Final operational clearance for LCA in June 2015

[greatone]

Yes because the bad reputation of delayed timeframes and not delivering according to contracted standards will surely increase the demand of that house from this contractor.

Whats your solution then ? Discard HAL ? Next you will propose to outsource our nation's defense to France and Russia directly.
Afterall French air force is waaay more professional than our IAF, isn't it ?
This attitude of let them do it, they are better is shortsighted to say the least.
Nobody became good before becoming mediocre.

My solution is to clean up HAL's act rather than IAF chucking a whopping 20% of India's total foreign exchange towards Paris without nary a care!

And for what? IAF already owns everything in PAF's inventory and Rafale will make no difference in an air war between India and China.Either squeeze the French for everything they got or say goodbye to any chance France has of maintaining a cutting edge aeronautical industry.

Rafale needs India waay more than India needs Rafale, won't you agree ?

 

[Derolo]

When rockets fired by ISRO were falling from the sky - all this pessimist was against it - see how they deliver now, there needs always small steps to learn how to walk give them time let them do their job - No hurry take your time we need an organization like ISRO from HAL

It's a national emergency so they need to hurry. Now.

 

[sancho]

Whats your solution then ? Discard HAL ? Next you will propose to outsource our nation's defense to France and Russia directly.

First of all HAL is not the developer, DRDO is and they are responsible for the delays and problems in the development.
Secondly, I want them to finish the development according to the requirements and IAF will take it. That's why they remain with the order of MK1 and have even placed a bigger order for MK2. We need to learn to get things done and not only talk big and don't deliver anything.

Rafale will make no difference in an air war between India and China

Yes, finally getting proper deep strike capability, advanced radar and avionics, as well as the best weapon pack in the region, will not make a difference, but taking LCAs below the required standards, just for national pride will.

 

[SQ8]

You didn't answered the question though!

I did answer that question, you dont accept the house just because you had asked someone to build it. The same logic applies to the changes that were asked of the F-35.. the Vikramaditya.. and so on. You accept it only when it meets your conditions.

Now here is the core plot.. it all depends on your requirements(which are subject to change) on the matter.

 

[sancho]

I did answer that question, you dont accept the house just because you had asked someone to build it. The same logic applies to the changes that were asked of the F-35.. the Vikramaditya.. and so on. You accept it only when it meets your conditions.

And that's the reason why not more MK1s will be ordered at this point unless the requirements are met!

Now here is the core plot.. it all depends on your requirements(which are subject to change) on the matter.

Which are the same for the MK1, since IAF didn't changed major things other than the addition of the refuelling probe for the FOC. The delay then is on the developer, to fulfill the requirements that were set up and contracted years ago.

 

[SQ8]

And that's the reason why not more MK1s will be ordered at this point unless the requirements are met!



Which are the same for the MK1, since IAF didn't changed major things other than the addition of the refuelling probe for the FOC. The delay then is on the developer, to fulfill the requirements that were set up and contracted years ago.

But why order them at all? the time spent with the 40 or so odd Mk1s and manufacturing them might be better spent working on the Mk.2 A solution would be to get the Mk.1s ..use them for basic training and type integration, and then sell them on to another operator when the need is fulfilled.

 

[greatone]

First of all HAL is not the developer, DRDO is and they are responsible for the delays and problems in the development.
Secondly, I want them to finish the development according to the requirements and IAF will take it. That's why they remain with the order of MK1 and have even placed a bigger order for MK2. We need to learn to get things done and not only talk big and don't deliver anything.

I would rather IAF order more Mk 1s as is ,just to give a push to indigenous capability if nothing else.
Just to make up numbers since IAF keeps crying about lack squadrons everytime it wants new toys which daddy(read Indian people) can't afford.
At any rate Mk 1 is more capable than Mig 21 and Mirage as an overall package.

On one hand IAF says they are seriously worried about depleting squadrons strength and on other they refuse to induct a plane that is better than what they already have.

Yes, finally getting proper deep strike capability, advanced radar and avionics, as well as the best weapon pack in the region, will not make a difference, but taking LCAs below the required standards, just for national pride will.

Can you please answer the question instead of dodging and cherry picking parts of my statement you want to reply to ?
Let me lay out a hypothetical scenario.

The year is 2025. China attacks India over dispute of Dalai Lama's succession.(BTW this is the only timeframe when Rafale will relevent as a cutting edge fighter)


Scenario 1 All126 Rafales have been delivered at considerable cost to national exchequer which severely handicaps IAF's capital budget to procure fifth gen planes which China is fielding in numbers alongwith force multipliers like AWCS, refuelers and like.


Scenario 2 India gave Rafale the pink slip to focus the money on MKI upgrade,LCA and FGFA.

Will Scenario 1 lead to any different out come than Scenario 2? And will the gap, if any, be big enough to justify getting a whole new platform when IAF already operates so many.(Hint: they refuse indigenous trainer citing effect of different platforms on operating costs.)

I don't think so.

 

[ptltejas]

why didn't India just decide to license build the Mirage 2000-5 MK2???
could of had a few hundred of them by now.

Good Idea but late now.

 

[Screambowl]

Mate LCA cleared for four tons of useful load with BVRs and ECMs. Thank you.

try them in war zone, it will clear all doubts withing 6 months. Why to wait for such a long time and paper work. Make a single sheet of clearance

 

[sancho]

I would rather IAF order more Mk 1s as is ,just to give a push to indigenous capability if nothing else.

How does it give an indigenous push, if don't force the industry to finish their developments and simply take foreign products to solve problems?
Take the Kaveri engine as the example, the prime failure of the LCA program and IAF rejected to use the M88 core for the Kaveri / Snecma engine, because they wanted DRDO to keep developing the indigenous engine, since just taking the foreign core doesn't make DRDO more capable in developing such techs!

On one hand IAF says they are seriously worried about depleting squadrons strength and on other they refuse to induct a plane that is better than what they already have.
That's wrong, IAF never refused to induct LCA MK1, but they induct it only after achiving FOC and fixing the remaining problems.

Can you please answer the question instead of dodging and cherry picking parts of my statement you want to reply to ?

I don't dodge anything but your points simply doesn't make any sense! You deny the technical capability of Rafale, while ignoring the lack of capability of LCA before achieving FOC.

Will Scenario 1 lead to any different out come than Scenario 2? And will the gap,

Of course it will, because IAF will be far more capable with 126 x Rafales, than with MKIs as capable fighters only, not to mention that their operational costs are far lower, since they can operate Rafale in missions currently only the MKI can do, but at far less costs. Or because it will have a sure number of 126 x Rafales by then, while we don't know yet how many LCAs will be available, because the MK2 is only under development and just pased the design stage. So risk for further delays and therefor reduced squadron numbers is far higher, than with Rafale.
What's also important is, that Indian industry will be far more capable by then, because of Rafale, the ToT we get, the 50% offset it generates back to India. LCA as a program was meant to set up the indigenous industrial base, M-MRCA is meant to improve the indigenous industrial base![/QUOTE]

 

[Superboy]

Only 1 SP built so far and under testing. It takes at least 12 SP planes to make 1 squadron. 2018 is the earliest possible date for IOC. IOC means first squadron operational. JF-17 achieved IOC in February 2010 when first squadron of JF-17 became operational.

 

[dray]

Mainly answered here:
HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 679

It simply doesn't matter if LCA MK1 is more capable than 3rd gen Mig 21s, but that it meets the development and operational requirements of a 4th gen fighter.

That's what should only matter when there is a crisis situation;
1. Our Mig 21s are aging, became unreliable and rather risky to fly, our young pilots are unnecessarily dying due to that plane.
2. Our present squadron strength is way below the desired level and expected to fall further, if there is a military crisis now, then how are we supposed to handle it?

We are not a super rich nation who can import at will, neither a tech giant who can produce anything as per the specifications and deliver on time, and here the goalpost is constantly being shifted by the IAF, LCA is already capable of replacing Migs, but now they want 4th gen (what is the definition of 4th gen, isn't MK1 a 4th gen?), are we or the IAF really in a position to be such snobbish? In fact going by the past experience IAF will say MK2 is a stupid 4th gen in the age of 5th gen.

When I am dying in cold I will not look into the brand, cut & fittings of the coat I am getting as long as it is better than what I am wearing.

Not even close!

Close enough if we be realistic and expect a delay in MK2 also, partly because of the manufacturer and partly because of the probable future change of specifications by IAF.

IAF will still need 400 light class aircraft in next 2 decade | Page 2

IAF had shown it's commitment to LCA by ordering not only 1 but even a 2nd squadron of MK1 + 4 squads of MK2 before IOC or even the design changes of MK2 were finished, but they are not responsible for development delays.

Look at it this way, you want to build a new house, because you current one is too old. You set up requirements and a time line with the construction company, but the company mess things up. The work is delayed and promised features are not according to what you wanted. Do you accept the house because it's still better and more modern than your current one, or do you insist on fulfilling the contracts and to get what you actually wanted?

But isn't it a better idea to plug the gap with whatever we have at hand instead of chasing the birds in the bush, especially when what we have at hand is better than what it is supposed to replace? MK1 in its present configuration will still add more capability to IAF, and will also be safer for our pilots.

In your example of the house, will you still be nitpicking about the "Features" of your new house when your present house is about to fall on your head and you have no other place to go? And was it entirely the fault of the construction company or your demands also kept changing over the years?

And being an indigenous effort, LCA deserves some patronage from IAF for long term gains, here we are not dealing with a foreign company who are making profits out of our money.

 

[dray]

First of all HAL is not the developer, DRDO is and they are responsible for the delays and problems in the development.
Secondly, I want them to finish the development according to the requirements and IAF will take it. That's why they remain with the order of MK1 and have even placed a bigger order for MK2. We need to learn to get things done and not only talk big and don't deliver anything.

Btw, IAF changed its mind and asked for MK2 after seeing the N-LCA specification, MK2 was not the part of the initial plot.

 

[rcrmj]

This lca tejas programme has been joke

I have never seen a fighter project so poorly managed and miss so many deadlines.

The worst part is India has open access to assitance in any area of project management manufacture technology of aerospace in the world bar China.

It is five years late by now there should have been fifty mk1,tejas in service already and mk2,should have passed foc

they do mate, they do get direct helps from foreign countries, without their professional and expensive helps, it'd would be lucky those Indian can put MK1 on sky in 2020s.

 

[sancho]

That's what should only matter when there is a crisis situation

On the contrary! LCA is developed as a 4th gen multi role fighter from the start, therefor the benchmark to induct it are 4th capabilities not 3rd gen of the Mig 21. Just as it have to counter 4th gen fighters of our opponents, not only 3rd gen Mig 21 varients.
Don't put national pride above national security, we need LCA with the required oprtional capability to secure the nation, not just to give us pride!

Close enough if we be realistic and expect a delay in MK2 also, partly because of the manufacturer and partly because of the probable future change of specifications by IAF.

Lol, on the one hand you expect delays of MK2, on the other hand you want to induct more fighters that are not as required. That alone doesn't make sense, because if you expect delays, you will make sure that the older version at least provides minimum required capability and not less.

In your example of the house, will you still be nitpicking about the "Features" of your new house when your present house is about to fall on your head and you have no other place to go?

As said before, if the roof is about to fall of course you take the new house even with problems, but that is not the case of IAF! Neither Mig 21 nor LCA are meant to be the hi end of IAF, today it's MKI, Mig 29 and Mirage 2000, in future it will be FGFA, MKI and Rafale. So the roof of the house is fine and IAF made sure of that, by ordering additional MKIs,upgrading Mig 29s and M2Ks, as well as going for FGFA and Rafale!
The Mig 21 just as LCA are lo end additions to the capability of the fleet, but by far won't have operational importance as the fighter for the bulk of IAFs missions, so the lack of the Migs is hardly comparable to a crack in the window of your current house and you fix that for the short term, rather than taking the new house with problems.

And being an indigenous effort, LCA deserves some patronage from IAF for long term gains

What do you think the increased order of MK1 and the order of 4 MK2 squadrons is? Commitment to the indigenous project! But that doesn't mean they have to lower their standards for induction, only because it's an indigenous development.
If we take the pointless pride factor out and look at the reality, we would see that IAF and IN have already made orders for over 180 x LCAs, which is huge for the disappointing performance of ADA and DRDO in the project, the fact that development goals can't be met by the MK1 and the MK2 is just a paper plane at the moment and you still don't see that as support?