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Falcon V Fulcrum Turkey Shoot

Chogy is a true American; he will never be caught dead flying non-American

i'll gladly accept a pilot's ''approval'' of the F-16 --it's advanced yet responsive and more forgiving handling...better situational awareness (thanks to a high seating position and nearly 360 degree view from the canopy)

also more reliable and slightly less maintenance intensive


like i said earlier, when that fulcrum is painted then from that point onwards the only danger for F-16 is to make sure flying metal and debris don't go into jet intake
 
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yes because IAF mig29s were armed with BVR and our f16s werent armed with BVR at that time.
BVR = BEYOND VISUAL RANGE missiles


Thats what I said.. There is always a reason for an action.. At that time, the planes IAF was fielding in the theater were superior to Pakistani Planes and hence the F16 bugged out as they could not go toe to toe to BVR equipped 29's
 
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why not? I would respect his opinion wouldnt you?

The question is not about respect.Its more about what you are accustomed with.You will have more confidence over what you can use best,understand the most,isnt it?
Say,you are a guitarist,you will choose the old Stratocaster that you are habituated to use over the brand new Les Paul for a performance even though the later is supposed to be good as well.

Probably the airforce pilots of East Germany who later became a part of the German air force after the fall of the Berlin wall,would be the best pilots to ask this question.They had pretty good experience with Mig-29 and with F-16 as well.
 
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why not? I would respect his opinion wouldnt you?

True, but thats like asking a Brit, whether he would prefer driving on the right side of the road or left, and taking that answer in an argument on which of the 2 is better..

btw, arent the results from the exercise to which the OP video belongs to, must be fairly public.. Wouldnt that be a better measure of how these planes fared against each other rather than convoluted logics of folks like WJ
 
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True, but thats like asking a Brit, whether he would prefer driving on the right side of the road or left, and taking that answer in an argument on which of the 2 is better..

btw, arent the results from the exercise to which the OP video belongs to, must be fairly public.. Wouldnt that be a better measure of how these planes fared against each other rather than convoluted logics of folks like WJ

Good idea.. and there are other reports of western jets going up against the Fulcrum in mock dogfights.. all available on the internet for those interested in posting a counterpoint.
 
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Windjammer you are not jamming wind but mind. when did MKI locked by F-16.i think Indian ministry of defence sended our MKI for your target practice right. So what your Radars doing When MKI is flying over Lahore sky.

No offence but what are you trying to say. ??!!

have you seen MKI anytime. i wish you won't get that chance bro. please give some credit to MKI.

On the contrary, I have seen the Typhoon and F-22 performing displays, and I don't think I have discredited the MKI in any way.
 
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If an ordinary chopper flown accidentally In *** it became a huge news, But when an Attacking machine SU-30mki flown in Lahore air space why F-16 didn't forced it to ground. How PAF allowed combat jet into an MAJOR city air space.

After how many years did people hear of the Mig-25 overflights by the IAF over Pakistani installations??
What photographic proof exists of it.
What proof is there of the lock-on incident by the Mig-29's during Kargil? apart from hearsay?
After all.. the man credited for telling the story has many dubious claims from his performance in the 65 and 71 wars..

It is just a matter of how much of the fog of war are you willing to walk into ..

How do people believe all those ridiculous stories of pilots stealing opponents planes in WWII..
how many near intercepts were carried on U-2 and Sr-71 aircraft during the cold war?
How many engagements occurred between TuAF and HAF pilots.. that were never mentioned?

That is the fog of war...
It was a tense time.. and the incident may or may not have occurred.. and perhaps .. just as the chopper incident was quickly played down and resolved.. perhaps this incident was not mentioned for the sake of keeping the temperature down.
We will never know.. unless some years down the road an officer talks about it or mentions it.
 
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There have been zero engagements between MKIs and F-16s in a hostile situation, to those who claim that either have locked on. Except for wargames, it has happened nowhere and none of the articles describing these games even mentioned "locked on" by either.

The only lock that was anywhere close was the last conflict in 1999 when MiG-29s were newly BVR equipped and they got a reading with F-16s but neither shot anything at each other.
 
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After how many years did people hear of the Mig-25 overflights by the IAF over Pakistani installations??
What photographic proof exists of it.
What proof is there of the lock-on incident by the Mig-29's during Kargil? apart from hearsay?
After all.. the man credited for telling the story has many dubious claims from his performance in the 65 and 71 wars..

It is just a matter of how much of the fog of war are you willing to walk into ..

How do people believe all those ridiculous stories of pilots stealing opponents planes in WWII..
how many near intercepts were carried on U-2 and Sr-71 aircraft during the cold war?
How many engagements occurred between TuAF and HAF pilots.. that were never mentioned?

That is the fog of war...
It was a tense time.. and the incident may or may not have occurred.. and perhaps .. just as the chopper incident was quickly played down and resolved.. perhaps this incident was not mentioned for the sake of keeping the temperature down.
We will never know.. unless some years down the road an officer talks about it or mentions it.


i asked a straight question. yet he didn't answer. Kargil was an conflict, it's a war theater we will get less info about it because MEDIA restricted to cover. but what exactly windjammer trying to say. how he got to know about SU-30mki locked by F-16. i am asking please provide any info about it. my question is WHY PAF didn't shot down SU-30mki when it intruded into LAHORE city. MEDIA can cover that intrusion.
 
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i asked a straight question. yet he didn't answer. Kargil was an conflict, it's a war theater we will get less info about it because MEDIA restricted to cover. but what exactly windjammer trying to say. how he got to know about SU-30mki locked by F-16. i am asking please provide any info about it. my question is WHY PAF didn't shot down SU-30mki when it intruded into LAHORE city. MEDIA can cover that intrusion.

Actually the media did.
See if you can find news reports pertaining to that time.
The lock on , type of aircraft is best left unsaid as it will only open a pandora's box that I know too well of.
Why the PAF did not shoot down..
perhaps ROE's were such?
 
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Adding relavent data to the question of mig-experience by western pilots.From the link I posted before.

In April 1991, LtGen. Jörg Kuebart, became the Chief of Staff of the new post-Cold War consolidated German Air Force (Luftwaffe) after serving two years as the Deputy Commander and Chief AAFCE. His initial description of the MiG-29 was that it was "...a good fighter airplane, and it is relatively easy to maintain. But it carries one very big disadvantage - depending upon the Soviets for industrial support. At present our flying rate is going down, because we lack spare parts. We have been involved in extensive talks with the Soviets, but as of today I haven't received any spare parts (Armed Forces Journal International, Dec91, pg 49)."

"We intend to make only minimum modifications necessary to be able to fly the aircraft safely in Western air space....... TACAN, IFF, and a second emergency horizon. In addition, the instruments and panels must be inscribed in English."

Chief Mikoyan Designer Rotislav Belyakov, and his deputy, Mikhail Waldenberg, always tried to out do each other on the marketing circuit with the "tactical" exploits of the MiG-29. We have to examine this because MAPO has deliberately mislead potential customers with "data" they say was officially generated by their MiG-29's serving with the German "Luftwaffe" in NATO. Data that is sometimes not there or taken far out of context.

After the 1994 Farnborough Air Show there was one such description of how the MiG-29 was performing in the new Germany. Belyakov and Waldenberg gave Luftwaffe MiG-29's credit for winning "BVR duels" against USAF F-15's and F-16's despite their use of ECM. They praised the MiG-29's well maintained radar, powerful transmitter, and "long range target detection capability" with a very small radar cross section, high ECCM hardening, and more capable BVR missiles. They did admit, however, that the MiG-29 reaches a 9G capability only after the fuel volume is internal. It was also assumed, by them in their calculations, that the Sparrow missile did not get a radar semi-active midcourse update against a maneuvering target, which is wrong. In reality, the German Air Force MiG-29 experience against other NATO aircraft has been only allowed in deliberately controlled training situations, more to educate pilots then to assess superiority. The Luftwaffe feels caught between intense political pressure by the Russians to validate the MiG-29 in a NATO environment, as well as the natural desire by the NATO pilots to "fight" the Fulcrum flown by better trained pilots.

Initially the newly assimilated East German MiG-29 Wing (JG.3 changed later to JG.73), at Preschen still manned by its original cadre, proved unsatisfactory according to NATO standards, in both airmanship and tactical know-how. Only after existing Luftwaffe F-4, Tornado, and F-15 exchange pilots re-built the squadron, did a more realistic use of the MiG-29 occur.

To say that the communist trained East Germans were innovatively hampered by their own dielectric approach to training and operationally shackled by Russian authority as to "when" and "how much" to fly, would be a gross understatement. NATO pilots were quite amazed and confused over the fact that most of these East German "elite" pilots appeared not "care" about flying and had little interest in doing anything innovative with their training once they did get a chance to fly.

At the NATO F-16 Fighter Weapons Instructor's (FWIT-89) symposium, with a select gathering of Instructor Pilots (IP's), not just from NATO, but all over the world, the first face-to-face discussions were made with the Commander and tactical flight leaders of the Preschen Wing. The results were heart-breaking for those US & European trained pilots who sacrificed so much to stay on the razor's edge, although it was a relief to realize that clearly the Western approach to training was far superior. The average NATO pilot in that room had a far greater comprehension of the MiG-29's capabilities than did any of the MiG pilot's themselves. Almost all of the visitors spoke German and more than half Russian. There were no communication gaps, it was a straight forward pilot-to-pilot talk. The results were simple, the MiG pilot's perceived their flying tasks as a second or third priority to their personal agendas, which were first and foremost.

This must have impressed the Luftwaffe enough to be concerned about their security reliability. Soon after that, the decision was made to release almost all of the ex-East German pilots from the service and the units were re-organized or disbanded. But once the political decision was made to keep the MiG-29's in the German Air Force, the pressure from the Russian military and aerospace industry became intense as they tried to find any data that would support their claims of parallel or better suitability of the MiG-29 to NATO aircraft. In fact, what they are trying to do, was to take western experience with the MiG-29 and leverage it in the export marketplace. Fortunately, but not surprisingly, it has not been believed.
 
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More from the same.

The MiG-29 Combat Legacy:

If we examine the actual combat performance of the MiG-29, the data shows a more subdued track record despite zealous reports from MAPO-MiG. During the Gulf War, the only enemy fighter to be shot down by an Iraqi MiG-29 was another Iraqi fighter. A MiG-23 who happened to be the guy's wingman and unfortunately the MiG-29 pilot hit the ground after killing it. Meanwhile the USAF downed 4 x MiG-29's during the war (all with AIM-7 Sparrow's) and a fifth one crashed as a result of a maneuvering suicide during an engagement with an F-15. The F-15's wingman downed a MiG-29 with an AIM-7. Seven more MiG-29's were destroyed by air-to-ground munitions or coalition ground forces and four defected to Iran. After the Gulf War, during the Northern Watch patrols over northern Iraq, a USAF F-16 downed a MiG-29 with an AMRAAM (AIM-120) missile.

In other theaters, the new Federal Yugoslav Air Force (Serbia proper), designated the "RViPVO" (Ratno Vazduhoplovstovo i Protivvazdushna Odbrana), on 08 Oct 91, attacked Croatian's Presidential Palace in Zagreb with 2 x MiG-29's delivering 57mm air-to-ground rockets. This was the first report of MiG-29's being used in the air-to-ground role since fighting began against Slovenia in June 1991. Soon after that, one MiG-29 was lost to ground fire. The RViPVO assembled their MiG-29 and MiG-21 bis (Fishbed K) units at Batajnica Air Base and they represent Serbia's best air defense resources. The MiG-29's are assigned to one squadron (the 130th LAE) and are locally designated type L-18 and NL-18 aircraft. They are kept in reserve to protect the leadership in Belgrade from NATO PGM equipped aircraft.

Moldova leased 12 of its 30 x MiG-29's with pilots and maintenance crews, some Iraqi, to help South Yeman fight its civil war. Seven were shot down or destroyed on the ground with the remaining five rendered unserviceable.

Likewise, Cuban MiG-29's have also become virtually unserviceable due to spares shortages. Recent estimates note that only three Cuban Fulcrums are still operational. They did however, get one airborne in early March to shoot down two Cessna Skymasters off the coast of Cuba.

So at least 22 x MiG-29's have been downed or destroyed in combat having flown only a couple hundred missions. The only MiG-29 air-to-air victory was a fratricide and at least two pilots killed themselves maneuvering the aircraft at low altitude which could be partially attributed to the way the aircraft 's weapon system is mechanized and its "un-friendly" cockpit that features a heads-down gyro reference. Also, over the years three MiG-29's have been lost in accidents at Air Shows in France and England.

It is most interesting that MIG-MAPO officially denies any combat activity or losses with the MiG-29. In fact they boldly state that the Coalition victory was made possible because the Iraqi MiG-29's did not have wide-scale participation. The source noted by MAPO was the "Krasnaya Zvezda" newspaper article of 18Aug95. The MAPO-MiG literature states:

"MiG-29's have not participated in real combat operations. Even the several dozens of MiG-29's placed in service in the Iraqi Air Force were ferried, during the Desert Storm operation, to Iran in 1991. But the modeling of various outcomes of the Gulf War, developed by experts, allowed them to come to the conclusion that the non-participation of MiG-29's in wide-scale combat actions on the Iraqi side was one of the main reasons for a quick and comparatively easy victory of the multinational armed forces of the Coalition."
 
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After how many years did people hear of the Mig-25 overflights by the IAF over Pakistani installations??
What photographic proof exists of it.
What proof is there of the lock-on incident by the Mig-29's during Kargil? apart from hearsay?
After all.. the man credited for telling the story has many dubious claims from his performance in the 65 and 71 wars..

It is just a matter of how much of the fog of war are you willing to walk into ..

How do people believe all those ridiculous stories of pilots stealing opponents planes in WWII..
how many near intercepts were carried on U-2 and Sr-71 aircraft during the cold war?
How many engagements occurred between TuAF and HAF pilots.. that were never mentioned?

That is the fog of war...
It was a tense time.. and the incident may or may not have occurred.. and perhaps .. just as the chopper incident was quickly played down and resolved.. perhaps this incident was not mentioned for the sake of keeping the temperature down.
We will never know.. unless some years down the road an officer talks about it or mentions it.



Actually the media did.
See if you can find news reports pertaining to that time.
The lock on , type of aircraft is best left unsaid as it will only open a pandora's box that I know too well of.
Why the PAF did not shoot down..
perhaps ROE's were such?

AWESOME....In fact, it's bloody mind blowing !!!
The so sweet sleeping ***** cat is a God damn one growling Tiger folks.. !!!
 
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AWESOME....In fact, it's bloody mind blowing !!!
The so sweet sleeping ***** cat is a God damn one growling Tiger folks.. !!!


Speaking of the Rules of Engagement reminds me of the time when the Americans were keenly checking the video footage of the F-16s that engaged the Communist fighter jets and in one instance there was a positive lock on but the PAF pilot didn’t fire the missile, when asked he said that he wasn’t sure if the debris of the plane would fall in Pakistan or across the border? The ROE dictated that all engagements were to ensure that the enemy planes must fall in Pakistan so that the Soviets couldn’t make a claim of an unprovoked attack.
The American realised that and appreciated the judgement of the PAF pilot saying that there was a possibility in that instance that the fleeing communist plane would have crashed across the border on the Afghan side.
 
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i didn't find any credible source. i don't like to talk blindly, no wonder if that kind of statement made by Indian you people will jump to ask Source. it smelling stupid speculation only. IF an combat jet like SU-30mki intruded into Pakistani city it will be breaking news. When it happened.

@SANTRO: Same i will say MKI chased F-16 to Lahore,when it intruded Indian land. will you accept it with out any source.
 
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