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Forget Nato v the Taliban. The real Afghan fight is India v Pakistan

India, Pakistan and Afghanistan should peacefully solve this. But re emerge of Taliban should be stopped at any cost and it's completely in the hands of Afghans if they want to be a sovereign nation coz if there are any signs of Taliban, leave India Pakistan but USA and NATO will again pounce Afghanistan. Who knows even Russia might join them this time as emergence of Talibs will hurt common interest of all now.
 
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We are our own enemies, I believe. India comes second.

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I read this piece a day before yesterday. It contains no surprises. It just contains relevant information on the subject and is very well put together.

My father-in-law is ex-army brigadier who served all around East and West Pakistan as part of ISI among other roles. He told me an interesting tid-bit: In early 70's ISI bribed an Afghan general and got a copy of Afghan war-plan. It called for bifurcating Paksitan with Indian help along Indus. The generals showed it to ZAB and he asked them for their answer to this problem. The result was an expansion of Army a bit before mid-70s so that Pakistan could fight a two-front war.

My take about Mujahideen is that they were cultivated during Sardar Daud's time before he turned to Pakistan to improve ties. But by that time the Soviet influence had increased to the level that Pakistanis knew what was coming and prepared accordingly. WWII had perhaps delayed Russian designs about Afghanistan by a few decades, but the occupation was a foregone conclusion. I honestly think that Afghans made a major blunder when they decided to make an enemy out of Pakistan. We could have been a pillar of stability for Afghans and we could have partnered with USA in limiting Soviet influence in Afghanistan, but alas that was not to be. Afghans were more greedy than smart, the inevitable happened, and they poured into Pakistan to find a safe haven when their strategy back-fired. Even today Pakistan is home to biggest refugee population.

Most 'analysts' blame Zia for our Afghan adventure, but few think about the alternative. Had there been any other leader, a similar strategy would have been followed. It was a matter of survival, not choice. Remember that our Afghan strategy was laid out during Bhutto era and only its overt practical manifestation occurred during the Zia years.

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Much has come to pass since 1947. We need to find an acceptable solution to Kashmir problem. A solution that is acceptable to Kashmiris, ourselves, and also Indians. We can not remain hostages of the past.

When I read history, I can not but think how Hindus must have felt in the days of Kingdoms, warfare, and Muslim over-lordship. Granted Muslim kings of North India ably defended their territory against Mongols (until Taimur's killing spree), and that they brought important social changes and stability to a fractured Sub-continent. But still, we in Pakistan in our charged feelings about India do not stop to consider the Hindu experience. That is why I have mixed feelings about names like Ghauri, Ghaznavi, & Babur when applied to military hardware. These kings were interested more in Territory, loot, and establishing dynasties (not M. S. Ghauri in this particular respect though), than morality. For these Turks religion was merely an excuse, not necessarily a motivation. As long as we in Pakistan use these names, we should not expect a rational and cool response from across the border.

Much has come to pass, and Pakistan is here to stay. No need to feel insecure and paranoid. We can easily afford to have working relationship with India, if not warm friendship. We have the bomb after all and we need not fear invasion. Covert proxy wars to break either Pakistan or India are stupid. Fanning flames of regionalism in one country would certainly come back to haunt the other.

Who knows, with our Sufi heritage, we might be able to make bridges of humanity and find ways and means to coexist in peace.

Babur was still somewhat okay .

But Ghaznavi , Ghauri and Timur ... sheesh :sick:
 
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It's no secret.

Everyone knows it.
The Obama administration is willing to withdraw even when the fight is far from one and the chances of taliban take over OR taliban participation in government are very high, they seem to have accepted that. But thanks to OBL like trophies Obama can go home with a little bit of false pride.

Already Answered about it ..... We Should W8 whether they Withdraw or not (I mean Full Withdraw) 2014 is Hardly few Months Away

what does the number of posts have tro do with anything

Birdie one Was Bit Funny ..... If you Understand sense of humor/ Humor Whateva But, Stop Quoting me on Same Thing

Thanks In Advance :cheers:
 
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Babur was still somewhat okay .

But Ghaznavi , Ghauri and Timur ... sheesh :sick:

Yeah Babar was a bit of a charmer. You can not but like the guy if you read his autobiography. But he was a bit of a twisted rogue. He gave up wine before the battle of Panipat where he was badly outnumbered in order to bring out the religious fervor. But he continued consuming opium :)

M. Ghauri was not bad, but gets a bad rap because of folk tales made by Pirthviraj Chauhan's minstrels. He was rather a bit a head of times. Persistent, keen hunter of talent, and tolerant in so far as his kingship is perhaps the only example of co-ruling setup with his brother. So, there were two kings in his empire. Weird, but says something about how flexible he was. Perhaps that is an important factor in his quest for territory and fortune and apparent success. A little know fact is that he considered present day Pakistan as his dominion before he conquered it because of historical precedent.

You are totally right about Taimur. He had blood lust on his mind. Good that he never made it to China in his last years; would have killed more in unnecessary wars.

About Ghaznavi, well he had positives and negatives. Muslims would not say much about him, but he was greedy no doubt. His raid on Somnath colored Hindu and Muslim communities' view of each other. Loot was his objective and he got plenty of it.

All in all, I see the Turkish kings in a non-religious perspective now, though I thought highly of these 'Islamic' conquerors when I started reading college level history in my pre-teen years. Obviously the History books in Pakistan focus more on Muslim rule in Northern Sub-Continent. These kings were after wealth, power, territory, and subjects like all kings. They used the name of religion like most kings and we need not see other people, religious communities, or countries based on what these kings did many hundreds of years ago.

Naming missile systems Pirthvi, Ghauri, Ghaznavi, etc... is wrong in this sense. Though I must say that in this case Indians took the lead with Pirthvi, and Pakistanis renamed one of the Hatf series missiles accordingly.
 
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Naming missile systems Pirthvi, Ghauri, Ghaznavi, etc... is wrong in this sense. Though I must say that in this case Indians took the lead with Pirthvi, and Pakistanis renamed one of the Hatf series missiles accordingly.

Prithvi means Earth - the names are inspired from the five elements, Agni means fire. The name doesn't have anything to do with Prithviraj Chauhan.
 
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India does not seem to make any attempts to impose anything on Afghanistan. India will have to work with anyone who will become Afghanistan's leader and is making appropriate preparations. Only Pakistanis want to project Afghanistan as an Indo-Pak fight. Because if they count it as a battle, may be if they win, that would be at least one for Pakistan. Who is feeling the heat? Afghans and Pakistan's tribals.
 
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India does not seem to make any attempts to impose anything on Afghanistan. India will have to work with anyone who will become Afghanistan's leader and is making appropriate preparations. Only Pakistanis want to project Afghanistan as an Indo-Pak fight. Because if they count it as a battle, may be if they win, that would be at least one for Pakistan. Who is feeling the heat? Afghans and Pakistan's tribals.

What planet do Indians live on? Do you all think you are a bunch of peace loving Ghandis?

India is the number 1 reason why there is no peace in South Asia.

They have funded Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, BLA in Pakistan. Direct genocide in Kashmir. You are the root cause of terror in the region.

India completely decimated a peaceful post soviet Afghanistan through Northern Alliance, just because of your envy and hate that Pakistan had a close ally.

Look at yourself in the mirror and understand the evil you and your country represent.
 
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Forget Nato v the Taliban. The real Afghan fight is India v Pakistan

Forget Nato v the Taliban. The real Afghan fight is India v Pakistan | William Dalrymple | Comment is free | The Guardian

The hostility between India and Pakistan, ongoing for more than 60 years, lies at the heart of the current war in Afghanistan. Most observers in the west view the conflict as a battle between Nato on one hand, and al-Qaida and the Taliban on the other. In reality this has long since ceased to be the case – we think this is about us, but it's not. Instead our troops are now caught up in a complex war shaped by two pre-existing conflicts: one internal, the other regional.

Within Afghanistan the war i s viewed primarily as a Pashtun rebellion against President Hamid Karzai's regime, which has empowered three other ethnic groups – the Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras – to a degree that Pashtuns resent. Although Karzai himself is a Pashtun, many view him as window dressing for a US-devised realignment of long-established power relations, dating back to 2001 when the US toppled the overwhelmingly Pashtun Taliban. By aligning with the Tajiks of the northern provinces against the Pashtuns of the south, the US was unwittingly taking sides in a civil war that's been going on since the 1970s.

Today the Tajiks, who constitute 27% of the Afghan population, make up 70% of the officers in the Afghan army. Because of this many Pashtuns – who make up 40% of the population – support or at least feel residual sympathies for the Taliban.

Beyond this indigenous conflict looms the much more dangerous hostility between the two nuclear-armed regional powers, India and Pakistan. In reality the US, the UK and Nato are playing little more than a bit part – and, unlike the Indians and Pakistanis, are heading for the exit. The simple truth is that the Taliban are doing as well as they are in Afghanistan because they are being supported by Pakistan. And they are being supported by Pakistan because the Pakistani generals fear being squeezed in an Indian nutcracker, faced with not only a massive Indian presence to their south but a pro-Indian regime to the north in Afghanistan. Since the partition of the subcontinent in 1947, India and Pakistan have fought three wars – the most recent in 1971 – and they seemed on the verge of going nuclear against each other during the Kargil crisis in 1999.

After the Taliban were ousted by the US, a major strategic shift occurred: the government of Afghanistan became an ally of India, thus fulfilling the Pakistanis' worst fears. Karzai hated Pakistan with a passion, in part because he believed that the ISI – Pakistan's intelligence service – had helped to have his father assassinated in 1999. At the same time he felt a strong emotional bond with India, where he had gone to university. When I interviewed Karzai in early March, he spoke warmly of his days in Simla as some of the happiest of his life. With Karzai in office, India seized the opportunity to increase its political and economic influence in Afghanistan, re–opening its embassy in Kabul, opening four regional consulates, and providing reconstruction assistance totalling $1.5bn.

Pakistani generals have long viewed jihadis as a cost-effective and easily deniable means of controlling events in Afghanistan as well as Kashmir. It is unclear how many still endorse this strategy and how many are having second thoughts. There are clearly those in the army and the ISI who are now alarmed at the amount of sectarian and political violence the jihadis have brought to Pakistan. But that view is contested by others who continue to believe the jihadis are a more practical defence against Indian hegemony than even nuclear weapons. For them, support for carefully chosen jihadis in Afghanistan is a vital survival strategy worth the risk. General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, the commander-in-chief of the Pakistan army, was once in this camp. How far he has changed his position remains a matter of debate.

Pakistan-watchers are, however, unanimous that while Kayani is mindful of the Taliban threat in his own country, his burning obsession is still India's presence in Afghanistan. As I was told by a senior British diplomat in Islamabad: "At the moment, Afghanistan is all [Kayani] thinks about and all he wants to talk about. It's all he gets briefed about and it's his primary focus of attention. There is an Indo-Pak proxy war, and it's going on right now."

Much will depend on what India decides. It is unclear if its government will choose to play an enhanced role in Afghanistan after the departure of American troops. Some Indian hawks argue that by taking on a more robust military role in Afghanistan, India could fill the security vacuum left by the US withdrawal, advance its regional interests, compete with its Chinese rival for influence in the country, and thwart its Pakistani enemy at the same time.

The efforts of Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan's prime minister, to reach out to India may strengthen the hand of the moderates in Delhi. What is certain though is that the future will be brighter for all three countries caught in a deadly triangle of mutual mistrust and competition if Pakistan and India can come to see the instability of Afghanistan as a common challenge to be jointly managed rather than a battlefield on which to escalate their long, bitter feud.


NATO... They have been trying to get India to commit defense resources to Afghanistan... because they are fucked there... so my dear forumites get ready to read more of these opinion pieces in near term.

India will do what it seams fit for India.... for now... doing nothing is working great for India...
 
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What planet do Indians live on? Do you all think you are a bunch of peace loving Ghandis?

India is the number 1 reason why there is no peace in South Asia.

They have funded Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, BLA in Pakistan. Direct genocide in Kashmir. You are the root cause of terror in the region.

India completely decimated a peaceful post soviet Afghanistan through Northern Alliance, just because of your envy and hate that Pakistan had a close ally.

Look at yourself in the mirror and understand the evil you and your country represent.

Emperor Palpatine
images

Is that you behind this message?
 
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What planet do Indians live on? Do you all think you are a bunch of peace loving Ghandis?

India is the number 1 reason why there is no peace in South Asia.

They have funded Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, BLA in Pakistan. Direct genocide in Kashmir. You are the root cause of terror in the region.

India completely decimated a peaceful post soviet Afghanistan through Northern Alliance, just because of your envy and hate that Pakistan had a close ally.

Look at yourself in the mirror and understand the evil you and your country represent.


And all this while Pakistan was doing .... let me guess ... Nothing...
 
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For the last 8 years India have funded and armed TTP through its embassies in Kabul in collusion with Karzai.

If Afghanis had any sense they would realise they are just being used.

The problem pakistanis does not have any proof to show , just hot gases only .

Oh I forgot , their ministers do have proof but they are waiting for right time to reveal it.
 
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Yeah Babar was a bit of a charmer. You can not but like the guy if you read his autobiography. But he was a bit of a twisted rogue. He gave up wine before the battle of Panipat where he was badly outnumbered in order to bring out the religious fervor. But he continued consuming opium :)

M. Ghauri was not bad, but gets a bad rap because of folk tales made by Pirthviraj Chauhan's minstrels. He was rather a bit a head of times. Persistent, keen hunter of talent, and tolerant in so far as his kingship is perhaps the only example of co-ruling setup with his brother. So, there were two kings in his empire. Weird, but says something about how flexible he was. Perhaps that is an important factor in his quest for territory and fortune and apparent success. A little know fact is that he considered present day Pakistan as his dominion before he conquered it because of historical precedent.

You are totally right about Taimur. He had blood lust on his mind. Good that he never made it to China in his last years; would have killed more in unnecessary wars.

About Ghaznavi, well he had positives and negatives. Muslims would not say much about him, but he was greedy no doubt. His raid on Somnath colored Hindu and Muslim communities' view of each other. Loot was his objective and he got plenty of it.

All in all, I see the Turkish kings in a non-religious perspective now, though I thought highly of these 'Islamic' conquerors when I started reading college level history in my pre-teen years. Obviously the History books in Pakistan focus more on Muslim rule in Northern Sub-Continent. These kings were after wealth, power, territory, and subjects like all kings. They used the name of religion like most kings and we need not see other people, religious communities, or countries based on what these kings did many hundreds of years ago.

Naming missile systems Pirthvi, Ghauri, Ghaznavi, etc... is wrong in this sense. Though I must say that in this case Indians took the lead with Pirthvi, and Pakistanis renamed one of the Hatf series missiles accordingly.

Prithvi means Earth . Indian missiles are names after elements of earth like prithvi (Earth or soil or land)

Jal (Water)

Akash (Sky/Air)

Agni (Fire)

It's not names after the Indian king and even if it was, it wouldn't be wrong because he was not an invader of any country like those you've named your missiles after.
 
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Interesting article



OPs jab at Northern alliance vs Mujaheddin?
@Oscar @KRAIT

The article is full of self wished loopholes. For eg, it still harks on the narrative that getting the Taliban back is only the Pakistani wish and does not include a NATO realization that they are a force that cannot be left alone.
 
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Another article by a writer, who may never have been to Afghanistan. Dont know a bit about Afghanistan. Afghanistan is such a complex country, tribal, ethnic and other issues. Its just that USA and its g/f the UK have been defeated in Afghanistan, they need an excuse to show to their public, and what could be the best excuse then blame ISI and Pakistan for everything?
You will see similar articles popping up from everywhere now more frequently. Regarding India, there is lot of talk going on in social media regarding deployment of Indian Army in Afghanistan after American withdrawal.

That will be a very interesting development. Worst of Indian dreams will be coming true. I wish Indians listen to their Hawks for this time atleast.

Indians deploying their military forces in Afghanistan? They do realize what would it mean for the Taliban to see Mushriks entering Afghan territory.

The Indians will not make any inroads into Afghanistan. This is crystal clear. The Taliban will return to power with elements of the Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazaras being represented in the government this time. As for the proxy showdown, it has been going on for a long time. Our intelligence has picked up more than once, attempts by India & Karzai to sabotage Pakistan - America relations. Especially after the Salala incident. The final outcome in Afghanistan will suit Pakistan, the Taliban, and let the American Military and the Obama Administration finally leave with some "pride." Really only for media consumption. Regardless of what people think, Obama truly wants a total withdrawal. How I know this? Well lets just say a little birdie told me...

I like you already.
 
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Indians deploying their military forces in Afghanistan? They do realize what would it mean for the Taliban to see Mushriks entering Afghan territory.

Not going to happen. Why would India put its men in harm's way, when just sending investments and training Afghan forces is doing the job well enough.
 
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