Former ISI chief: Hiding Osama a victory

[RangerPK]

I don't think Mr. Hamid gul is a credible person, nor is timesnow of india credible journalism. Both are meant for each other I guess...

 

[unitedstatesofislam]

Hameed Gul should not try to become too over smart and seek cheap publicity. The truth is that ISI had no role in protecting Osamah as both ISI and CIA were clueless about this whole Osamah affair and this is because the worshipers of ISI, CIA and other intelligence agencies should remember that there is something called divine act and power and there are countless similar examples during Afghan jihad that mujahideen used to pass right in front of the tanks and check points of the Russians in full daylight and Russians would not used to have even the slightest hint of them. This is called direct divine intervention and help of that Mighty Being in whose hands lies the power over everything and He is the one who protected that mujahid named Osamah and not some ISI, MI or IB that people like Hameed Gul worship.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Hameed Gul should not try to become too over smart and seek cheap publicity. The truth is that ISI had no role in protecting Osamah as both ISI and CIA were clueless about this whole Osamah affair and this is because the worshipers of ISI, CIA and other intelligence agencies should remember that there is something called divine act and power and there are countless similar examples during Afghan jihad that mujahideen used to pass right in front of the tanks and check points of the Russians in full daylight and Russians would not used to have even the slightest hint of them. This is called direct divine intervention and help of that Mighty Being in whose hands lies the power over everything and He is the one who protected that mujahid named Osamah and not some ISI, MI or IB that people like Hameed Gul worship.

Bravo.

Well said.


This khota general does not realize that once you wear a uniform, you are no longer a man in the street.


Pak nation has given you a high place in the society

So do not $hit at your uniform

because by $hitting at the uniform, he is $hitting at the whole nation of Pakistan


peace

 

[Bang Galore]

My dear simpleton bharati, this by very definition of it is a conspiracy theory. Even the American state has publicly acknowledged no Pakistani state involvement. That's what makes it such a fantastic conspiracy theory. You can use any reasoning you want to make yourself believe Pakistani state had some involvement. This reasoning is no different than those that claim 9/11 attacks or Mumbai attacks were an inside job, yet you rubbish those as conspiracy theories. This IS a conspiracy theory no matter which way you look at it, and you ARE a hypocrite for believing in it.

Let's assume that Pakistan knows where Mullah Omar is. This is BIG assumption on my part, because one can get messages across to him through associates - this is frequent in this kind of situation. But let's work with the initial assumption. How does that prove Pakistan knew OBL was? If you recall, Al Qaeda and Taliban were virtually enemies. Taliban did not like Al Qaeda, and did not want them mounting operations such as 9/11. So, please try again.



This is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Americans said Pakistan was involved, then of course for you Pakistan was involved. If Americans said Pakistan was not involved, well there's no way Americans would say that. In other words, you'll make yourself believe whatever you want to fit your narrative.



Do you have anything to prove that they don't "buy this crap"? Or are you just assuming it, because that's what makes sense to you?

Bruce Riedel is a FORMER CIA official. He never claims CIA believes this and that, he merely farts out his own opinion.

Second, what happened to so-called "evidence"? Do you only require evidence when accusations are made against you or your allies?

This is EXACTLY what makes you a hypocrite. Of course you'll never acknowledge that.

Obama says Pakistanis knew about bin Laden | Asia | DW.DE | 24.10.2012

Pakistani experts say that President Obama's remark that former al Qaeda leader bin Laden would have escaped if the US had sought Pakistan's permission is proof that the US does not trust Islamabad on terrorism issues.

Pakistani political analysts believe that US President Barack Obama indirectly suggested during the presidential debate that the Pakistani authorities were aware of Osama bin Laden's presence in their country.

Bin Laden would have escaped if Pakistan permission sought: Obama

US President Barack Obama, in some of his most blunt remarks to date, said on Monday that Osama bin Laden would have escaped if the United States had sought Pakistan’s permission ahead of the raid on the al Qaeda leader’s compound.
Bin Laden would have escaped if Pakistan permission sought: Obama – The Express Tribune

Leon Panetta ‘believes’ Pakistan knew Osama bin Laden’s whereabouts

US defence secretary Leon Panetta has admitted he believes some people within the Pakistan government knew where Osama bin Laden was hiding.
Leon Panetta 'believes' Pakistan knew Osama bin Laden's whereabouts | Metro News


Pakistan knew of Osama Bin Laden’s whereabouts: Leon Panetta claims

Pakistan knew of Osama Bin Laden

Yeah some certificate all this......


Pakistan's bin Laden report could be a 'cover-up'

Experts say that a leaked Osama bin Laden report could be an attempt to cover up those in Pakistan who actually knew about the former al Qaeda head's whereabouts.

A leaked bin Laden report has hugely embarrassed the Pakistani military and its intelligence agencies. Made public by the Qatar-based broadcaster Al Jazeera on Monday, the Pakistani judicial commission reveals that collective failures, incompetency and negligence on part of the country's authorities allowed al Qaeda's former head Osama bin Laden to live in Pakistan undetected for more than nine years.

The five-member Abbottabad Commission, headed by former Supreme Court judge Javed Iqbal, was set up by the previous Asif Ali Zardari-led government to investigate the circumstances leading up to the US covert raid in the northwestern Pakistani city of Abbottabad on May 2, 2011 where bin Laden was killed. The commission interviewed more than 200 people, including senior civilian and military officials, and also bin Laden's three widows, who were living with their husband in the compound. The findings of the report were kept secret until Al Jazeera published them. It is not clear who leaked the report.

Pakistan's powerful military, which controls security-related policies, refused to comment on the leaked report - which did not accuse any person of complicity in protecting bin Laden - but it also did not rule out the possibility of a degree of "plausibly deniable" support from current or former officials.

"It is unnecessary to specify the names as its obvious who they are," the 336-page classified document stated. "It may be politically unrealistic to suggest punishment for them […] But as honorable men, they ought to do the honorable thing, including submitting a formal apology to the nation for their dereliction."

Intelligence expert and former high-ranking CIA and Pentagon official, Bruce Riedel, says the results of the Pakistani inquiry are very consistent with earlier reports based on American sources. "It does fill in a few important details like exactly when bin Laden moved to Abbottabad (August 2005) but it is most revealing in discussing the Pakistani side of the story."

Incompetence or complicity?

Some western analysts, however, are not ready to accept that Pakistan's ubiquitous security agencies were only "negligent" in failing to locate bin Laden's Abbottabad house. They think they were actually protecting him.

Rolf Tophoven, director of the German-based Institute for Terrorism Research & Security Policy (IFTUS), regards the report as "an attempt to cover up those in Pakistan who actually knew about bin Laden's whereabouts and get them off the hook." The expert told DW that by claiming that the authorities were incompetent, the inquiry whitewashed those members of the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence), who, he claims, knew that the al Qaeda founder was hiding in their country.

"The ISI isn't by far as negligent as the report claims it to be," Tophoven said. He believes the intelligence agency has always kept a close eye on events unfolding in Pakistan's northwestern tribal regions and is known to have had links to al Qaeda before the September 11, 2001 attacks in the US.

It is precisely because of these connections and a lack of trust that Tophoven believes the US didn't inform Pakistani authorities about the impending raid on the residential compound in Abbottabad, not far from a military academy. "I believe they kept Pakistan in the dark until the operation was well underway because they were worried that bin Laden would be tipped off."

This view is shared by intelligence expert Riedel: "Whether through incompetence or complicity, or more likely both, the Pakistani security establishment can not be trusted to fight al Qaeda. That is as true today as in 2011."

Irrespective of that, most experts agree the leak is unlikely to have the slightest effect on US-Pakistani relations. "For the next 12 to 24 months, these relations will be dictated by the constraints of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan," said Frederic Grare from the Washington-based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Impact on domestic politics

Grare, however, thinks that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's newly-elected government should consider this report a blessing. “It accuses the Pakistani security establishment of incompetence which contributes to delegitimize the same security establishment, reinforcing, at least temporarily, the hand of the civilians in their dealings with the military," said Grare.

Michel Kugelman, a South Asia expert at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, agrees: "The harsh criticism toward the military leadership is arguably the biggest takeaway from this report. It is exceedingly rare for the security establishment to come in for such harsh treatment from within Pakistan."

Kugelman points out that given the beating the military takes in the report, the new government will have "some added leverage should it choose to assert its independence from the military," particularly in the areas of security and foreign policy which are traditionally the domains of the military.

But Pakistani analysts doubt that the Pakistani military or the ISI officials are going to apologize to the nation or that Prime Minister Sharif will take the institutions or the persons involved to task.

'It's time to rein in the military'

"It is a clear indictment of the military and its agencies," senior Pakistani journalist and political commentator Saleem Asmi told DW. However, Asmi thinks that Sharif is not powerful enough to try the generals over their alleged involvement in a case which has caused the Islamic Republic a great deal of humiliation. "It is high time that the civilian authorities assert themselves and rein in the military."

Ghaffar Hussain, a London-based researcher and counter-terrorism expert, has a similar view. He told DW it was too early to expect that Sharif's government would confront the army. "He [Sharif] has just come to power. Though he has a strong political mandate, I don't think he would like to overstretch himself at the moment."

Unlike other experts, Hussain believes it is wrong to assume that the Pakistani military is a monolithic institution. "Even within the military there are factions which are doing different things." Pakistani activists have demanded a reaction from the government and expect it to implement the report's recommendations.

Pakistan's bin Laden report could be a 'cover-up' | Asia | DW.DE | 10.07.2013

 

[SMC]

Obama says Pakistanis knew about bin Laden | Asia | DW.DE | 24.10.2012










Yeah some certificate all this......

So where is the claim of Pakistani state involvement from US state? Remember, I am looking for US state claims, not a claims from an individual. Let alone any EVIDENCE of Pakistani state involvement in this matter.

It's been 2 years, US state still hasn't accused, let along provided any evidence.. it's time for you to move on.

Pakistan's bin Laden report could be a 'cover-up'

Experts say that a leaked Osama bin Laden report could be an attempt to cover up those in Pakistan who actually knew about the former al Qaeda head's whereabouts.

A leaked bin Laden report has hugely embarrassed the Pakistani military and its intelligence agencies. Made public by the Qatar-based broadcaster Al Jazeera on Monday, the Pakistani judicial commission reveals that collective failures, incompetency and negligence on part of the country's authorities allowed al Qaeda's former head Osama bin Laden to live in Pakistan undetected for more than nine years.

The five-member Abbottabad Commission, headed by former Supreme Court judge Javed Iqbal, was set up by the previous Asif Ali Zardari-led government to investigate the circumstances leading up to the US covert raid in the northwestern Pakistani city of Abbottabad on May 2, 2011 where bin Laden was killed. The commission interviewed more than 200 people, including senior civilian and military officials, and also bin Laden's three widows, who were living with their husband in the compound. The findings of the report were kept secret until Al Jazeera published them. It is not clear who leaked the report.

Pakistan's powerful military, which controls security-related policies, refused to comment on the leaked report - which did not accuse any person of complicity in protecting bin Laden - but it also did not rule out the possibility of a degree of "plausibly deniable" support from current or former officials.

"It is unnecessary to specify the names as its obvious who they are," the 336-page classified document stated. "It may be politically unrealistic to suggest punishment for them […] But as honorable men, they ought to do the honorable thing, including submitting a formal apology to the nation for their dereliction."

Intelligence expert and former high-ranking CIA and Pentagon official, Bruce Riedel, says the results of the Pakistani inquiry are very consistent with earlier reports based on American sources. "It does fill in a few important details like exactly when bin Laden moved to Abbottabad (August 2005) but it is most revealing in discussing the Pakistani side of the story."

Incompetence or complicity?

Some western analysts, however, are not ready to accept that Pakistan's ubiquitous security agencies were only "negligent" in failing to locate bin Laden's Abbottabad house. They think they were actually protecting him.

Rolf Tophoven, director of the German-based Institute for Terrorism Research & Security Policy (IFTUS), regards the report as "an attempt to cover up those in Pakistan who actually knew about bin Laden's whereabouts and get them off the hook." The expert told DW that by claiming that the authorities were incompetent, the inquiry whitewashed those members of the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence), who, he claims, knew that the al Qaeda founder was hiding in their country.

"The ISI isn't by far as negligent as the report claims it to be," Tophoven said. He believes the intelligence agency has always kept a close eye on events unfolding in Pakistan's northwestern tribal regions and is known to have had links to al Qaeda before the September 11, 2001 attacks in the US.

It is precisely because of these connections and a lack of trust that Tophoven believes the US didn't inform Pakistani authorities about the impending raid on the residential compound in Abbottabad, not far from a military academy. "I believe they kept Pakistan in the dark until the operation was well underway because they were worried that bin Laden would be tipped off."

This view is shared by intelligence expert Riedel: "Whether through incompetence or complicity, or more likely both, the Pakistani security establishment can not be trusted to fight al Qaeda. That is as true today as in 2011."

Irrespective of that, most experts agree the leak is unlikely to have the slightest effect on US-Pakistani relations. "For the next 12 to 24 months, these relations will be dictated by the constraints of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan," said Frederic Grare from the Washington-based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Impact on domestic politics

Grare, however, thinks that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's newly-elected government should consider this report a blessing. “It accuses the Pakistani security establishment of incompetence which contributes to delegitimize the same security establishment, reinforcing, at least temporarily, the hand of the civilians in their dealings with the military," said Grare.

Michel Kugelman, a South Asia expert at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, agrees: "The harsh criticism toward the military leadership is arguably the biggest takeaway from this report. It is exceedingly rare for the security establishment to come in for such harsh treatment from within Pakistan."

Kugelman points out that given the beating the military takes in the report, the new government will have "some added leverage should it choose to assert its independence from the military," particularly in the areas of security and foreign policy which are traditionally the domains of the military.

But Pakistani analysts doubt that the Pakistani military or the ISI officials are going to apologize to the nation or that Prime Minister Sharif will take the institutions or the persons involved to task.

'It's time to rein in the military'

"It is a clear indictment of the military and its agencies," senior Pakistani journalist and political commentator Saleem Asmi told DW. However, Asmi thinks that Sharif is not powerful enough to try the generals over their alleged involvement in a case which has caused the Islamic Republic a great deal of humiliation. "It is high time that the civilian authorities assert themselves and rein in the military."

Ghaffar Hussain, a London-based researcher and counter-terrorism expert, has a similar view. He told DW it was too early to expect that Sharif's government would confront the army. "He [Sharif] has just come to power. Though he has a strong political mandate, I don't think he would like to overstretch himself at the moment."

Unlike other experts, Hussain believes it is wrong to assume that the Pakistani military is a monolithic institution. "Even within the military there are factions which are doing different things." Pakistani activists have demanded a reaction from the government and expect it to implement the report's recommendations.

Pakistan's bin Laden report could be a 'cover-up' | Asia | DW.DE | 10.07.2013

So independent analysts making speculation about how the report could be a cover up, in the process making conspiracy theories themselves. Moving on, next. And please don't give me crap about how, since so many people believe in this conspiracy theory, that this cannot be a conspiracy theory. You full well know that such arguments are fallacious.

 

[Zarvan]

Hameeda bulbul is stuck in 80s and so are you. He did his service back then, but he is now stuck in that period. And by doing so he is committing treason.

the world has changed around you.

Islamists are now the biggest threat to the peace and prosperity of Pakistan.

Islamists are murdering and butchering innocent Pakistani men, women, and kids.

Now show me what percentage of those butchered men, women, and kids are secular traitors

Give me the proof for their death warrant

instead of pulling something from Islamist @rseholes.

Thank you.

I'd say more but Ramzan's sacred month stops me from pointing out fallacies, cruelty, and naked zulm committed by Islamo-fascists against innocent Pakistani men, women, and kids.

And you have no iota of shame left in you to even recognize that.

Sadly.

World hasn't changed much Mr Islamists are fighting bully USA and their secular illegitimate children the mass killings by USA and secular jerks in whole world is enough to show the reality of terrorist USA and its touts but its puppets in Pakistan have gone blind deaf and dumb

 

[Bang Galore]

So where is the claim of Pakistani state involvement from US state? Remember, I am looking for US state claims, not a claims from an individual. Let alone any EVIDENCE of Pakistani state involvement in this matter.

It's been 2 years, US state still hasn't accused, let along provided any evidence.. it's time for you to move on.

You said the U.S. has issued you a certificate of "not guilty", I maintained that it wasn't so. My post proved my assertion, left yours hung out to dry.

Btw, the Pakistanis mentioned were "agents of the state",(after all, when Obama & Panetta make their statements, they are referring to the Pakistani stae. They are not about to be talking about random Pakistanis about Bin Laden) even if not the whole state. You would also have read that the report leaked by Pakistan "does not rule out collusion".......So, how did you? Conspiracy theory, eh?

 

[SMC]

You said the U.S. has issued you a certificate of "not guilty", I maintained that it wasn't so. My post proved my assertion, left yours hung out to dry.

Your post showed quotes from INDIVIDUALS within the US state, but not an official statement from the US state. You seriously don't see the difference? So now your post has been hung out to dry

Btw, the Pakistanis mentioned were "agents of the state", even if not the whole state.

So I assume you're talking about possibility of rogue agents? How about US soldiers killing civilians in Iraq? They were agents of the state?

You would also have read that the report leaked by Pakistan "does not rule out collusion".......So, how did you? Conspiracy theory, eh?

The report is by an independent panel. They do not rule out collusion. I do not rule it out either. However, there is nothing to show that there was any collusion. You seriously cannot see the difference between speculation and reality?

And yes, conspiracy theory -- by the very definition of it no less.

 

[That Guy]

[video]http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4431763.cms[/video]

Former ISI chief Hamid Gul speaking to TIMES NOW defends ISI, congratulates Pakistan on shielding the most wanted terrorist.

First of all, using an Indian show to talk about Pakistan is foolish as it shows an inherent show of bias. Second, Hamid Gul is not only a fool who's hated by Pakistan, he also hasn't been with the ISI since 89, which is why his words should be taken with a grain of salt.

The very fact that no international respected news organizations are picking up on this story shows just how foolish this entire story is.

 

[Bang Galore]

Your post showed quotes from INDIVIDUALS within the US state, but not an official statement from the US state. You seriously don't see the difference? So now your post has been hung out to dry

I really have to pity you, having to clutch at such straws. Individuals within the U.S. state? Like the U.S. President & the Defense secretary?

The U.S. President said that informing the Pakistani government would have led Osama Bin Laden to be tipped off. That is about as damning a statement that can be made. Only someone wallowing in cussedness would not see that. Whether that information given to the Pakistani government is leaked by rogue agents or not, it's very clear that the U.S. made the determination that the Pakistani state as a whole could not be trusted. Make as many excuses as you like, that is the plain, unvarnished fact.

 

[Bang Galore]

The report is by an independent panel. They do not rule out collusion. I do not rule it out either. However, there is nothing to show that there was any collusion. .

That wasn't your argument. You were suggesting that it was a conspiracy theory to believe there was collusion. A report commissioned by the Pakistani government does not rule that out. Therefore it would not be unthinkable, certainly not on the lines of a conspiracy theory, to believe that.

 

[SMC]

I really have to pity you, having to clutch at such straws. Individuals within the U.S. state? Like the U.S. President & the Defense secretary?

Really? Really? I am the one clutching to straws? I am not the one making conspiracy theories here. I think you were meaning to tell that to yourself?

You're still failing to see the difference between the official stance of a state and what individuals within a state may believe. Or at least you're pretending to not see the difference. You yourself admitted earlier that US will not officially blame Pakistan. And that's what really matters. Please quit speculating, making conspiracy theories and move on. Or at least admit that you're a conspiracy theorist, then I couldn't care less what you say.

The U.S. President said that informing the Pakistani government would have led Osama Bin Laden to be tipped off. That is about as damning a statement that can be made. Only someone wallowing in cussedness would not see that. Whether that information given to the Pakistani government is leaked by rogue agents or not, it's very clear that the U.S. made the determination that the Pakistani state as a whole could not be trusted. Make as many excuses as you like, that is the plain, unvarnished fact.

You still have not presented any official statement from the US state. Please bring that and come back. Your brain is filled with so much hate, that you're using the arguments of the same nature that you deplore others for using, and in the process call them "conspiracy theorists". Either you're acutely aware of your hypocrisy, and don't really care that you're such a gross hypocrite, or you're so brain dead that your hypocrisy isn't obvious to you, like it is to everyone else.

That wasn't your argument. You were suggesting that it was a conspiracy theory to believe there was collusion. A report commissioned by the Pakistani government does not rule that out. Therefore it would not be unthinkable, certainly not on the lines of a conspiracy theory, to believe that.

Given what we know right now, it would a conspiracy theory to believe that there was collusion. What I am not ruling out is a conspiracy, which, if true, would obviously mean that the conspiracy theory is true. That's no different from someone keeping an open mind and not ruling out that 9/11 attacks were an inside job, but that given what we know, we have to assume that they were not an inside job.

And again, this is an independent report, although funded by Pakistani government. The think tank does not rule out the possibility of collusion, however found no reason to believe there was collusion. I am really not sure what's so hard for you to understand about this. They are NOT saying that there was collusion. If they are merely speculating and are clear in their language that they are indeed speculating, there is no need to continuously mention it. It does not add anything to the discussion. Speculation is irrelevant here.

 

[FaujHistorian]

World hasn't changed much Mr Islamists are fighting bully USA and their secular illegitimate children the mass killings by USA and secular jerks in whole world is enough to show the reality of terrorist USA and its touts but its puppets in Pakistan have gone blind deaf and dumb

As per your criminal logic, all 50,000 Pakistani men, women, and kids bombed by your thug Islamist friends, murdered in cold blood, all of these innocents are secular and illegitimate children of USA?


Wow.

Is this what they are teaching you in the mad house madrassah these days.

That your fellow citizens of Pakistan murdered by Talib@stards and their Eunuch khalifa aka Ben mofo laden, they are all secularists.


What a shameful and Abu-Jahiloon stance.

Shameful. utterly shameful.


If your ilks had balls, you would not be killing Pakistanis.

Instead you will wear your uniform and fight your enemy the West in the open field like men.

But you won't. You will hide behind women and children like Khusras ahdn Hijars just like your leader mo fo ben laden.


chulloo bhar paani main doob maro, zalimo.

Really? Really? I am the one clutching to straws? I am not the one making conspiracy theories here. I think you were meaning to tell that to yourself?

You're still failing to see the difference between the official stance of a state and what individuals within a state may believe. .

SMC yara, Well stated.

This Bang Galore guy is not here for facts.

He is here to have some mental masturbation against Pakistan.

And no logic can stop him.

Really? Really? I am the one clutching to straws? I am not the one making conspiracy theories here. I think you were meaning to tell that to yourself?

You're still failing to see the difference between the official stance of a state and what individuals within a state may believe. .

SMC yara, Well stated.

This Bang Galore guy is not here for facts.

He is here to have some mental masturbation against Pakistan.

And no logic can stop him.

 

[Zarvan]

As per your criminal logic, all 50,000 Pakistani men, women, and kids bombed by your thug Islamist friends, murdered in cold blood, all of these innocents are secular and illegitimate children of USA?


Wow.

Is this what they are teaching you in the mad house madrassah these days.

That your fellow citizens of Pakistan murdered by Talib@stards and their Eunuch khalifa aka Ben mofo laden, they are all secularists.


What a shameful and Abu-Jahiloon stance.

Shameful. utterly shameful.


If your ilks had balls, you would not be killing Pakistanis.

Instead you will wear your uniform and fight your enemy the West in the open field like men.

But you won't. You will hide behind women and children like Khusras ahdn Hijars just like your leader mo fo ben laden.


chulloo bhar paani main doob maro, zalimo.



SMC yara, Well stated.

This Bang Galore guy is not here for facts.

He is here to have some mental masturbation against Pakistan.

And no logic can stop him.



SMC yara, Well stated.

This Bang Galore guy is not here for facts.

He is here to have some mental masturbation against Pakistan.

And no logic can stop him.

First Sir I have never been to Madrassah secondly Mr you attacked and mass murdered Tribals to please master USA Sir and than they formed TTP in 2006 to take revenge the biggest Abu Juhals are the same secular liberal scums who are ready to sell anything for dollars to please their daddy USA and other kufr countries

 

[toxic_pus]

Note to self: if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and even looks like a duck, it must be a gorilla.