Five killed as gunmen target Shias marking Ashura in Kabul

[Rasengan]

Quite to the contrary:

I think a secular Turkey (not the one that the current fascist Erdogan is trying to make) is a good model for the Muslim world.

For all those who never Mohammad Ali Jinnah -- he was a secular Muslim -- and if you look at the (dense) work of the Reconstruction of Islamic Thought by Eqbal -- so was he.

Rather than citing Sheikhs, Nujoomees, Mujadids, it would much benefit the Muslim world if they put their lot in astronomy, physics, empirical methods, modern science, mathematics, etc.

The decay in the Muslim world in internal -- and it is due to the shutting down of the natural faculties of reason, free inquiry and thought.

If it was not for Atta-Turk (yes some of his actions are not compatible with modern human rights) -- Turkey could have been Afghanistan today.

.

We have a difference of opinion on this matter. If Pakistan copied the Turkish system before Erdogan, then this would mean no azaan can be delivered loudly, women can't wear scarfs, alcohol can be consumed openly, and Islam has no place at the state level. Prove to me that Quaid Azam was a secular man? The Golden period Islam is the ideal system in which the Muslim world should follow. Science, physics, mathematics as well as religion should be promoted.

 

[pakistani342]

We have a difference of opinion on this matter. If Pakistan copied the Turkish system before Erdogan, then this would mean no azaan can be delivered loudly, women can't wear scarfs, alcohol can be consumed openly, and Islam has no place at the state level. Prove to me that Quaid Azam was a secular man? The Golden period Islam is the ideal system in which the Muslim world should follow. Science, physics, mathematics as well as religion should be promoted.

Quaid Azam [this may get me kicked of the form]: drank alcohol, like pork sandwiches (this is noted by several people who are considered authorities on his life) and wanted a secular state.

If given the choice which do you want:

The Golden period Islam -- which many people don't know, if you are referring to sections of Spain or perhaps the Fatmid dynasty was largely secular.

We have a difference of opinion on this matter. If Pakistan copied the Turkish system before Erdogan, then this would mean no azaan can be delivered loudly, women can't wear scarfs, alcohol can be consumed openly, and Islam has no place at the state level. Prove to me that Quaid Azam was a secular man? The Golden period Islam is the ideal system in which the Muslim world should follow. Science, physics, mathematics as well as religion should be promoted.

Muslims sadly do not know their history -- try reading the travels of Ibn Batutta where he talks about Muslim women appearing topless in his court and he asking them, that at least cover yourself in my court.

NOTE: I'm not advocating Muslim women go topless -- just telling you how detached Muslims are from what they think is their history

No, that is what the devil cunningly wants.

Do not forget Sheikh un Najd and the Age of the Devil from Najd.
(mind you, many of the Ulema are already secularized anyway).

I am curious: what empirical method or rational argument did the Sheikh un Najd use for conjuring up this Thesis?

 

[Rasengan]

While what you have written is true -- Turkey fared much better than its contemporaries in the Muslim world: Pakistan: Egypt, Indonesia, Iran -- and credit has to be given to Ata-Turk and secular Turks who laid the foundation of a modern society.

Turkey has the same secretariat fault lines as do Iraq, Pakistan and so many other Muslim countries -- but you never hear of secretarial violence in Turkey.

Further the coups were by and large bloodless

One side-effect that Ata-Turk may or may not have foreseen is that the enormous state pressure on the clergy in Turkey and the open criticism of religious mechanisms from the secular quarters of society forced the Turkish religious body(ies) to come up with rigorous responses to life, history, science as when compared to say in Pakistan.

Try kicking up a discussion with an educated Turkish Muslim cleric and then compare him to a Pakistani TV Mollah -- the difference is night and day.

The Turkish economy in the last three decades has performed poorly, therefore the legacy provided by Ataturk was full of corruption, discrimination and oppression. Under Erdogan the economy has improved drastically. Don't get me wrong, there are some things about Erdogan which are not good, yet he is a million times better than those secularists Turks. Give me an example where Turkey has fared better than Pakistan apart from the economy. By the way Indonesia in the next two decades will be a major economy, I have some friends in the Chinese Government who are involved in certain projects and they believe that the country has huge potential. Turkey is predominately a Sufi nation, thus why would there be secretariat violence? In Pakistan the scenario is completely different and some of our policies have created this divide between Sunni and Shia.

Which particular coup are you on about? The 1980 coup saw hundreds of people killed in prison and thousands were tortured. Turkey doesn't have a rosy history In Turkey the Saudi ideology never came because Jihad happened in Afghanistan and unfortunately Pakistan was next door. There are some good Imam's in Pakistan, you shouldn't blame all of them because a few minority have given them a bad name.

Quaid Azam [this may get me kicked of the form]: drank alcohol, like pork sandwiches (this is noted by several people who are considered authorities on his life) and wanted a secular state.
If given the choice which do you want:

Please give me the names of those people? In one of his last speeches to the public, he clearly stated that Pakistan needs to find its own system of governance that was in-tuned with the principle of Islam. Given the choice I want an Islamic system because I am a Muslim, however, I respect your opinion. Nobody will kick you out of the forum The Golden period of Islam is centered on Baghdad which was the center of learning and art before Hulagu Khan burned it to the ground. It was never secular, however, the government of the day practiced a system which can be implemented today. Both religion and science was important at the state level. Colonialism is one of the biggest factors why some third world countries are in strife.

Muslims sadly do not know their history -- try reading the travels of Ibn Batutta where he talks about Muslim women appearing topless in his court and he asking them, that at least cover yourself in my court.

NOTE: I'm not advocating Muslim women go topless -- just telling you how detached Muslims are from what they think is their history

I have never read a quote where Ibn Batutta said that Muslim women appeared topless in the Sultan court of Morocco? Please can you provide me reference on which book you read this piece of information on?

Ibn Batutta did travel to the Kingdom of Mali and the Muslim women did appear to exhibit the characteristics of remaining topless, however, Islam was new to the region and people mixed local customs with religion. This was wrong, yet people don't define a religion. The Golden period of Islam had some flaws, which is why most Muslims look to the Rashidun Caliphate system. Islamic history is not perfect, because kingship doesn't exists, but there are instances where we have shaped the world where it is today.

 

[pakistani342]

The Turkish economy in the last three decades has performed poorly, therefore the legacy provided by Ataturk was full of corruption, discrimination and oppression. Under Erdogan the economy has improved drastically.

Turkey was able to do well under Erdogan because of the secular foundation that Ata-Turk laid and the secular Turks worked hard for almost eight decades to produce an intellectual power house.

Erdogan arrived at the right time -- and he's undoing the same secular foundations which have resulted in the intellectual freedoms to pursue science.

Don't get me wrong, there are some things about Erdogan which are not good, yet he is a million times better than those secularists Turks.

You do know I spent a large portion of my life living in Turkey -- I would write a thesis on this.

Give me an example where Turkey has fared better than Pakistan apart from the economy.

Again this will require some work but we can compare scientific output by a nation that is 1/2 the population of Pakistan.

By the way Indonesia in the next two decades will be a major economy, I have some friends in the Chinese Government who are involved in certain projects and they believe that the country has huge potential. Turkey is predominately a Sufi nation, thus why would there be secretariat violence? In Pakistan the scenario is completely different and some of our policies have created this divide between Sunni and Shia.

No there was a lot of secretarial strife historically in Turkey -- you ask Turks and on of the fruits of secularism is that without it Turkey would be Iraq.

No Turkey and Pakistan are so similar in ways people who have not lived in Turkey do not realize that. It's like we're the same people separated by Iran (and maybe we're Iran's poorer cousins who grew up). The culture, the expression -- you can translate them word for work.

Which particular coup are you on about? The 1980 coup saw hundreds of people killed in prison and thousands were tortured. Turkey doesn't have a rosy history In Turkey the Saudi ideology never came because Jihad happened in Afghanistan and unfortunately Pakistan was next door. There are some good Imam's in Pakistan, you shouldn't blame all of them because a few minority have given them a bad name.

Do you remember the Zia era (?) -- are you kidding me? Turkey and Pakistan -- there is no comparison -- anybody who thinks that is living in am opaque bubble

Some good Imams ??? -- dude that is like saying Turkey has some good academicians -- you needs lots of good intellectuals, businessmen etc.

Please give me the names of those people? In one of his last speeches to the public, he clearly stated that Pakistan needs to find its own system of governance that was in-tuned with the principle of Islam. Given the choice I want an Islamic system because I am a Muslim, however, I respect your opinion. Nobody will kick you out of the forum The Golden period of Islam is centered on Baghdad which was the center of learning and art before Hulagu Khan burned it to the ground. It was never secular, however, the government of the day practiced a system which can be implemented today. Both religion and science was important at the state level. Colonialism is one of the biggest factors why some third world countries are in strife.

Read Jinnah of Pakistan by Wolpert -- the incident it cites is that they he rushed to cover his pork sandwiches at a picnic so some people who stumbled onto him would not take offense. I'm pretty sure that's the reference (it's been like 20 years since I read it)

The problem is Muslims do not know what being Muslim means.

I really have to run -- but this is a subject I'm open to doing a slow detailed investigation on.

 

[Spring Onion]

RIP

 

[Rasengan]

Turkey was able to do well under Erdogan because of the secular foundation that Ata-Turk laid and the secular Turks worked hard for almost eight decades to produce an intellectual power house.

Erdogan arrived at the right time -- and he's undoing the same secular foundations which have resulted in the intellectual freedoms to pursue science..

The very same foundation which you mention occurred in 1950. Erdogan first became Prime Minister in 2003, which means that for 53 years the Turkish political system was so incompetent that they couldn't change the economic condition of their country By the way how can you claim that Turkish intellectual power occurred eight decades ago? Aren't you forgetting the Ottoman Empire which had countless of philosophers, scientists and mathematicians? You have simply whitewashed Turkish history withing a span of just eight decades Islam promotes the ideals of education, however, you forget how in the last two centuries colonization in the Muslim world has disrupted our progress. The Renaissance period would never have occurred without the Muslim's because most of that gold generously given by King Musa trickled down to Europe.

You do know I spent a large portion of my life living in Turkey -- I would write a thesis on this.

Again this will require some work but we can compare scientific output by a nation that is 1/2 the population of Pakistan.

Well Turkey is a beautiful country, so I am not surprised that you lived there. Your knowledge is probably better, however, there's no harm in having a debate A person can only learn if he starts to question things in my opinion. Hong Kong's scientific output is greater than Turkey's and its population is only 7 million people. But I am not disputing your viewpoint. There are many things in Pakistan which are wrong, such as we have a feudal society which has hindered our progress. Nonetheless, our future is bright if the Government of the day implements the right policies.

 

[pakistani342]

The very same foundation which you mention occurred in 1950. Erdogan first became Prime Minister in 2003, which means that for 53 years the Turkish political system was so incompetent that they couldn't change the economic condition of their country By the way how can you claim that Turkish intellectual power occurred eight decades ago? Aren't you forgetting the Ottoman Empire which had countless of philosophers, scientists and mathematicians? You have simply whitewashed Turkish history withing a span of just eight decades Islam promotes the ideals of education, however, you forget how in the last two centuries colonization in the Muslim world has disrupted our progress. The Renaissance period would never have occurred without the Muslim's because most of that gold generously given by King Musa trickled down to Europe.

I really have to run my friend but an anecdote:

Some of the contemporaries of Copernicus were Turkish Astronomers and they were studying some of the same phenomena. The Turkish Mollahs had one of the best Astronomical observatories in the world at that time razed to the ground by convincing the Padeshah that there was danger that the astronomy could be used of Astrology.

Read Turkish history before making broad generalizations -- it's very interesting on the 40 years preceding the fall of the Ottoman Empire to the 80 years proceeding it.

 

[Rasengan]

No there was a lot of secretarial strife historically in Turkey -- you ask Turks and on of the fruits of secularism is that without it Turkey would be Iraq..

Give me a example where secretarial strife has occurred in Turkey. The Ottoman empires fight with the Safavid dynasty doesn't count because they were two opposing nations. You can't simply whitewash seven centuries of Ottoman history and claim that only Ataturk made Turkey progress forward. No doubt Pakistan and Turkey share similar cultures and expressions, yet there are many reasons why they have progressed further than us. If the Karachi Economic Plan was implemented on time and we had no war, then Pakistan would have replaced South Korea as an economic giant.

Do you remember the Zia era (?) -- are you kidding me? Turkey and Pakistan -- there is no comparison -- anybody who thinks that is living in am opaque bubble

Some good Imams ??? -- dude that is like saying Turkey has some good academicians -- you needs lots of good intellectuals, businessmen etc.
.

Pakistan's never had a bloody coup Not a single shot had been fired and the Army asked the President to dismiss the Government of the day. Whereas the 1980s coup in Turkey in western circles is regarded as a bloody coup because hundreds of people were killed inside jails, and thousands were tortured. What Zia did afterwards is a different story as your question was in reference to a bloody coup. Pakistan did have alot of good businessman, yet Bhutto's nationalization crippled Pakistan's economy and families like the Habib never recovered fully who had to repurchase their businesses. In that time they were at least a decade in front of the Tata's and Reliance Industries.

Read Jinnah of Pakistan by Wolpert -- the incident it cites is that they he rushed to cover his pork sandwiches at a picnic so some people who stumbled onto him would not take offense. I'm pretty sure that's the reference (it's been like 20 years since I read it)

Stanley Wolpert first visited the Indian sub-continent in 1948, by which time Jinnah was dead. Therefore, unless he saw the incident himself then I take his opinion with a pinch of salt. Besides that propaganda was peddled by Mr Chagla who was a Minister in the Indian Government and he had a personal grudge against Jinnah. This was because in 1928 Mr Chagla was removed from the honorary secretary position of the Muslim League by Jinnah. Why the hell would Jinnah eat pork sandwiches in the middle of a political campaign? Seriously they could have done a much better job in fabricating a lie. During his youth Jinnah did drink alcohol, yet he changed when he met Iqbal. Hadrat Umar before he converted to Islam was famous for drinking, however, he changed and became one of the greatest men to walk on this earth. The book written by Wolpert came out in 1984, thus it holds no relevance.

 

[Rasengan]

I really have to run my friend but an anecdote:

Some of the contemporaries of Copernicus were Turkish Astronomers and they were studying some of the same phenomena. The Turkish Mollahs had one of the best Astronomical observatories in the world at that time razed to the ground by convincing the Padeshah that there was danger that the astronomy could be used of Astrology.

Read Turkish history before making broad generalizations -- it's very interesting on the 40 years preceding the fall of the Ottoman Empire to the 80 years proceeding it.

Sultan Murad III razed the observatory to the ground based on the stars after the death of his father. Taqi Al-Din promised victory against Persia, which turned out to be false. On the advise of Ebussud Efendi the Sultan decided to raze it to the ground. Was this a sensible thing to do? The answer is clearly no, however, one man's judgement cannot reflect poorly on all the imams that have come through in the last 1400 years. Before that incident the Ulema promoted astronomy.

 

[wiseone2]

Ataturk was a secularists dictator because his party controlled Turkey between the period of 1923-1950 with an iron rod. None of the elections were fair under his leadership and he introduced draconian laws against the Muslims. In the last 4 decades Turkey has faced many military coups, so the theory mentioned in your post is false.

what you say might be true

In general i would have lived better in turkey for the past 60 years as opposed to egypt, pakistan, iran, iraq or syria
i would have a better chance of being happy in life

 

[Rasengan]

what you say might be true

In general i would have lived better in turkey for the past 60 years as opposed to egypt, pakistan, iran, iraq or syria
i would have a better chance of being happy in life

How do you know that your life would have been much better in Turkey for the past 60 years?

 

[wiseone2]

How do you know that your life would have been much better in Turkey for the past 60 years?

i know people from turkey, iran, iraq, egypt and pakistan. all of them pick turkey over the rest. they are reservations about secularist in turkey. but it pales in comparison to the problems in other countries

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

It happens when you have less will to crush militants. When you have LEJ terrorist abid raza kotli from gujarat NA107 sitting in parliament, These types of incidents are bound to happen. Nothing surprised.
RIP......

Sad ....dont know when this blood bath will stopped

When we stop hypocrisy. Let crush all militants in one line. If they continue to support them due to political reason, these types of incident will not stop.
Hope, we get secular leader.

Imran, Sharif both are bends towards extremist elements.

 

[nangyale]

It happens when you have less will to crush militants. When you have LEJ terrorist abid raza kotli from gujarat NA107 sitting in parliament, These types of incidents are bound to happen. Nothing surprised.
RIP......


When we stop hypocrisy. Let crush all militants in one line. If they continue to support them due to political reason, these types of incident will not stop.
Hope, we get secular leader.

Imran, Sharif both are bends towards extremist elements.

This incident happened in Afghanistan, and the killer and the killed were (most probably) all Afghans.
It has got nothing to do with Pakistan and Pakistani politicans.

 

[nangyale]

Afghanistan often accuses Pakistan of aiding and abetting the extremist elements.

Their accusations doesn't mean a thing in the real world.
It is Pakistanis like yourself who take every accusation by enemy propagandists to be a fact which harms Pakistan.