Fierce gun fight rages in Kashmir

[Proud2Indian]

Which facts?

Go through my last few posts and its apparent.

There is nothing more for me to say - I have presented historical arguments and heard inane response such as 'its not possible for a minority to commit atrocities on a majority' Nor have you anything to say about the chronology of events related to Indian transgressions and aggression against Pakistan that led to Pakistan supporting the Freedom movement.

Please, factually refute any of that, I'll wait till you do so.

hmmm...seems I have to take diff approch ....
I wrote
Fact reamain that Pakistan interfered in the other states internal matter.....refute the fact that Paksitan was not involved....this is fact that no one can deny ...

Ok so lets take one step at a time ...
"Do you deny that Paksitan Govt interfered, by supporting Paksitan's nationals (by whatever means...Arming, allowing to cross border, Moral whatever suits you) crossing into Kashmir, in Kashmir before King HS acceded to India?"

Simple yes or no.....I am intrested in one word.....For discussion ....I am fine if you say no....


tx

 

[IceCold]

There is a big difference in approach and philosophy. You cannot compare US with Pakistan. Its fact that US invade Iraq, Afghanistan, came to help France and others countries in worlds war II, invaded Germany, defeated Japan etc.... But, USA never declared those pieces of land as part of its territory....

Its highly appreciable that Pakistani army came to support Kashmir people against atrocities (I doubt it has happened) form ruling King. But why did Pakistan send army disguised as tribal people…. Why didn’t they had guts to come out and say to Hari Singh openly that stop or we’ll attack …………. Reason is simple…… motive was not to support and bring justice to people of Kashmir but to capture land. This goes against Pakistan and shows mentality and approach of past and present governing bodies. We cannot blame its citizen because they have been taught to believe what govt. wanted them to believe.

May God give us wisdom to distinguish between good and evil .. ...

Cheers have a nice wk end

Seriously i have heard alot of BS recently but you broke all records, congratulations to you for doing that. While i wont waste my time in replying to rant, one point i do want to reply too where you said point was to capture more land and not bringing justice to the people of Kashmir. To blow your theory out of the window allow me to state just one fact and that is even to this day Pakistan says when we talk about kashmir, its not just about the kashmir under the Indian rule but also the Pakistani controlled one and the part under the Chinese. Pray tell me does India say anything even remotely close to this other then that kashmir is an integral part of India, a part which India took to the UN at the first place and was declared a disputed territory. Don't be hypocrite, at one end you are not even willing to accept the disputed nature of the kashmir valley by declaring it as an integral part of India and on the other have the audacity to accuse Pakistan of capturing a piece of land.

 

[IceCold]

Fact reamain that Pakistan interfered in the other states internal matter.....refute the fact that Paksitan was not involved....this is fact that no one can deny ...

really! does east Pakistan ring any bell and who interfered into who's internal matter.

 

[Proud2Indian]

really! does east Pakistan ring any bell and who interfered into who's internal matter.

Icecold..I have seen your post in thead Problems with Pakistan and recent Mosque bombing....you looked more balanced person....THis was not what I was expecting from you....

If you have read the Argument Myself and AM are having, I was talking about the interference that pakistan did in 1947 in Kashmir...there was no BD, no Siachin nothing......I you see my old post...My point is that from day 1 of exsistence PA and its political elites are acting against India ....This has forced India to act in self-intrest ...BD, Siachin are result....not cause.....

I am more than happy to argue my reaons and to listen counter-argument....



tx

 

[sms]

Seriously i have heard alot of BS recently but you broke all records, congratulations to you for doing that. While i wont waste my time in replying to rant, one point i do want to reply too where you said point was to capture more land and not bringing justice to the people of Kashmir. To blow your theory out of the window allow me to state just one fact and that is even to this day Pakistan says when we talk about kashmir, its not just about the kashmir under the Indian rule but also the Pakistani controlled one and the part under the Chinese. Pray tell me does India say anything even remotely close to this other then that kashmir is an integral part of India, a part which India took to the UN at the first place and was declared a disputed territory. Don't be hypocrite, at one end you are not even willing to accept the disputed nature of the kashmir valley by declaring it as an integral part of India and on the other have the audacity to accuse Pakistan of capturing a piece of land.

Dear Sir,
I’ve expected better responses from senior member like you. I respect your opinion but all you have written above does not change the fact that the Kashmir was attacked and if it was to help people of Kashmir why didn't Pakistan withdraw troops and declare Kashmir as independent state?

Technically Kashmir became part of India after Instrument of accession was signed. , It’s sad that the stubbornness and shortsighted vision from both side lead to this situation. First Pakistan did not withdraw troops as agreed during cease fire and secondly India and Pakistan did not hold plebiscite.

End result thousands of people are suffering.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

hmmm...seems I have to take diff approch ....
I wrote
Fact reamain that Pakistan interfered in the other states internal matter.....refute the fact that Paksitan was not involved....this is fact that no one can deny ...

Ok so lets take one step at a time ...
"Do you deny that Paksitan Govt interfered, by supporting Paksitan's nationals (by whatever means...Arming, allowing to cross border, Moral whatever suits you) crossing into Kashmir, in Kashmir before King HS acceded to India?"

Simple yes or no.....I am intrested in one word.....For discussion ....I am fine if you say no....
tx

I have been extremely patient with you, and explained in great detail all of your points, with historical references, despite the numerous tangential issues you have raised. I have answered very specifically the precise canard you just raised again, with inane responses from you, and given you plenty of opportunity to refute me.

You have on the other hand continued to troll and go off on rants, and my patience has ended. It is obvious that proper discourse and debate is not your intent.

Good day, and find another forum to troll on.

 

[IceCold]

Icecold..I have seen your post in thead Problems with Pakistan and recent Mosque bombing....you looked more balanced person....THis was not what I was expecting from you....

If you have read the Argument Myself and AM are having, I was talking about the interference that pakistan did in 1947 in Kashmir...there was no BD, no Siachin nothing......I you see my old post...My point is that from day 1 of exsistence PA and its political elites are acting against India ....This has forced India to act in self-intrest ...BD, Siachin are result....not cause.....

I am more than happy to argue my reaons and to listen counter-argument....



tx

Actually i am watching that argument very closely and to be honest i did not wanted to interfere as some very good points were being raised from both sides until i read that comment of yours about interfering.
1947 or i think the year was 49, Pakistan's irregulars were sent there and AM has provided solid reasons as to what that happen, however you cannot justify that move against India why because kashmir wasn't part of India, it was a territory with a muslim majority and a hindu leader. We went there for whatever may be the reason, but certainly that move was not against India in any sense, moreover when India too came there, it was India that took the matter to UN, not us and according to the resolutions passed then, it was mutually agreed that a consenses will be held under the UN in which Kashmiri people will be allowed to decided for their faith, that right of plebiscite has not been given to them as we speak, and this is what the whole dispute is all about.
I have said on numerous occasions on this forum that why is India so afraid of holding the plebiscite as promised in Kashmir, think for a second what if Kashmiries vote in the favor of India, Pakistan gets out of the equation for good, after all what grounds will be left for us to hold on too and moreover we will have to conduct a similar plebiscite on our side as well meaning if we loose, we will have to withdraw from there and hand it over to India and same stands vice verse.However just by saying it belongs to India and UN resolutions does not hold any value does not make it yours, it will remain a disputed territory and a matter of hostility between the two sides. Sixty years have passed and sixty more years will pass unless we decide to sit down and with good intention try to resolve the issue.

 

[Mark&Porus]

Whoa - you guys banned him?

 

[dabong1]

Also, Mukti Bahinis were people from BD and Indian Army took active part in the war. That's precisely why I said send you army for active participation too.

After years of media conditioning by the indian govt you are led to think that the kashmris in IOK love india but its all those punjabi and pushtoon pakistanis that come cross the LOC that are the problem........have it never crossed your mind that is kashmiris that have fled the killing fields of kashmir are the ones that cross back over and take revenge on the indian occupation forces for what has happened to there loved ones?

The indian army did not come into the fighting until the pakistani amy was on the verge of defeat.....we are doing the asme thing bit over a longer a period of time......you can send reinforcement into kashmir we could not that during the bangladesh war.
Dont worry when your o n the verge of defeat in kashmir the pak army will roll in and take the glory like you guys did in dhaka.

 

[hembo]

After years of media conditioning by the indian govt you are led to think that the kashmris in IOK love india but its all those punjabi and pushtoon pakistanis that come cross the LOC that are the problem........have it never crossed your mind that is kashmiris that have fled the killing fields of kashmir are the ones that cross back over and take revenge on the indian occupation forces for what has happened to there loved ones?

The indian army did not come into the fighting until the pakistani amy was on the verge of defeat.....we are doing the asme thing bit over a longer a period of time......you can send reinforcement into kashmir we could not that during the bangladesh war. Dont worry when your o n the verge of defeat in kashmir the pak army will roll in and take the glory like you guys did in dhaka.

Thanks for your frank opinion. As I had said in the earlier post, reconfirmed again by you; kashmir militancy is not same as BD struggle, at least logistic-wise. So if you still think pak army will be able to roll in the improbable time of India being on the verge of defeat, that's simply bad strategy. That is never going to happen as stated by you only (bold sentence above).

Also, believing that, kashmir terrorist are only people from kashmir, IOK, *** or other-wise, is again a case of complete denial. As you suspect that my views are GOI sponspored media conditioned, I have scope for same suspision for your views as well.

 

[ajpirzada]

this proxy war will not end now . even if we solve the kashmir issue nothing's gonna change . these guys want to destabalize india . they wont stop anywhere .
ISI is helping them . everybody knows that , so dont try to correct me but the thing is that you know usa at one time was an ally of osama bil laden . but when their aim got fullfilled ( i.e. driving russians out of afghanistan ) osama turned against usa . this shows that these guys just want to fight . you know that they are also turning towards you . 133 blasts in 90 days in pakistan cant be work of only one terror organization .



plz dont compare usa with terrorists . for you once upon a time usa was like god and now that it has kept a strict eye on you about the economic aid , you are turning against them .

lol at ur reasonin.. u r tellin me to not compare USA with terrorists but u didnt give me any reason. read my post again and prove it to me that wat i said was wrong.... prove it to me that talibans were not willing to give OBL to a third party given US provides evidence of their involvement. i know 9 yrs of brainwashin has got this in ur mind that attack on afghanistan was done for humanity but for once think that y didnt US provide evidence to talibans who would then have given OBL to any third party.
and about ISI helping freedom fighters in kashmir.. tell me one thing that wat kind of help is ISI providing.. you know we, all pakistanis, support freedom fighters in kashmir and provide them moral and political support. then y only talk about ISI. they dont need to rely on ISI for gettin weapons which is available from anywhere.

 

[ajpirzada]

And why should I don't go back to '47 pray tell me....why you want to have selective dicussion.....I ask again....why Kashmir was forced...who forced the hand the king of HS to sign the accession to India....If Paksitan has respected the soverignity of state this would not have happened....welll as for problem in Kashmir who attacked in '65...why that war was fought.....you know what your capabilities are so you tried terrorism...fair enough now don't cry when you are replied in same language...deal with it...India has withstood the terrorism for 25 years....now its your turn...show how strong you are....

tx

and y do u want to go back to 1947 when their was no infiltration problem back then. no such incidents took place during 1947 to 1971 given you wanna compare 1965 war with proxy war which is wat this thread is about. you simply want to escape the fact that infiltration started after u gave birth to proxy war bw india and pakistan which was in 1971...
also dont doubt our capabilities however your capabilities are definately in doubt after that report came out which highlighted how ready you were for a war with pakistan. should i remind you wat it said??? and also dont worry about our strength.. we have done through all this during 80s when USSR was in afghanistan. so we are not goin anywhere and will always be there for you

 

[ajpirzada]

ooo i just realised he got banned.....
does anyone know wat was the reason?????

 

[ajpirzada]

sir that means after 1971 and the siachen victory you realized that you could not win a conventional war with india so you started sending terrorists into india . plz correct me if im wrong .

have you not read that report which came out tellin us about the indian armed forces preparedness????? i guess if u read that again ull get the answer to ur question

 

[godsavetheworld]

have you not read that report which came out tellin us about the indian armed forces preparedness????? i guess if u read that again ull get the answer to ur question

There have been several reports about almost every army in the world. Are you going to defend your country based on reports claiming unverifiable facts? If that is so, then you should be prepared for take some serious damage, because of your un-preperadness.