Failed coup general Hafter is looking for an exit after heavily defeated in southern Tripoli.
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Ansu fati
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Let’s be honest and have good discussion
About 60% of libyans live in gna-held areas
Yes you are right about the gas but all the money go through tripoli institutions so I don’t think that haftar has the edge
He has declared at least 10 times zero hour and failed so far if anyone should be ashamed then that should be haftar and his foreign backers
Regarding syria well turks and sna control 20% of syria now i will give you an exclusive info that percentage will rise in the coming weeks with the addition of manbij and ayn el arab(not sure about tel rifat for now)
ArabianEmpires&Caliphates
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Who cares about the number of people living in x or y area of Libya? 99.9% of all locals have no say anyway and just want security and basic services. Something that Haftar controlled areas of Libya enjoy far more.
Given the advancements of Haftar in recent months/years, the population split is more 50/50 if anything.
20% ? More like 3% or so in the form of that tiny area near Iskenderun/Hatay.
The reality is that GNA is never going to control even half of Libya and I highly doubt that the GNA or Haftar have any future in Libya in 10 years time.
Ansu fati
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Idlib is not under direct turkish control yet but de facto we can say that it is since there are at least 10K turkish soldiers plus fsa/sna is finally back in idlib too hts and other gcc backed terror groups will be sent to hell pretty soon either by turkish operation or by russian operation in southern idlib worst scenario for them if they face joint attack from Turkey and Russia you forgot also ras al ayn and tal abyad part I seriously think you should be thankful to Turkey for all they are doing for syrians (of course i know these operations are done primarily for turkish security interest but definitely these same ops are doing great benefit for syrians too)Who cares about the number of people living in x or y area of Libya? 99.9% of all locals have no say anyway and just want security and basic services. Something that Haftar controlled areas of Libya enjoy far more.
Given the advancements of Haftar in recent months/years, the population split is more 50/50 if anything.
20% ? More like 3% or so in the form of that tiny area near Iskenderun/Hatay.
The reality is that GNA is never going to control even half of Libya and I highly doubt that the GNA or Haftar have any future in Libya in 10 years time.
I am not a fan of gna they are corrupt and bad choice for libyans but they are the lesser evil than haftar right now lots of libyan families were destroyed when they started the struggle against gaddafi do you really think haftar can rule just like that?!? Even if he captures tripoli there won’t be peace neither for him nor for those who think that by installing dictator everything will be solved
Haftar did lots of war crime against civilian population people in tripoli don’t like very much gna but they despise haftar and his foreign backers sooner or later if he isn’t removed we will see another civil war
Transition from medieval kingdom towards modern democratic state must happen that’s the will of arab people
It’s better for arab royal family to accept this and let ordinary arab people in peace otherwise they will be brought down sooner or later unfortunately we will see unnecessary bloodshed but the result will be just like i said this is objective fact when you see how people are resisting throughout all these years in various arab states
I am looking forward to your reply
ArabianEmpires&Caliphates
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Idlib is not under direct turkish control yet but de facto we can say that it is since there are at least 10K turkish soldiers plus fsa/sna is finally back in idlib too hts and other gcc backed terror groups will be sent to hell pretty soon either by turkish operation or by russian operation in southern idlib worst scenario for them if they face joint attack from Turkey and Russia you forgot also ras al ayn and tal abyad part I seriously think you should be thankful to Turkey for all they are doing for syrians (of course i know these operations are done primarily for turkish security interest but definitely these same ops are doing great benefit for syrians too)
I am not a fan of gna they are corrupt and bad choice for libyans but they are the lesser evil than haftar right now lots of libyan families were destroyed when they started the struggle against gaddafi do you really think haftar can rule just like that?!? Even if he captures tripoli there won’t be peace neither for him nor for those who think that by installing dictator everything will be solved
Haftar did lots of war crime against civilian population people in tripoli don’t like very much gna but they despise haftar and his foreign backers sooner or later if he isn’t removed we will see another civil war
Transition from medieval kingdom towards modern democratic state must happen that’s the will of arab people
It’s better for arab royal family to accept this and let ordinary arab people in peace otherwise they will be brought down sooner or later unfortunately we will see unnecessary bloodshed but the result will be just like i said this is objective fact when you see how people are resisting throughout all these years in various arab states
I am looking forward to your reply
Are you not the same individual that keeps barking about HTS being some imaginary KSA proxy LOL, despite KSA leaving the Syria fiasco and money wasting machine over 5 years ago? Now you are suddenly admitting that Idlib is a Turkish proxy? OK. And please, this proxy/terrorist nonsense is a joke, nobody has been worse in Syria than Turkey and Iran. You are literally sending Syrians (Turkmens) to Libya to fight for you against LNA on the orders of Erdogan. Come on.
Fact of the matter is that Turkish proxies control less than 3% of Syria if that can even do it and that eventually all of Syria, expect of the Golan Heights, which the pathetic Al-Assad regime lost, will return under 1 joint leadership based in Damascus whether Al-Assad or another Syrian faction.
Are you joking? It is like thanking the arsonist (or one of them) for trying to extinguish the fire he himself helped start (partially at least).
Similar to KSA's involvement in Yemen, Yemeni refugees in KSA can be expected and any Saudi Arabian being shocked about this is an idiot. Similarly a Turk not expecting Syrian refugees after his government started meddling in that country.
Haftar is old, he is not going to rule very long and you are ignorant about Libyan matters if you think the huge Libyan faction (LNA) can just be reduced to 1 single general, lol. In Libya it is all about the tribe, clan and province. It is a fight for power among tribes of Western and Eastern Libya and everyone else is trying to eat the scrubs and left overs. The Libyan monarchy was dominated by Libyan tribes from the East. Gaddafi had most of his support in the West, since he was from Western Libya (Sirte). Which explains why Eastern Libya fell as the first part of Libya during the uprising against Gaddafi.
Nobody is a saint in this civil war, pretending otherwise is either being ignorant or trying to create an agenda. I am neither pro GNA or Haftar but I know that foreign influence in every Arab country (especially if used to exploit) is a bad thing.
Just a friendly advice, let us 500 million Arabs and 20 + Arab countries deal with our own matters. Foreigners have an extremely bad track record (for them) when meddling and outside meddling is not going to help anything for Arabs whether it is Turkish, Iranian (those two are only opportunists as they have no real influence in the Arab world) or when the real meddlers interact (USA and Russia) and their child (Israel in Palestine and Golan Heights) or Martians meddling. Every educated Arab understands this.
For instance, with all due respect, I have no doubt that you do not give a crap about Arabs, being a Macedonian Turk or half Macedonian Turk (probably an descendant of local Slavs/Balkan people who adopted Ottoman identity after the Ottoman conquest of Balkans and the frequent use of soldiers from that region, no offense). It would be different if you were a Turkish Arab or a Turk/Kurd living in areas in Turkey heavily exposed to Arabs. What you are interested in is some pro-Turkish regime, preferably anti-Arab (against other Arab states neighboring Arab states like Egypt and others), never going to happen though (the anti-Arab fantasy, like proven in every Arab country so far whether it is the Iranians or others trying) and as a potential market.
That is fair enough and what all nation states with a certain power/influence outside of their borders are trying to do (KSA is no different when we build solar and wind infrastructure in say Uzbekistan worth 2.5 billion USD) but at least we are not taking sides in some ongoing civil war in said country or following the regime line (Erdogan) blindly just because it apparently "benefits" Turkey. I guess the same talk occurred in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Sudan etc. before Erdogan's and Qatar's MB project failed spectacularly. The only benefit of that for Turkey and Turks was political and economic hostility and one political blunder after the other coupled with economic crisis and an extremely erratic foreign policy. Erdogan's version for "democracy" in the Arab world is some pro-Turkish MB rule everywhere. Not going to happen, I am afraid.
Turks should find a better leadership before worrying about Arabs. The same can be said about Arabs the other way around. Plenty of trash in the region to dispose of.
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Ansu fati
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If you are interested about my background i will tell you
I am descendant of turkish family that was settled from anatolia to balkans 4-5 centuries ago my grandfather wanted to go return during 20th century but failed and decided to stay in what is known today as Macedonia
Trust me i have no problem with syrian refugees fleeing from war because i know how bosnians(muslims) suffered during serbian genocide campaign
The problem with syrians is that most of them relocated from southern Turkey(conservative religious) to the western part( secular nationalistic) of the country
So generally more conservative turks didn’t have so much problem until economy worsened in the last two years now every turk no matter ideology are against syrians but even bigger problem is that syrian refugees don’t show any effort to integrate
In a country that is known by its nationalistic pride like Turkey such behavior won’t be tolerated anymore
Any person who migrates to another country has duty integrate with the host population and eventually become part of it(don’t mix two important but different terms integration and assimilation) for example there are 1 milion turkish arabs who are there long before syrians arrived but they are true turkish nationalists(they still know arabic local customs..etc this example shows us exactly difference between integration and assimilation) hatay is literally one of the most known bastions of turkish nationalism
Turkish origin people in libya also successfully integrated with arab population there i got you 2 successful integration processes if syrians want to integrate in the same way they are free to stay
There are certain targets set to be done and all key power centers(both pro or anti erdogan) in Turkey agree about that(northern syria northern iraq libya east mediterranean) it’s something called national interest and every ruling party in the future will follow it(in other news don’t expect significant change if another man succeeds erdogan the path/line will be more or less the same)
I am not defender of MB you can execute all of them if you want but it’s hypocritical to say MB are extremists when current religious system in all gcc states are at least 10x time more stricter/extreme
You say KSA hasn’t taken any side in a civil war but you know that’s not true
Remember the good old days when saudis emiratis turks and qataris were on the same side supporting syrian rebels(unfortunately later stupid brainwashed jihadist ruined the revolution) against assad so please be more honest next time the real reason why SA and UAE turned against Turkey was the fear of democratic transition from kingdom to modern nation state after they saw the revolution success they did 360 degree turn and now they are backing dictator like haftar/sisi who will be much easier to control
It’s true that arabs should decide for their own future but arab royal families aren’t giving them a chance to do it so my prediction based on what happened and is happening today there will be another big uprising or in the worst case if MBS implements everything he promised in vision2030 there will be powerful liberal pro western economic elite that will press for political change of saudi entire system and here you have potential conflict for power between the old and the new elite
It’s fact that Turkey is looking for its own alliance with states that share/have similar interests/ideology but to say that UAE or SA are just blind observers is one big lie
I think there’s no need of making a list of all interventions from 2011-present made by SA/UAE you already know this
ArabianEmpires&Caliphates
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So it is fair to say, by now, that you are much more Macedonian (Slavic or of local/native Balkan stock) than anything remotely Anatolian and I probably imagine that your family has been intermarrying with locals for centuries/generations as well. That might explain your strong nationalism, it reminds me of ultranationalist among the Arab diaspora.
I am sure that you know, as proven by every DNA test out there, that 95% of modern-day Turks (Anatolians or should we say citizens of Turkey) are a mixture of Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Arabs, Persians, Circassians, Bosnians, Albanians (people of the Balkans), Georgians, Assyrians etc.
I always found it extremely strange, after the emergence of Pasha Kemal Mustafa, the turn that Turkish nationalism took and how it has been inspired by some ridiculous ethnic claims of modern-day Turks being some pure Turkic/Mongolian race. It must be ridiculous living such a lie, it frankly equals to Somalians acting more Arab than Arabs, due to groups of Arabs once settling in Somalia etc.
I find it thus quite hilarious to see a few of the anti-Arab Turkish trolls on PDF hating a part of themselves, lol, as proven by DNA and that is notwithstanding the large Arab influence of Turkey historically or the fact that the native Turkish Arab community predates the Turkic arrivals and has had a big influence on Turkey given the numbers. Probably many more have been assimilated into Turks throughout the years like other minorities.
I agree with your integration comments completely but for how long have those Syrian refugees been in Turkey and does anyone know whether they would prefer to be in Europe (probably) or whether they plan to stay in Turkey forever or whether they would return to Syria immediately if Al-Assad was toppled?
Anyway the point was that Turkey has been one of the most active participants in Syria, Turkey has the longest border with Syria of any country, Turkey lies on the route to Europe (the easiest at least, in theory Syrian refugees could somehow travel to Morocco and from there Europe but we all know only a tiny minority do that for good reason) so not expecting refugees and being agree is an oxymoron.
Remember the Turkish populations who stayed in the Arab world (mostly having intermarried with locals for centuries so fully absorbed) did it out of their own free will. You cannot compare it to the Syrian example.
Turkey like any nation state in the region with ambitions will pursue such policies but those policies will be met with reactions from other players in the region. Similar to how it happens the other way around.
I never wrote that KSA was not involved in Syria, lol, that would be ridiculous, but our involvement practically ended the second the Yemen war began which is much more important for the security of KSA. I have described this involvement in detail and as a whole it is a consequence of Arab political failure and unity (among the rulers) to have one Arab foreign policy in regards to Syria. Instead we had divisions such as Qatar wanting a MB rule alongside Turkey (Erdogan), KSA wanting anything else than a pro-Mullah regime, Egypt wanting a pro-Arab military regime (similar to Jordan) and then you had the disunity among the Syrians and militants gaining influence on the ground and later ISIS and others. Actually this was not only an Arab failure, Western/US/Turkish/other opposition groups also failed to create a joint front for whatever reasons. Point here is that when it comes to proxies, in terms of regional states, KSA is behind both Turkey and Iran and that has been the case for many years now. Initially it was different but the inactivity of the anti-Al-Assad coalition allowed the Russians to make their big push and they changed the status quo. However I don't think that the Al-Assad regime has a long-term future.
Good that you at least agree that Arabs should solve their own challenges like that of any other people and that outside meddling is not helpful.
As for ideology ruling, republic, monarchy, sect, the Arab world has it all for good and bad. Not all republics in the Arab world are bad, for instance Tunisia is a good example, just like not all monarchies are bad. It depends on the rulers, system in place and what the rulers have done for the people and country. For instance most people in the GCC, although the rulers are not perfect, nobody is, are mostly very content with the status quo and nobody can blame us given the stability and wealth we have enjoyed contrary to most other oil/gas producing nations in the world from Central Asia, Venezuela to other Arab states/Muslim states to African ones etc. Or even Russia where live standards are much lower despite Russia flooding with oil, gas and minerals as well.
As for MB, actually most so-called extremism in the GCC (that is no longer the case) is the work of MB teachers from Egypt and Syria who mixed Hanbali orthodoxy (which was mostly apolitical and strictly clerical) with MB politics which created a toxic minority of movements and views. This occurred during the era of King Faisal when he welcomed exiled MB members from Arab countries, often intellectuals, teachers, clerics, who were escaping secular Arab nationalist governments allied to the USSR (Syria, South Yemen and Egypt back then, Iraq to a smaller degree).
Also the vast majority of Saudi Arabians are not Hanbalis but we belong to the Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanafi schools and for the Shia the Twelver, Ismaili and Zaydi schools. ALL of those schools are NATIVE to our lands as is Sunni, Sufism and Shia Islam btw. Among those you have strong traditional Sufi traditions in Hijaz. Hanbalism is mostly prevalent in Najd and it is 1 of the mainstream Sunni madahib. Just a more conservative madahib by large but there is nothing wrong with that at all. It is a very logical madahib, a few mostly dead clerics who took it too far post the MB fusion, is not going to change this. BTW, I am of a Shafi'i background myself but most Muslims can't distinguish those madahib from each other unless they are scholars themselves.
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Ansu fati
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I haven’t done dna tests your statement is one of many possible options yet it’s just a claim scientific unproven
You are right about MB but we should blame arab rulers why they allowed their teaching this is another topic and should be discussed right now because we are already derailing the topic too much
It’s funny to hear from an arab or from iranian member about turkish genes study i think his name was armagedon or something like that
Of course turks are mixed with various today knowm ethnic groups since there are lots of states established by turkish tribes around the world during history
There are literally folk songs from balkan christians how a turk took whenever he wanted slavic girl also there is the devshirme situation I guess also there were a lot of mixing between turks and arabs/persians in the border region as you know turks when conquered anatolia they came from the east
so lots of modern day kurds have predominantly turkmen ancestry i can even say most of the kurds in south east are actually former armenians and turkmens
I don’t have problem with having diversity in my dna if there’s a girl i truly love certainly won’t care about her skin race or religion
There’s no pure nation that’s a fact that everyone with a brain acknowledges so I wonder what would you say about the dna of modern day arabs
For example jordanian royal family was the true dna succesor of the Prophet not anymore if you ask me but now king abdulla or his relatives they have nothing to do with a standard arab look
There are also big variations in almost all arab states especially iraq lebanon and syria to my surprise even in palestine
It’s absurd to say deny turks the right of anatolia while the term turk was used long time ago by european christians to say bad words about someone who was muslim from anatolia
I thank you for the extensive info about the background of saudi society definitely will help me in the future when I analyze developments in the ME(GCC)
My personal opinion is that all arab state eventually should follow Tunisia example a state that has really respectable independent policy willing to work with everyone as long as tunisian interests are served plus they usually don’t want to be part of any power games which is something that should be appreciated
Regarding Syria i will need to write too much but will say shortly if there’s anyone who truly deserves to be blamed that’s assad and the syrian opposition which was unable to eliminate jihadist wing in the revolution all other actors have secondary blame if syrians can’t get to work together finding long lasting solution I don’t think we should expect this from foreign countries who have their own interests in Syria
Philip the Arab
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Lol Syrians are shitty operaters of SAMs and also UAE uses American systems bud that your systems aren't geared towards.
UAE better watches her own a*s, Qatar has that f*cking drone as well
Also, your UAVs mean nothing with good jammers used previously in Libya by Wagner group that took down multiple Bayraktars.
bsruzm
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You all are the same
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Philip the Arab
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Dis nig mentally retarded.You all are the same
bsruzm
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No, I am stating a fact. It doesn't matter Assad, Haftar, MbS, Sisi or MbZ
Saddam Hussein
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No, I am stating a fact. It doesn't matter Assad, Haftar, MbS, Sisi or MbZ
All the above are to be deemed far superior to the semi-Arabized mountain hiker, until the latter achieves full-Arabization.
You will be Arabized one day.
Oublious
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They are Arabs why are they now not good? When we humilate our enemies that will happen to you. Manner of time we will bring our jammers and show your puppet dictator what army means, nobody can save haftar. Hawk batteries and Pantsir will not help you
....
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bsruzm
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I survived some attempts, don't worry
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