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So what will work in our Pak land?
Well for my ancestors culling of Muslims + hope of a new land worked enough for them to leave properties behind in India....

For the new generation...I am not sure...Maybe we need an app how to be Pakistani + another app how to "sponsor" for Pakistan (instead of the bucket challenge)...New generation doesnt seem to know more than what the latest app is!

How about we put the blame of the last 10 months (Caretaker Government + PTI rule) as well as that of the next 4.2 years also on the previous Government? Hell, while we are at it, why not just put the blame on the previous Governments UNITL PTI is in power and after that we can start blaming the successor.

We should also put that in the constitution!
Do you agree or not that the previous govtS left a mess?!

How long does it take to clean up a 70 yr of mess?

And the worth of this govt will only surface ONCE THAT mess is cleaned or controlled!

I'm not PTI supporter, but I believe increase of oil prices is a must for residential consumers. Why should govt pay subsidies? Stop blaming govt and stand on your own feet.
People too used to spoon feeding dont know how real world looks like...They will pay taxes in UK / EUROPE /USA/ AUSTRALIA but will cry if "similar" tax can save their country! Sure these countries have welfare...But that was built on taxes not from thin air and not through subsidizing ANYTHING! In West nothing is free! There is a joke that if USA can tax air they would!

Now you are just trolling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_terrorism

@Mangus Ortus Novem
 
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Well for my ancestors culling of Muslims + hope of a new land worked enough for them to leave properties behind in India....

For the new generation...I am not sure...Maybe we need an app how to be Pakistani + another app how to "sponsor" for Pakistan (instead of the bucket challenge)...New generation doesnt seem to know more than what the latest app is!


Do you agree or not that the previous govtS left a mess?!

How long does it take to clean up a 70 yr of mess?

And the worth of this govt will only surface ONCE THAT mess is cleaned or controlled!


People too used to spoon feeding dont know how real world looks like...They will pay taxes in UK / EUROPE /USA/ AUSTRALIA but will cry if "similar" tax can save their country! Sure these countries have welfare...But that was built on taxes not from thin air and not through subsidizing ANYTHING! In West nothing is free! There is a joke that if USA can tax air they would!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_terrorism

@Mangus Ortus Novem




Ah my brother,

You know my elders also left... we came without anything... we believed in our Home Pakistan... my elders believed in Jinnah.

I still do. I might be old fashioned or just be old... but somehow, after more than thirty years here... Pakistan is still in me... #IAmPakistan still...

What saddens me that the Pakistaniat that was the duty of political leaders has been reduced to subahiat/lasaniat/qoumiat...

And then our young just wish to become coconuts.... brown on the outside and white from within...

We have an ancient land...and Our Land is the oldest civilisation...

The Idea of Pakistan was the most powerful idea that made millions to leave everything behind.

Pakistan was built on belief of Our Land, Our Home... but the way these Nooraz/Zardariz/Bhuttoz/Dieselz have raped Our Land....

The f.......ing 18th has turned Pak into confederation and these scums threaten Our Land with division....

This Land of Ours is a blessing from the Almighty... No power on Earth can undo Pakistan....

I shall not forgive the bloody establishment if they played their little games again and forgive these #EconomicTerrorists now...

Do forgive me for the emotional expression... but I do find this painful sight...

But then 27th happened and the old Green Blood in me got warm again... felt a deep pride!

Let us just crush this LaWhore Judicial system... that is the key to bring these Economic Terrorists to justice.

#PakistanZindabad

Mangus
 
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I'm not PTI supporter, but I believe increase of oil prices is a must for residential consumers. Why should govt pay subsidies? Stop blaming govt and stand on your own feet.

Can't in an economy that is a shithole. This ain't America where your effort will get you through.
 
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A spoiled idiot kid of super rich elite what da f any one expects from him & how could he know any way About middle or lower class
 
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Nope kids should be taught to think of ways to get out of a mess not taunt like the poor ability of the unwise....After all:
Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
Do you really think its actual exam paper written by kids ? :D


Its trolling probably written by some adult meant for fun
 
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Can't in an economy that is a shithole. This ain't America where your effort will get you through.

The economy is in such condition because of people like yourself who expects everything from govt. Do you export goods worth at least $50 Million yearly. Further, if you are not happy to live there, seek asylum in Afghanistan or India. Who is stopping you?

People too used to spoon feeding dont know how real world looks like...They will pay taxes in UK / EUROPE /USA/ AUSTRALIA but will cry if "similar" tax can save their country! Sure these countries have welfare...But that was built on taxes not from thin air and not through subsidizing ANYTHING! In West nothing is free! There is a joke that if USA can tax air they would!

Change comes from people. The people in Pakistan who loves to blame govt only expect govt and the state to take the burden of their everything. In the western countries, kids as young as 15 or 16 are encouraged to earn their own money, and they do, this not only give them additional income but a sense of responsibility. A decade ago they used to earn that while working in fast food chains or stores, now most of them earn through social media YT specifically. While I have seen even "30 yr old kids" dependent on their daddies income, showing off their cars which are considered junk else where in the world.
 
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Change comes from people. The people in Pakistan who loves to blame govt only expect govt and the state to take the burden of their everything. In the western countries, kids as young as 15 or 16 are encouraged to earn their own money, and they do, this not only give them additional income but a sense of responsibility. A decade ago they used to earn that while working in fast food chains or stores, now most of them earn through social media YT specifically. While I have seen even "30 yr old kids" dependent on their daddies income, showing off their cars which are considered junk else where in the world.
totally agreed....I have stated this observation on this forum before...
 
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Do you agree or not that the previous govtS left a mess?!

How long does it take to clean up a 70 yr of mess?

And the worth of this govt will only surface ONCE THAT mess is cleaned or controlled!

I don't really. When you compare the situation that PPP left for PML you would be surprised at the position that PML Government left us in. And when you add to it the difficulties that were created for PML by the establishment either directly or through PTI (Dharnas and seizure of Islamabad whereby visits of heads of state from China, Turkey and Russia were cancelled), parasites such as Khadim Rizva & Chief Justice with his galore of Suo Moto notices of each and every move of the Government etc.

With a clear mind and conscience, just think about it, how much more the PML Government would have been able to accomplish if the Establishment was assisting and supporting it as it is doing with the PTI Government? With no nonsense and endless Suo Moto notices, with no victimization with NAB and with no non-democratic actions by PTI and others such as Khadim Rizvi etc.; even with their corruption.

PML is no PPP; and my hate for both parties, because of my support for Karachi, has been no secret over the years on the forum. PML has no doubt done a lot for the country albeit with a lot of corruption and kickback whereas PPP has done nothing but corruption and kickback. But that is another topic altogether.

Which brings us to the period of Caretaker Government and the current PTI led Government. I believe that the damage these 10 months or so have done is more than the damage that entire duration of PML had done. The devaluation alone is so criminal that those responsible for it should be held accountable. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

I'm not PTI supporter, but I believe increase of oil prices is a must for residential consumers. Why should govt pay subsidies? Stop blaming govt and stand on your own feet.

Well said, however what you conveniently missed is the fact that the rupee has been depreciated by a whopping 28% or more by the powers that be in the past 8 months or so has led to Petrol, amongst ALL other things, to become a lot more expensive when paying for in PKR! But consumers should take everything sitting down, perhaps consumers should bend over too, for rest of the things.
 
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@Dubious @Reddington @zulu @Retired Troll @ps3linux @PakSword @Mentee @MastanKhan
My dear Paks,
I do understand that remaining #PakPositive is tough. But this is the Only option.
Solutions! We need solutions...
How can the same political personalities offer solutions who are the rootcause of problems themselves.
PMIK gov is stillborn. Sad yet true.
Out of the frying pan into the Fire!
Mangus

Being a finance person through and through even I am worried now, problem is we can goddamn print all the PKR currency notes we need, but we cannot print dollars the mode of financial exchange. approx 27 billion dollar payments are due in the next 3 years means roughly 9 billion dollars a year, our CAD is net negative and frankly I don't see a way how to repay that money. N.S paying roughly 7 billion dollars may be, 1 year gone what about the next two and that damn debt trap the f**king Chinese have put us in through their OBOR/CPEC ($47 billion) there are no tariffs for Chinese vehicles traveling on these roads which will be made and paid by our hard earned money. Remember these are all commercial loans and carry substantial interest rates in dollar terms. The money coming in from chinese/arabs its all commercial loans and carry markup we have to pay them back. This precarious economic situation is double worry because CAD means we have nothing for defense procurement with enemies sitting along all borders we are in deep sh**. My suggestion would be to declare emergency as soon as IMF payment for this year is managed, get rid of this sick judicial system, get the money back from all corrupt I mean all including bureaucrats the saudi way without any foreign healthcare facilities/travel to any one. Unfortunately despite hating negativity I don't see a way out, increasing exports is the only way but what would we export? bangladesh in the last 10 years has become the 2nd largest exporter of shirts worldwide, vietnam which is still a shithole till late 90s had nothing now they are exporting 200 billion dollars worth of products. To improve exports it will have to be 10 years plan, identify the products/markets, start building the units, start training people required for that product thats the only way I see. IKs vision of getting the looted money back even if it goes through (although I have my serious doubts about it) doesnot solve the long term problem, how to increase the exports?

Honestly I am expecting that we should default let the international players take everything from us, may be a new start will put us on right track this time.

Seconded @Mangus Ortus Novem may be its sounds to you kinda surprising but making imf employees on top is the only way .FATF grey list for so long was hanging on our head but neither state bank nor govt showed interest to implement changes and the danger of black list was immanent but SBP neither make nor implement mechanism as that money laundering mechanism going to hurt more the corrupt and tax evader of country too oh yes that mechanism was very dangerous to them more than to groups who get foreign funding :) as its not only monitor incoming but outgoing flow as well and on that oint PPP,PMLN and every corrupt of Pakistan agreed and used their all pawns in bureaucracy,media and every where. They proved they are not going to do any good for Pakistan not going to allow others too so better that way that system is rotten and alternate is not going to happened until Army and other powerful institutes does not come on same page but sad to say they are also just watching afraid of doing anything

I have gone through every minutes of the FATF meeting and I have yet to find a single fault with it, of course there are political influences, but in reality there are very serious problems in our financial system and this is the collective problem of the incompetent and corrupt regulators like SBP/SECP/FBR. Every regulation they bring in (for over 14 year) me being a noob could right away find a loop hole in it, why cant these excessively paid as***oles do the same, you speak with them and you get the feeling these people are living in a lala land where they think they know every thing from adam to d-day. easier to criticize going to IMF but difficult to come up with a viable solution, oil discovery news flopped drilling is going to be stopped probably by 10th may, our iron brother screwed us for almost 8 years in sandak mining free gold/silver/copper and now the firm has defaulted. RekoDik is still far in the future, in salt range probably gold copper is being mined illegally, there are reserves of copper/gold when you go from Kohat to Bannu on the right side you will see red soil, bingo.

In our private thread you rightly pointed out that software export particularly cybersec is one area where we could start earning hefty money in less than a year, but is there a platform where people are thinking in that direction, any body's guess...
 
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Being a finance person through and through even I am worried now, problem is we can goddamn print all the PKR currency notes we need, but we cannot print dollars the mode of financial exchange. approx 27 billion dollar payments are due in the next 3 years means roughly 9 billion dollars a year, our CAD is net negative and frankly I don't see a way how to repay that money. N.S paying roughly 7 billion dollars may be, 1 year gone what about the next two and that damn debt trap the f**king Chinese have put us in through their OBOR/CPEC ($47 billion) there are no tariffs for Chinese vehicles traveling on these roads which will be made and paid by our hard earned money. Remember these are all commercial loans and carry substantial interest rates in dollar terms. The money coming in from chinese/arabs its all commercial loans and carry markup we have to pay them back. This precarious economic situation is double worry because CAD means we have nothing for defense procurement with enemies sitting along all borders we are in deep sh**. My suggestion would be to declare emergency as soon as IMF payment for this year is managed, get rid of this sick judicial system, get the money back from all corrupt I mean all including bureaucrats the saudi way without any foreign healthcare facilities/travel to any one. Unfortunately despite hating negativity I don't see a way out, increasing exports is the only way but what would we export? bangladesh in the last 10 years has become the 2nd largest exporter of shirts worldwide, vietnam which is still a shithole till late 90s had nothing now they are exporting 200 billion dollars worth of products. To improve exports it will have to be 10 years plan, identify the products/markets, start building the units, start training people required for that product thats the only way I see. IKs vision of getting the looted money back even if it goes through (although I have my serious doubts about it) doesnot solve the long term problem, how to increase the exports?

Honestly I am expecting that we should default let the international players take everything from us, may be a new start will put us on right track this time.



I have gone through every minutes of the FATF meeting and I have yet to find a single fault with it, of course there are political influences, but in reality there are very serious problems in our financial system and this is the collective problem of the incompetent and corrupt regulators like SBP/SECP/FBR. Every regulation they bring in (for over 14 year) me being a noob could right away find a loop hole in it, why cant these excessively paid as***oles do the same, you speak with them and you get the feeling these people are living in a lala land where they think they know every thing from adam to d-day. easier to criticize going to IMF but difficult to come up with a viable solution, oil discovery news flopped drilling is going to be stopped probably by 10th may, our iron brother screwed us for almost 8 years in sandak mining free gold/silver/copper and now the firm has defaulted. RekoDik is still far in the future, in salt range probably gold copper is being mined illegally, there are reserves of copper/gold when you go from Kohat to Bannu on the right side you will see red soil, bingo.

In our private thread you rightly pointed out that software export particularly cybersec is one area where we could start earning hefty money in less than a year, but is there a platform where people are thinking in that direction, any body's guess...



My Pak brother,

Thnaks for putting in your time and effort and composing a great post!

I have been saying the same for sometime now. Our economy is structured as a rentnier enterprise.

BD export bonanza is driven by Paks...so that money is in pocket of Paks... these Paks took their capital to BD escaping Karachi due to the Bahi and PPP gangwar.

Anyhow, the current software export is one area where we need to focus, as you rightly pointed out. Besides our software export is under invoiced.

In economic solutions I pointed out that we need dedicated software cities..because we need to focus on value added sectionn of software..more money!

NS focused more on infrastructure on high markup loans because there was bigger cut in them...through their frontmen... same as very expensive bonds that Isaq $ floated... that is going straight into the pockets of #CriminalEnterprise .

We are a country of 200+ mln souls... our economic model has to be $1000 export p.p. And that is minimum.

For this to happen we need a development model which is education and investment driven.

Given our public spending and actual infrastructure needs we can easily sustain 7,5 to 8,5 GDP growth for 30 years...but we must avoid some clear mistakes in this process.

A country which imports pears from abroad and is in debt explotion cann't achieve the above.

We need to cut imports completely apart from feul and what is aboslutely necessary.

Take mobile phones... $2 bln imports... why bloody cannt we manufacture them locally? Ban them. Have a joint venture and make them in Pak. Just one example!

Regarding your point of money recovery... I believe the LaWhore judicial system is completely compromised. We need to excercise special measures and have the checks signed. Period.

And these IPPs are making 40%... this needs to be addressed. Same method as above. This thievery is done by #CriminalEnterprise.

The Choice is Existensial!


Mangus
 
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With a clear mind and conscience, just think about it, how much more the PML Government would have been able to accomplish
For all PPP PMLN LOVERS: Pakistan has to return large part of the borrowed foreign debt amounting to 27 billion Dollars in two years time when it becomes due...

27 billion Dollars due in one go.
Kudos Ishaq Dar!!!


But wait...that's in 2 years time...what about now?

Other than the principle amount borrowed by PPP and PMLN, Just the due interest being paid at the moment is 7 billion daily X 30 X 12 and you can do the math.
Kudos Ishaq Dar!!!

What else can this government do in short term than borrow more to return just the interest? Despite that principle amount largely stands unpaid.
Kudos Ishaq Dar!!!

Here is a short history of what was the hay days of remarkable Ishaq Dar:


In June 2013, the public external debt including foreign exchange liabilities was only $53.4 billion.
The public debt-to-gross domestic product (GDP) ratio was touching 70% by the end of fiscal year 2018 in June. This ratio is far higher than the sustainable levels for any country, let alone Pakistan.
In June 2018, the public external debt stood at $95.1 billion Dollars. By the time PTI took over power, the debt was already hitting $97 billion mark.

Kudos Ishaq Dar !!! Let's bring him back!!!


The problem with anti PPP and anti PMLN awaam like myself is that when we criticise PTI for its mismanagement and inexperience (which was expected even before elections), those who have re-elected PPP and PMLN for more than 3 decades to bring Pakistan to its economic knees, that lot starts having a field day with childish idiosyncrasies like "inn say tu corrupt achchay thay"...not by a long shot.

It will be a miracle if Pakistan gets out of this economic quagmire anytime soon, no matter who is in power.

PPP and PMLN leaders are economic terrorists who drowned Pakistan in unprecedented debt. Period.
 
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And these IPPs are making 40%... this needs to be addressed. Same method as above. This thievery is done by #CriminalEnterprise.

Let me give some perspective on IPPs, they are given sovereign guarantees mean in case of any conflict those guarantees could be encashed without any problems, many have already done so.

Ok now as per our agreements with IPPs whatever is the declared capacity, we have to pay them whether they produce anything or not. If the payments are delayed (also called as circular debt) they are entitled to a compounded interest of 18% per annum in dollar terms. Interesting agreements don't you think?

My question is all these agreements involve corruption/commission in one way or the other have we tried to engage forensic accounting/financial firms to find those commission payments, once we do all we have to do is take those proof to international court of arbitration and these firms will be forced for settlements and new agreements. BTW these agreements are totally high treason against the country have we decided to hang those bureaucrats from law division, economic and finance division who ratified these agreements? another interesting question is why circular debt was created whom does it benefit, I know IPPs who have shut down their plants, still earning hefty amounts just because of that 18% interest on delayed payments, which IPP is owned by which business group directly/indirectly, why SECP vetted investment by fictitious holding companies.
 
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For all PPP PMLN LOVERS: Pakistan has to return large part of the borrowed foreign debt amounting to 27 billion Dollars in two years time when it becomes due...

27 billion Dollars due in one go.
Kudos Ishaq Dar!!!


But wait...that's in 2 years time...what about now?

Other than the principle amount borrowed by PPP and PMLN, Just the due interest being paid at the moment is 7 billion daily X 30 X 12 and you can do the math.
Kudos Ishaq Dar!!!

What else can this government do in short term than borrow more to return just the interest? Despite that principle amount largely stands unpaid.
Kudos Ishaq Dar!!!

Here is a short history of what was the hay days of remarkable Ishaq Dar:


In June 2013, the public external debt including foreign exchange liabilities was only $53.4 billion.
The public debt-to-gross domestic product (GDP) ratio was touching 70% by the end of fiscal year 2018 in June. This ratio is far higher than the sustainable levels for any country, let alone Pakistan.
In June 2018, the public external debt stood at $95.1 billion Dollars. By the time PTI took over power, the debt was already hitting $97 billion mark.

Kudos Ishaq Dar !!! Let's bring him back!!!


The problem with anti PPP and anti PMLN awaam like myself is that when we criticise PTI for its mismanagement and inexperience (which was expected even before elections), those who have re-elected PPP and PMLN for more than 3 decades to bring Pakistan to its economic knees, that lot starts having a field day with childish idiosyncrasies like "inn say tu corrupt achchay thay"...not by a long shot.

It will be a miracle if Pakistan gets out of this economic quagmire anytime soon, no matter who is in power.

PPP and PMLN leaders are economic terrorists who drowned Pakistan in unprecedented debt. Period.

Thanks for quoting me with a whole lot of gibberish! Had you not quoted me I would not even have bothered to post because of your lack of understanding of economics and the current situation.

27 Billion USD due in 2 years, piece of cake.

7 Billion (PKR I assume) everyday, not a sweat.

USD 97 Billion external debt, including USD 48-54 Billion of CPEC (which you again conveniently missed).

Debt to GDP.........our's is still better than the USA & Japan (top 2 economies of the world).

The major difference, the killer factor, is that the economy of both Japan and the USA, along with other countries, is in better, experienced hands.
 
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Fact is taking loans is not going to help these idiots have one plan loot 5 years as much what left with pak than runaway these idiots are worst than zardari
 
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Thanks for quoting me with a whole lot of gibberish! Had you not quoted me I would not even have bothered to post because of your lack of understanding of economics and the current situation.

27 Billion USD due in 2 years, piece of cake.

7 Billion (PKR I assume) everyday, not a sweat.

USD 97 Billion external debt, including USD 48-54 Billion of CPEC (which you again conveniently missed).

Debt to GDP.........our's is still better than the USA & Japan (top 2 economies of the world).

The major difference, the killer factor, is that the economy of both Japan and the USA, along with other countries, is in better, experienced hands.
Your knowledge of economy is indeed beyond the figures of SBP, who am I to challenge you dear.

It was such a piece of cake that Ishaq Dar didn't even dare think about paying it but kept on increasing its size so that he could claim..."If bread is expensive then the poor should eat Cake".

I do agree with the notion though, only an idiot could compare Pakistan's economy with USA and Japan.
 
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