Four MMRCA contenders fail Leh trials

[Peregrine]

Hi,
so any details regarding which four jets have failed the high altitude test, i wont be surprised if f-18 failed it as American technology is not some thing out of this world as it is perceived by some factions.

 

[ptldM3]

The primary aim that u are referring is correct.India wants western planes with superior technology(not wrt to russia but western standards) not only in 4th generation craft but also as a stepping stone for its MCA programme as a counterbalance to its reliance on russia for pak-fa, fgfa programme

"western" or European weapons are incredibly over-rated, their radars are more or less weak sause, now they do make some incredibly good systems; however, people get cought in the"western" mindset. Look at the MKI, its avionics are mostly Russian and Israeli and by Israeli i mean Jammers and targetting pod, so why didn't India choose European systems? Afterall if they're so good they would replace Russian systems with European systems wouldn't they? Of course but they didn't, the same with Mig-21's, they use Israeli avionics, at the end of the day Russian avionics are un-fairly labeled as "inferior" one great example of this was when the "west" got a chance to study the German mig-29's, they always considered the R-77 to be "inferior" but it terned out they were wrong. IMO the Mig-35 would be a great choce, AESA, ols-35, hms, tvc and much more, of couse the Typhoon would also be a great choice minus the price.

 

[manish123]

Well for all gripen fans -Gripen is similar to our tejas, if india buys gripen(not possible in my opinion) we can say goodbye to tejas

 

[Bingo!]

what types!!! any guesses???
my guess its not the F-16IN

PAF F-16's routinely fly / land from Gilget / Skardu air-strips.

Skardu/gilgit are towns with skardu having the popularity of a tourist spot with road connectivity and a beautiful valley.

Gilgit is 8200ft where as Leh is in accessible without any roads(which is impossible) and is more than 11,500ft in height and the climate is always below freezing.

 

[manish123]

"western" or European weapons are incredibly over-rated, their radars are more or less weak sause, now they do make some incredibly good systems; however, people get cought in the"western" mindset. Look at the MKI, its avionics are mostly Russian and Israeli and by Israeli i mean Jammers and targetting pod, so why didn't India choose European systems? Afterall if they're so good they would replace Russian systems with European systems wouldn't they? Of course but they didn't, the same with Mig-21's, they use Israeli avionics, at the end of the day Russian avionics are un-fairly labeled as "inferior" one great example of this was when the "west" go a chance to study the German mig-29's, they always considered the R-77 to be "inferior" but it terned out they were wrong. IMO the Mig-35 would be a great choce, AESA, ols-35, hms, tvc and much more, of couse the Typhoon would also be a great choice minus the price.

U are absolutely right, my fav is also Mig 35 and apart from the things u wrote it also has common infrastructure(assembly lines) with Su30I to a large extent thereby saving us money and balancing russia for FGFA can also be done with EJ200for LCA and upgradations for MCA.BTW an engine's cost is roughly a third of total planes cost.

 

[Bingo!]

Tejas (LCA) Fighter Jet High-Altitude Trials at Leh Successful: DRDO

India's indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has achieved a major milestone when its prototype landed at Leh air base in the high-altitude Ladakh region of Jammu and Kashmir. "Tejas (LCA) programme reached a major milestone when the prototype vehicle PV-3 landed at Leh on December 13 this year at 1326 hours," Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) officials said here on Tuesday.

The event is seen as significant on many counts as Leh airfield is situated at an altitude of 10,600 feet and is one of the highest airfields in the world with a temperature variation ranging from plus 5 degrees Celsius to minus 20 degrees Celsius. The objective of the current phase of flight trials at Leh was to expose the on-board systems to the extreme low temperatures while making an assessment of the aircraft performance in the rarefied atmospheric conditions, DRDO officials said.

Two Tejas prototypes PV-3 and LSP-2 were involved in this important environmental test. The LSP-2 prototype powered by the latest IN20 engine with Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) is in the Standard of Preparation (SOP) that would be cleared for induction into the IAF service soon. As per reports received from the trial location, the current phase of flight trial was progressing well with aircraft and systems performing well, as expected, officials said.

The aircraft were soaked overnight in cold weather, with temperature around minus 20 degrees Celsius and powered up next day for operation, officials said.

Tejas (LCA) Fighter Jet High-Altitude Trials at Leh Successful: DRDO | India Defence

Old news but seems relavent with the debate..

 

[Bingo!]

Few Leh airfied pics

 

[chachachoudhary]

"western" or European weapons are incredibly over-rated, their radars are more or less weak sause, now they do make some incredibly good systems; however, people get cought in the"western" mindset. Look at the MKI, its avionics are mostly Russian and Israeli and by Israeli i mean Jammers and targetting pod, so why didn't India choose European systems? Afterall if they're so good they would replace Russian systems with European systems wouldn't they? Of course but they didn't, the same with Mig-21's, they use Israeli avionics, at the end of the day Russian avionics are un-fairly labeled as "inferior" one great example of this was when the "west" got a chance to study the German mig-29's, they always considered the R-77 to be "inferior" but it terned out they were wrong. IMO the Mig-35 would be a great choce, AESA, ols-35, hms, tvc and much more, of couse the Typhoon would also be a great choice minus the price.

No sane person can say MIG-35 is inferior to any fighters in the fray. But, after Kargil, IAF has been thinking in the direction of "no dependency on one source" principle and with SU-30MKI being inducted in a considerable number, MIG-35 does not give much qualitative advantage.

French and european fighters, however, significantly gives IAF the required diversification of source plus opens many vistas for future collaborations.

However, none of this will affect any proposed russia-centric sourcing as they constitute an altogether seperate entity.

 

[Peregrine]

Hi,
Nice Pics, here is one of Pakistani F-16 at Skardu airport which is at altitude of 7,316 ft AMSL

 

[prototype]

i only hope that typhoon and mig r still in the race

 

[leoberetta]

Mig-35 wud have certainly cleared the leh test as IAF alraedy operated Mig-29 from leh-ladakh and kashmir regions...most probably eurofighters wud also had cleared the high operating altitude test in cold weather....its being operated by some of the EU nation in high altitude and mountainious regions......IAF just need to Induct typhoons...

 

[Mahakaya]

You just read my mind

Rafale with AESA is hell of a platform. However, I am not sure about its ground offensive capabilities.

Remember, Sweden chose Gripen over F-16, F-18.

Most importantly, both RAFALE and Gripen have a huge potential to have a carrier-based variant.

I am not sure carrier based platforms have any bearing on the MMRCA anymore. The reason I say this is because India just ordered a squadron of Mig 29K from Russia and then on Vladmir Putin's visit another order was placed with the Russians for more Mig 29Ks. Further, the navy has already infused 900 crores in the Naval LCA and chances are that the bird will fly by the end of this year. So since we already have made investments in the Naval platforms I don't think the planes with naval variants will have an edge or any bearing on the competition.

Now at max we can/should not support more than 3 different platforms >>>> if we do>>>>extra costs of training and building the infrastructure. As of now, the implications of the deal with Russians for Mig 29K can have 2 implications:

1. We might just go for Mig-35 since we will have the infrastructure ready and training might not be a problem.

2. The deal is just to placate the Russians to justify that we will not be going in for the Mig-35 (This is what my gut feeling says)

If the 2nd scenario is true and in the light of above information if it makes sense (sure does to me cos 4 platforms might be stretching it a bit too much), Mig 35 is out.

Gripen offers no real geopolitical benefits so Gripen is out too.

That leaves us with:

1. Typhoon
2. Raphale
3. F-18 SH
4. F-16 IN

I would also take out the F-16s cos of the obvious reasons. On the other hand in the wake of the recent remarks by the Indians on F-16s being supplied to the US, it seems that the USofA has ruffled the feathers of some big wigs in the MoD and the AF, obviously exposing their double standards. So I would also take out the F-18s here.

That leaves us with two alternatives the Typhoon and Raphale. Now we do have a french platform already running with us - which gives us more confidence in their latest platform. The Typhoon is an amazing bird and I personally want it to win.

The point by the end of it is:

It may just be Rphale or Typhoon - but right now there is not enough info to make inferences:

Typhoon - It might go the typhoon way if we buy the EJ 200 for the Tejas

Raphale - It might go the Raphale way since we already have a french platform running.

We actually have 4 platforms right now with the British/French Jags and BAE Harriers but then again if we chose the Raphale then we cut the platforms to 3.

Indian - Tejas, MCA
Russian - SU 30 MKI, Mig 29 Ks, Mig 21 Bis, PAKFA/FGFA
French - Mirage and Raphale

On the other hand if we chose the Typhoon then we can just take off the Raphale from top and add another platform with Typhoon i.e. 4 platforms in all, which is what we have right now and has worked well so far.

SO in my opinion it could be a call between the Raphale and the Typhoon with odds favoring the Typhoon.

Members please feel free to correct me or add more to this!

 

[Bang Galore]

"western" or European weapons are incredibly over-rated, their radars are more or less weak sause, now they do make some incredibly good systems; however, people get cought in the"western" mindset. Look at the MKI, its avionics are mostly Russian and Israeli and by Israeli i mean Jammers and targetting pod, so why didn't India choose European systems? Afterall if they're so good they would replace Russian systems with European systems wouldn't they? Of course but they didn't, the same with Mig-21's, they use Israeli avionics, at the end of the day Russian avionics are un-fairly labeled as "inferior" one great example of this was when the "west" got a chance to study the German mig-29's, they always considered the R-77 to be "inferior" but it terned out they were wrong. IMO the Mig-35 would be a great choce, AESA, ols-35, hms, tvc and much more, of couse the Typhoon would also be a great choice minus the price.

Not entirely accurate. The Su 30mki uses a mixture of French, Israeli, and Russian components. The Russians are also yet to come up with a workable AESA radar. Simply calling western systems overrated would be as unfair as the criticism the Russians are subjected too. Why should it surprise anyone that the mki has russian avionics? The key here is that systems from third parties have been asked for and integrated into the aircraft which is usually far more costlier and time consuming and therefore IAF must have had a very good reason for doing so.

Russia is in it for the money just the same as everyone else. We must put our interests first and foremost and not bother wasting our energy defending one or the other sellers. Whoever offers us the best deal and whatever suits our requirements and our geopolitical interests must get the order. It won't hurt us to keep the Russians on their toes with other viable options. The Russians have been taking us for granted for the last so many years and it's time we learnt to play hardball with them. Otherwise we will just have more of the Gorshkov type of incidents.

 

[manish123]

I am not sure carrier based platforms have any bearing on the MMRCA anymore. The reason I say this is because India just ordered a squadron of Mig 29K from Russia and then on Vladmir Putin's visit another order was placed with the Russians for more Mig 29Ks. Further, the navy has already infused 900 crores in the Naval LCA and chances are that the bird will fly by the end of this year. So since we already have made investments in the Naval platforms I don't think the planes with naval variants will have an edge or any bearing on the competition.

Now at max we can/should not support more than 3 different platforms >>>> if we do>>>>extra costs of training and building the infrastructure. As of now, the implications of the deal with Russians for Mig 29K can have 2 implications:

1. We might just go for Mig-35 since we will have the infrastructure ready and training might not be a problem.

2. The deal is just to placate the Russians to justify that we will not be going in for the Mig-35 (This is what my gut feeling says)

If the 2nd scenario is true and in the light of above information if it makes sense (sure does to me cos 4 platforms might be stretching it a bit too much), Mig 35 is out.

Gripen offers no real geopolitical benefits so Gripen is out too.

That leaves us with:

1. Typhoon
2. Raphale
3. F-18 SH
4. F-16 IN

I would also take out the F-16s cos of the obvious reasons. On the other hand in the wake of the recent remarks by the Indians on F-16s being supplied to the US, it seems that the USofA has ruffled the feathers of some big wigs in the MoD and the AF, obviously exposing their double standards. So I would also take out the F-18s here.

That leaves us with two alternatives the Typhoon and Raphale. Now we do have a french platform already running with us - which gives us more confidence in their latest platform. The Typhoon is an amazing bird and I personally want it to win.

The point by the end of it is:

It may just be Rphale or Typhoon - but right now there is not enough info to make inferences:

Typhoon - It might go the typhoon way if we buy the EJ 200 for the Tejas

Raphale - It might go the Raphale way since we already have a french platform running.

We actually have 4 platforms right now with the British/French Jags and BAE Harriers but then again if we chose the Raphale then we cut the platforms to 3.

Indian - Tejas, MCA
Russian - SU 30 MKI, Mig 29 Ks, Mig 21 Bis, PAKFA/FGFA
French - Mirage and Raphale

On the other hand if we chose the Typhoon then we can just take off the Raphale from top and add another platform with Typhoon i.e. 4 platforms in all, which is what we have right now and has worked well so far.

SO in my opinion it could be a call between the Raphale and the Typhoon with odds favoring the Typhoon.

Members please feel free to correct me or add more to this!

Where does the EJ 200 fit into this since its a huge order on its own.If we get full TOT and 100% indigenization of SU30I along with SC blade technology used in AL#! engines what is the harm in acquiring another bird from russia.
BTW Typhoon is out since it uses too much american sanction prone technology.

 

[Mahakaya]

Where does the EJ 200 fit into this since its a huge order on its own.If we get full TOT and 100% indigenization of SU30I along with SC blade technology used in AL#! engines what is the harm in acquiring another bird from russia.
BTW Typhoon is out since it uses too much american sanction prone technology.

Ok I understand your point:

But if we go with EJ 200 it means commonality of engines with the Typhoon as it is powered by the EJ 200. Also Typhoon is the only other contender which is pitching the TVC in their engine.

EJ - 200 will be a big tender of-course but will only be supplied until Kaveri is up and ready - it has already achieved 90% performance levels

Another Russian jet = 85-90% dependency on single supplier for our AF - Case of Ghorkshov rings a bell? Diversifying is very important.

What parts of Typhoon are prone to American sanctions?