Fixing the blame for lack of defence against Drone attacks

[Awesome]

Let's be clear about one thing. The overwhelming majority wants to see drones taken out. No referendum to prove this but you have to be living under a rock to believe otherwise.

Option1: Kayani.

He literally has the gun which can shoot down the drones.

But our constitution says Pakistan armed forces will defend its territory under direction from the federal government.

Option2: Gilani/Zadari (Federal government)

In 4.5 years since this government has been in power, this government has not given a single directive to defend against the drones

Option3: Parliament

In equal number of years it has not given a clear indication to the federal government that either it takes the drones down or they will proceed with vote of no confidence.

If it only gives a resolution against the drones, the federal government can again not follow it.

Option4: Nation.

The nation brought these people to power, the nation has not protested enough, has not blocked Nato supplies to a halt, physically.

Of course, there is a fine line between protest and revolution, so nation can only go so far with protests without going into revolution territory.

 

[Ignited Mind]

This might help. An article by a Pakistani himself:

Pakistan's cheap talk on drones - by Dawood Ismail Ahmed | The AfPak Channel

Personally, I feel that Pakistanis are being a whole lot unfair when they try to put the blame on anyone else other than the Army command.

It wasn't the civilians who brought Uncle Sam to Pakistan, Army did.

It wasn't the civilians who gave the permission to Uncle Sam to bomb Pakistan, Army did.

It wasn't the civilians who gave their approval to drone strikes, citing them as being in the interest of Pakistan (read Wikileaks expose about General Kayani), Army did.

It's not the civilians who exercise control over Pakistan's foreign and defence policies, Army does.

How on Earth can you, then, blame anyone else but the Army?

The Army is the sole centre of power in Pakistan. Blaming anyone else, hence, would be akin to lying to oneself.

Do you guys seriously believe that Gilani or Zardari or even Imran Khan (in future) would be able to order the Pakistani Army to do something which the Army doesn't want to do? Seriously?

Army is the one that takes such decisions in Pakistan. You might like it or you might not like it. However, you cannot wish away the writing on the wall.

 

[xTra]

I think Pakistan Government should bring a Whitepaper on Drone Attacks,

Currently nobody knows under whose order this attacks are being carried out.

 

[karan.1970]

I dont buy option 1. When a border checkpost sees an armed intruder (air borne or not), its primary responsibility is to confront/capture or destroy it. At that time a permission from federal govt is not needed. Thats normally a part of ROE on borders. Now unless there is a documented ROE from Defense Ministry that says American drones/forces are not to be confronted, the responsibility of tacking any intrusions is flatly the Military's responsibility..

My 2 cents

 

[Awesome]

I dont buy option 1. When a border checkpost sees an armed intruder (air borne or not), its primary responsibility is to confront/capture or destroy it. At that time a permission from federal govt is not needed. Thats normally a part of ROE on borders. Now unless there is a documented ROE from Defense Ministry that says American drones/forces are not to be confronted, the responsibility of tacking any intrusions is flatly the Military's responsibility..

My 2 cents

You are assuming there is a ROE that Pakistan armed forces will defend from all attacks on Pakistan

There may be one to defend against ground attacks from Western border. Pakistanis fought back the Nato attack till the USAF came in and destroyed the post. But I think there probably isn't one for attacking aircraft from western border.

There may be ROE for various scenarios.

Legally speaking Kayani has a defence.

I think Pakistan Government should bring a Whitepaper on Drone Attacks,

Currently nobody knows under whose order this attacks are being carried out.

The order to kill Pakistanis? We all know its from Obama.

The order to not defend Pakistanis? We don't know, but its not very hard to guess.

 

[karan.1970]

You are assuming there is a ROE that Pakistan armed forces will defend from all attacks on Pakistan

There may be one to defend against ground attacks from Western border. Pakistanis fought back the Nato attack till the USAF came in and destroyed the post. But I think there probably isn't one for attacking aircraft from western border.

There may be ROE for various scenarios.

Legally speaking Kayani has a defence.

I dont believe that Kayani has a defense. If the ROE states that aircrafts from Western borders shouldnt be fired upon, then that would be an exception that needs to be proven. The default ROE of all border forces is to guard against intruders (else there is no need for their presence on the border). And there were incidents in the past where Pakistani border forces fired on NATO helis and got fired back on..

 

[Awesome]

I dont believe that Kayani has a defense. If the ROE states that aircrafts from Western borders shouldnt be fired upon, then that would be an exception that needs to be proven. The default ROE of all border forces is to guard against intruders (else there is no need for their presence on the border). And there were incidents in the past where Pakistani border forces fired on NATO helis and got fired back on..

Very seldom and few occasions. If you read Code 663 email when the OBL raid was going on, the choppers did not sneak in they were picked up by the ATC and they were in contact with the choppers and the language wasn't like $%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$^@!#$#@$%FDG%^ Why are you here? It was like, "Hey, you lost or something, need any assistance?" IT was only when they stopped at Abottabad, when the ATC got panicky.

 

[karan.1970]

Very seldom and few occasions. If you read Code 663 email when the OBL raid was going on, the choppers did not sneak in they were picked up by the ATC and they were in contact with the choppers and the language wasn't like $%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$^@!#$#@$%FDG%^ Why are you here? It was like, "Hey, you lost or something, need any assistance?" IT was only when they stopped at Abottabad, when the ATC got panicky.

Thats probably because at that time, there was a air base within Paksitan being run by Americans and helis are a common means of transportation. And probably thats what caught the ATC on the wrong foot..

However, drones in Pakistan have but one objective. And they are always armed... Cant compare teh 2 cases mate..

My view is that Mushy, when he was the President, would have given a go ahead (implicit or explicit) for drone attacks, probably under threat from USA, and the present govt never rescinded it. Nobody wants to bell the cat and is passing the buck, at the cost of poor civilians who get killed in Pakistan as collateral damage

 

[Sugarcane]

I will put blame on people of Pakistan, We are still not matured enough to become a Nation

 

[Jango]

All the relevant parties in Pakistan regarding this issue are in a deadlock here, and nobody is wanting to take the responsibility.

The PPP( government) does not want to get in trouble with the US, the Parliament is not yet that much bold to present something tangible, and the army cannot do it on it's own, for obvious reasons.

Everybody has some reservations to the resolutions being brought up by somebody else. Army wants to distance itself away from this issue, and let the government handle it, while the government is not ready to do it.

Looking at this drone issue in a broader perspective, NATO supplies is also a reason that drones are on a halt right now. But a moment can come that the US in it's arrogant imperialist mindset says, ok, you people are not going to open the supply, we are going to let loose the drones. And then a sort of a mini standoff could hatch.

The next month might be a crucial one in this issue.

And it would be just plain wrong to single out COAS, or the PM or Zardari as to the culprits behind letting the drones constantly attack.

And the answer as to why the Pak army cannot shoot the drones, and then wait for orders from upper levels is plain BS.

There must be clear orders that NOT to shoot down the drones, and that is why the units stand down. When a drone enters, it is spotted in minutes, and everybody related knows that a drone is in the airspace.

Very seldom and few occasions. If you read Code 663 email when the OBL raid was going on, the choppers did not sneak in they were picked up by the ATC and they were in contact with the choppers and the language wasn't like $%^$%^$%^$%^$%^$^@!#$#@$%FDG%^ Why are you here? It was like, "Hey, you lost or something, need any assistance?" IT was only when they stopped at Abottabad, when the ATC got panicky.

That code 663 email has quite a few fishy things.

there is no PMA ATC to begin with AFAIk.

 

[VCheng]

Let's be clear about one thing. The overwhelming majority wants to see drones taken out. No referendum to prove this but you have to be living under a rock to believe otherwise.

Option1: Kayani.

He literally has the gun which can shoot down the drones.

But our constitution says Pakistan armed forces will defend its territory under direction from the federal government.

Option2: Gilani/Zadari (Federal government)

In 4.5 years since this government has been in power, this government has not given a single directive to defend against the drones

Option3: Parliament

In equal number of years it has not given a clear indication to the federal government that either it takes the drones down or they will proceed with vote of no confidence.

If it only gives a resolution against the drones, the federal government can again not follow it.

Option4: Nation.

The nation brought these people to power, the nation has not protested enough, has not blocked Nato supplies to a halt, physically.

Of course, there is a fine line between protest and revolution, so nation can only go so far with protests without going into revolution territory.

Option 5: ALL of the above.

(Yes, I am being serious here. The causes are clearly multifactorial.)

 

[Awesome]

Option 5: ALL of the above.

(Yes, I am being serious here. The causes are clearly multifactorial.)

I kept multiple choice open just for you.

 

[VCheng]

I kept multiple choice open just for you.

Just for me? Aw, I am touched!

 

[Awesome]

The way democracy works, the guys at the top should adhere to the collective wills of the guys at the top.

I started with one assumption that most of this country wants to see drones taken out.

For this purpose we elected a parliament which selected a government, the government hired army men (well the Army was already there) and somehow the buck stopped there.

You can understand why Pakistanis keep yearning for a benevolent dictator or Islamic system now and then. Both are impractical, but if they somehow ever happened we will be all better for it.

Benevolent dictator at the top is one guy you have to convince or remove. Now if the dictator doesn't listen the removal process is hard but not as hard as it is in a democracy since you have to go through all the levels, get so many people on board.

In the Islamic system there is a benevolent dictator who supposedly is afraid of God and is constantly worried that he would be answerable to God for all the screwups made here. So his sense of higher power keeps him in check.

But we have to work with the most imperfect but most practical system - Democracy. In this system first and foremost the understanding has to be put across by the nation to the MPAs that you need to start vote of no confidence proceedings. Even though there is only a year left at least this message would be passed that if you cross the nation there will be hell to pay.

 

[Developereo]

Option 5: ALL of the above.

(Yes, I am being serious here. The causes are clearly multifactorial.)

I agree.

1. The decision rests with the civilian govt, but Kayani is surely advising them against it. Downing an American drone is not like apprehending a wayward fisherman. The ensuing military/economic/diplomatic escalation is something Pakistan can ill afford.

2. The dynamic duo loves shirking all responsibility behind the plausible facade of GHQ dominance.

3. It's the parliament's job to chart a long term strategy for dealing with the drones. How is Pakistan prepared to deal with the fallout?

4. The people are responsible for electing these fools over and over. However, given the feudal domination of the political scene and the lack of viable alternatives (until now), the nation's share of the blame is the smallest.