an Indian Force (IAF) Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The Foxbat broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier as deliberate: to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the cruising height of the MiG-25 (up to 74,000 feet).

However, from one of PAF's Forward Operating Bases, radar traced the intruder and the F-16As scrambled. Sources in the PAF said that there was no need to intercept a plane flying at the altitude of 65,000 feet as the F-16 can reach an operating ceiling of 55,000 feet.

India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the Capital, Islamabad. Interestingly, the two countries signed a 'Prevention of Air Space Violations' agreement in April 1991, which recognized that PAF and IAF aircraft operate near each other's airspace. The agreement permitted overflights and landings by military aircraft, but certainly not airborne reconnaissance.
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@Windjammer

https://defence.pk/threads/the-story-of-iaf-mig-25-over-islamabad.330422/

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/comme...-aviation-mig-25-foxbat-indian-air-force.html

Brother,
the basic point is your Mig25 was tracked, that's the point.

 

[kṣamā]

Yes, I am not able to give a source on any opinion comment I give. The ones here can judge themselves if it is a bedtime story or based on the opinion of a ex-serviceman

Sir the thing is "Trust me I am____________" quotes do not go well with discussions. Bcoz discussion grow on facts. And such kind of quotes have the tendency to either create facts or change them. Any argument without credible source cannot be accepted in a discussion. Bcoz I can bring in a fact saying "I don't have proof but I am the supreme commander of armed forces and we have just included starship enterprise in our forces! That's where the 29 crew member went." . Now tell me will you trust other posters who say BS or a Supreme Commander?

 

[Moon]

The moment your Radars track an incoming Flying object, they'll issue alert to the Nearest ATC(If the AF Base Radars don't pick it up first).. The moment the Alert is issued, the fighters will be kept on red alert with Pilots ready to scramble, sitting in the cockpit (Assuming all the SOP checks are made before).. From that point it has to taxi out to the runway, and it has to kick in its afterburners and get to an altitude where it can atleast spot the aggressor in its radar.. For all this five minutes is the best of the best time any professional ariforce can achieve..
A foxbat flying at 1 to1.5 Mach (Assuming safe speed on a Recce mission) will enter into the Pakistani border and within five minutes from that moment it will cross Approx 130 Kms (Simple mathematics).. Now, let us say that the Foxbat turns back half way and returns to india, it still have crossed over 75 kms into Pakistani Airspace within 2.5 Minutes.. Now you are free to calculate it on your own..
I agree that f16 can fly near 2 Machs, but that doesn't mean that f16 can outrun a Mig25 on a tail chase.. Do you think so??
Now you may rebut logically..


True, Foxbat can be defeated by other fighters.. But only when it is flying at an altitude which suits the interceptor's altitude, which it wont..


No wrong.. Iranians claimed a hit but the foxbat flew back to its base with some 25 holes in its structure.. It was a hard landing and the Aircraft was later R/O.. You may refer the records of SIPRI and the records by the Americans after 1991US had taken over.. Iran most number of kills attributed to f4s and not f14s.. Check a neutral source.. Not a one sided source..

F-16 doesn't need to chase a MiG-25, it needs to get a lock. Plus the thread is about debuffing the myth that the IAF MiG-25 could not be shot down.
FYI 5 minutes is not the best, it is the border line.
F-16s have been scrambled off in less than half of that. Read about PAFs operations during Afghan war.
The MiG-25 flew over the Islamabad sector which is an estimate of 265 km from the Indian border, and that is if it's a literally a straight line of flight. I-e the shortest distance.
I suggest you do the rest of your maths.

 

[Falcon26]

Wasn't the very first kill by an F-16 of a mig-25?

 

[Tipu7]

Dear people, grow up from age of ''give me source or you are liar''
World is Harsh and do not operate on '' wikipedia, google and media proof''

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

The moment your Radars track an incoming Flying object, they'll issue alert to the Nearest ATC(If the AF Base Radars don't pick it up first).. The moment the Alert is issued, the fighters will be kept on red alert with Pilots ready to scramble, sitting in the cockpit (Assuming all the SOP checks are made before).. From that point it has to taxi out to the runway, and it has to kick in its afterburners and get to an altitude where it can atleast spot the aggressor in its radar.. For all this five minutes is the best of the best time any professional ariforce can achieve..

Swedish Air Force J-35 Draken pilots on high alert had one minute to be airborne after the order to go.
Its official climb rate was 10,500 m per minute.

http://www.aef.se/Flygvapnet/PDF-dokument/FVN_1978_1_Incidentberedskap.pdf

 

[Windjammer]

The OP @Windjammer has neither given not a shred of proof nor linked any citation to the bull crap he has posted at beginning of this thread. He has chosen to conveniently ignore all proofs and counters debunking his theory and resorted to sorry rhetoric instead of validated facts.

Moreover he did not bother to correct himself or had the decency to request for thread deletion when pointed out that an Pakistani EX foreign minister and debunked and refuted whatever half arsed snake oil he was trying to sell on this thread.

I understand the OP belongs to a privileged section of PDF, but I would humbly ask the mods and staff members, @waz, @Oscar @Icarus, if an Indian opened a similar conspiracy theory thread (for example a thread which blames the Ayodha incident in Pakistani mischief makers or some such), would you allow it to run for so long unimpeded without intervention ??

Would the OP have the decency to reply to this https://defence.pk/threads/foxbat-over-pakistan-the-facts-fiction.441349/page-2#post-8509492 ??

You see typing in big fonts and putting fancy colours into your wordings doesn't make your post any more credible and then you characters also have the habit of bringing your table manners to the forum, perhaps to create some sort of impression, to me such posts and members are as credible as an ash tray on a motorcycle. Isn't it ironic that when it suits you people then the words of a Pakistani are the gospel truth else every one in Pakistan is an Ajmal Kasab or a suicide bomber.
Let me ask you what proof have you to claim that the Foxbat flew width and breadth of Pakistan, other than what your frivolous media feeds you, has Indian MOD ever released any imagery to back up it's claims..... the fact is you are just another victim of your own mad dog media. The fact is that your Foxbat never entered except the border areas where each time it was countered head on....and BTW, no leader in the world would openly say we are helpless against our enemy unless off course there was some intention behind such statements, something to the effect of spreading disinformation to keep your enemy guessing.....and it seems India read between the lines and didn't indulge into further misadventure.
BTW, when you are done with your fancy posting, check satellite images of both IAF stations and PAF bases and conclude for yourself as who lays more exposed when they are being photographed. !!!

Hi Windy,

Let them argue---it is one of the technique they use to make you spill out our guts---proof---link---your source---etc etc etc---.

I know what you have written is correct---. You don't need to give any clarifications---.

It is what it is and let them come with with their versions and stories---.

Sir, over a period, i have become well accustomed to these ploys and tactics,
Those who know me and matter know well where I'm coming from, rest are irrelevant.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Sir the thing is "Trust me I am____________" quotes do not go well with discussions. Bcoz discussion grow on facts. And such kind of quotes have the tendency to either create facts or change them. Any argument without credible source cannot be accepted in a discussion. Bcoz I can bring in a fact saying "I don't have proof but I am the supreme commander of armed forces and we have just included starship enterprise in our forces! That's where the 29 crew member went." . Now tell me will you trust other posters who say BS or a Supreme Commander?

Then don't discuss with us, and discuss with fact posters. However, I respect the fact that your post stays decent and objective. Unfortunately, as I have always said, we can only post opinion.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The fact is that your Foxbat never entered except the border areas where each time it was countered head on...

Islamabad is on the border ??