F-22P question

[hj786]

On this world affairs board thread:
Sino Pakistan Military Relations. - Page 6
Post 80 shows some nice pictures of F-22P ship 252 being fitted out. (you need to be registered to see pictures)

Then in the next post a picture of another ship that appears similar in size to F-22P is shown, but its design is very different - it looks far more stealthy and advanced. The poster asks why PN did not go for this more modern/stealthy-looking ship. Can anybody identify this ship and say why PN has not chosen it over F-22P?
I hope after the current F-22P order is finished, PN will go for something more like this rather than more F-22P. To me, the F-22P design looks dated in comparison with this ship.

 

[Quwa]

F-22P is more of a tactical stopgap and practise to build larger warships domestically. The PN will also procure the Turkish MILGEM, possibly German MEKO and a range of other contemporary vessels over and beyond the next decade.

 

[Tomahawk]

F-22P is more of a tactical stopgap and practise to build larger warships domestically. The PN will also procure the Turkish MILGEM, possibly German MEKO and a range of other contemporary vessels over and beyond the next decade.

Very much valid point...Sooner or later PN needs to build the surface warships domestically, help/assistance can be taken from chinese designs as we all know china is making rapid progress in surface warship designs. I hope we could benefit from this.
In my opinion once we will build the fourth ship of F-22P series locally, we will gain a lot from this experience, which should be utilize in building the larger ships domestically.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

F-22P is more of a tactical stopgap and practise to build larger warships domestically. The PN will also procure the Turkish MILGEM, possibly German MEKO and a range of other contemporary vessels over and beyond the next decade.

would you stop carrying around same absurd opinion about F-22P in every thread possible! PN is not dumb enough to waist 700+ million dollars to full fill "tactical stopgaps" and retire fleet that it just proquired in 10-15 years! we have OHP for that porpose which apparetnly cost 60 million dollars which btw is a "tactical stopgap" and is plan to stay till 2020+. MEKO has no chance in PN as they are in love with Fremm. thats why i said did anyone catch PTV talk show about PN modernization? it covered all that and they were very positive about its capabilities even in the future as it has room for upgradtion.

 

[Quwa]

would you stop carrying around same absurd opinion about F-22P in every thread possible! PN is not dumb enough to waist 700+ million dollars to full fill "tactical stopgaps" and retire fleet that it just proquired in 10-15 years! we have OHP for that porpose which apparetnly cost 60 million dollars which btw is a "tactical stopgap" and is plan to stay till 2020+. MEKO has no chance in PN as they are in love with Fremm. thats why i said did anyone catch PTV talk show about PN modernization? it covered all that and they were very positive about its capabilities even in the future as it has room for upgradtion.

There is less of a chance of PN getting OHP than any European ship.

Take a look at the F-22P's capabilities in comparison to the newer MILGEM and whatever new frigate PN acquires after it. What will PN use a 2500+ ton vessel for? Patrol? The news about F-22P facing a relatively is coming straight from PakDef from people who were the ones talking to PN as well as PAF and PA. Don't believe me, then go look through the archives yourself...or search my posts. Where did you pull out the FREMM? Know that it is an even more expensive ship than MEKO!?

Granted F-22P can be upgraded in certain areas, but to what extent are we willing to cough up on a design based on an already 20+ year old hull? Have you bothered to study to the limits of F-22P in terms of its ASW and AAW...there are smaller ships - of 2000 tonnes - which can do far better, and are cheaper to maintain and operate.

Look at it from a rational perspective first; 15 years from now is what, 2026? Do you know what sort of ships will be out there? Even for training and coastal patrol there will be better systems than F-22P. Then 4 years later it will be 2030, what the hell do you think everyone in our region will have? The F-22P has reached the limits of its original hull, and has been acquired as a tactical stopgap at a time when our options were severely limited.

Secondly, the OHPs are more or less down the drain and you will need to give some sources regarding FREMM. With regards to MEKO I can pull out for you a translated German article, as well as 2 report posts by PakDef's analysts. Regarding the F-22P, well you can take another look at it yourself, but I will gladly give you the PakDef side of it as well if you persist. You can ask around on how far PN can upgrade its AAW and ASW in light of future threats in say 2030 or so...and judge yourself whether it should be operating; a target like F-22P or something more effecient and potent like MILGEM?

Your best to stop hounding behind my posts now, it's one of the few things that do tick me off on a forum to the point of real absurdity.

 

[Nutuk]

Although nothing official yet, my chip would be that Pakistan could get perry frigates from Turkey as soon as they are replaced by Milgem corvettes. So by 2015 Turkey could theoretically transfer 4 Perry frigates which would function as stopgap for the Pakistani navy untill she get more modern surface ships. Note that the Turkish Perry's have been modernized with a new (GENESIS) battle management system and in relative good state.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Ohh sh*t, as i was about to click post bijili dafha ho gayii and that wonderful long post went down the drain!


@ Mark Sien

to cut the long story short.

-F-22P is pretty much the cheapest and well capable ship we can get for such little amount. Milgem is not gonna cost no less then 150 million dollars but lacks fire power that F-22P has, however Milgem is definatly more modern.

-NO WAY a newly proquired product will ever gonna be used as stopgap in PN that has not even entered service. and you can not prove it thus its just your own perception.

-F-22P can retreat back to costal patrole beyond 2025 but definalty not gonna be replaced any time before 2030.

-PN has soon interusts in FREMM ever since the project was launched, and FREMM has shown up twice in IDEAS along with new DCNS Gowind corvettes.

-Meko A-200 is still not good enough to give PN a technical advantage ahead of Indian fleet beyound 2020, heck even Talwar I & II may out class "fishing boat MEKO".

-

A DDG-51 Arleigh Burke Class AEGIS destroyer can already perform all of these roles at a top-tier level, but they weigh 8,350t/9,200 tons and cost about $1.1 billion each, even after a production run of over 60 ships. In contrast, FREMM is a European project that aims to offer less all-around performance in a 5,800t hull, while including design advances like greater stealth, and Herakles/ Empar electronically scanned radars whose multiple-beam capabilities offer a potent defense against saturation attacks from supersonic missiles. All for a target price around EUR 350-450 million (currently about $525-675 million) per ship.

 

[IceCold]

would you stop carrying around same absurd opinion about F-22P in every thread possible! PN is not dumb enough to waist 700+ million dollars to full fill "tactical stopgaps" and retire fleet that it just proquired in 10-15 years! we have OHP for that porpose which apparetnly cost 60 million dollars which btw is a "tactical stopgap" and is plan to stay till 2020+. MEKO has no chance in PN as they are in love with Fremm. thats why i said did anyone catch PTV talk show about PN modernization? it covered all that and they were very positive about its capabilities even in the future as it has room for upgradtion.

I agree. F-22p seems to be far from being just a stopgap for PN. Moreover we should also realize that PN is a budget constraint Navy and we do not have the luxury of buying things just for stopgap purpose and everything is planned accordingly.
However i do think as Mark also pointed out that in the future PN will look for something a bit bigger displacement then the F-22s, perhaps imo the type054 may fit in the bill. But in any case Lets wait and watch.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Guys, please do not disrespect each other. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if you disagree and fail to convince someone towards your line of thought, just agree to disagree and move on with other topics of debate.

 

[Quwa]

to cut the long story short.

-F-22P is pretty much the cheapest and well capable ship we can get for such little amount. Milgem is not gonna cost no less then 150 million dollars but lacks fire power that F-22P has, however Milgem is definatly more modern.

Right, care to post up a comparison of the F-22P and MILGEM? Or do you want me to do that for you as well? Why don't you ask someone if you could attach VLS cells to F-22P and MILGEM?

-NO WAY a newly proquired product will ever gonna be used as stopgap in PN that has not even entered service. and you can not prove it thus its just your own perception.

PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PN related discussion: January – April 2008

-PN has soon interusts in FREMM ever since the project was launched, and FREMM has shown up twice in IDEAS along with new DCNS Gowind corvettes.

Yeah, Lockheed Martin also showed up at IDEAS with Patriot? So what if FREMM and Gowind were shown at IDEAS, DCN want to market their products and obviously know PN wants new vessels...so yes they will offer something.

-Meko A-200 is still not good enough to give PN a technical advantage ahead of Indian fleet beyound 2020, heck even Talwar I & II may out class "fishing boat MEKO".

lol...MEKO A-200 can be equipped with the same sort of weapon-systems as FREMM. Before you pull out the South African system, please do some research on modularity and export customer-specifications. Tell me, what the hell will the Talwar do if MEKO A-200 was armed with 4x2 RBS-15mk3 or Harpoon Block-II? What if its mainstay helicopter was NH-90 NFH? How would you rate its AAW capability if it was armed with 32-cell Aster-15 or ESSM...along with a PDMS like RAM? Don't give me garbage, give me hard links or objective comparisons based on what each builder is willing to offer.

Secondly, there is also something called the MEKO D-series, which may also be offered to PN. We don't know what type is being looked at...but if DCN pitched the FREMM, then the only ship similar in displacement is the MEKO D500.

The MEKO D frigate can accomplish the following goals: Participation in national and international operations in the context of NATO and United Nations. Operations as an individual ship or within a task force. Finally, full capability to perform AAW, ASW, ASuW, special operations and land attack missions.

This vessel can be outfitted with active phased array radar with six surfaces, tracking radar units, electro-optical trackers, navigation radar units, hull sonar, and towed sonar. The weapon options include one 127mm naval gun, anti-ship missiles, vertical launch canisters (VLS) for a wide range of missiles, Polyphem land attack missiles, decoy units, remotely controlled 27mm guns, and a medium-weight multi-purpose helicopter

http://www.deagel.com/Frigates/MEKO-D_a000251001.aspx

...and...

MEKO D 500 Frigate

In order to fulfill Anti-Air Warfare requirements with comprehensive capabilities the MEKO® D 500 Frigate has been outfitted with an impressive Combat Suite.

The MEKO® Modular Concept’s inherent flexibility enables the installation of a variety of different weapon and sensor systems, as well as different propulsion plant configurations ranging from CODLAG via CODAG or CODOG to All Electric Propulsion.

http://www.thyssenkrupp-marinesyste...4&CatID=3.283.476.514&inhalt_id=465&detail=35


PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PN related discussion: Sep – Dec 2008

4- PN will keep Type-21 operational till 2021 and plans to replace them with some new frigate design and manufactured in Pakistan

5- PN hopes to purchase six Oliver Hazard Perry-class from the US but if it can't manage to procure six-OHP than it will purchase Type 054 frigates from China or MEKO-frigates from Germany

6- Point 5 is a clear indication that PN intends to to keep fostering its relationships with Turkey & Germany and the replacement for Type-21 might involve Pak-Turkey-Germany.

"the order offers besides the chance on future orders, is there the navy of Pakistan indication in accordance with at a long-term partnership interested." That could be. Pakistan would like later further submarines and shows up also interested in German frigates and corvettes of the type MEKO A200 and/or A100. Their manufacturer, Blohm & Voss, belongs likewise to TKMS.

U-Boote für Pakistan?

Give me your links. I don't care even if you can give a primary source without media or a well known person, I can check up on their credibility anyways.

 

[IceCold]

Mark i have seen alot of dicussion going on over the MEKO and FREMM, what i want to ask is that since we are going for a chinese platform the F-22p, isn't is logical to go for something like i mentioned in my previous post the Type054 or 054A? Are they being evaluated by the PN who will be looking for something larger then the F-22p.

 

[Quwa]

Mark i have seen alot of dicussion going on over the MEKO and FREMM, what i want to ask is that since we are going for a chinese platform the F-22p, isn't is logical to go for something like i mentioned in my previous post the Type054 or 054A? Are they being evaluated by the PN who will be looking for something larger then the F-22p.

Type-054(A) is being considered, there is no doubt in that...but PN is also considering the MEKO design. Like the Chinese, the Germans can provide comprehensive offers at reasonable rates. If you look at the Diehl BGT site, they are licensed to produce and market the RBS-15Mk3 AShM and Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) PDMS...and are now developing a naval-IRIS-T SL medium-range SAM with explicit hopes for export.

It is also worth noting that Saab offered Turkey the same license-production & marketing rights for RBS-15Mk3...which the Turkish Navy could choose for use on MILGEM & future indigenously produced combatants.

Another possibility is Diehl BGT allowing Pakistan to produce the IRIS-T and its variants - IRIS-T SL, LFK-NG and IDAS - for its domestic requirements. The PAF may use IRIS-T with JF-17 & FC-20; IRIS-T SL & IDAS may be used by PN & PA; LFK-NG for SHORAD, etc.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Right, care to post up a comparison of the F-22P and MILGEM? Or do you want me to do that for you as well? Why don't you ask someone if you could attach VLS cells to F-22P and MILGEM?.

dont want to do that but i will be happy to give you F-22 spec. but you know this vs that should not be coming from a thinktank member.

Displacement: 2500 tons
Length: 118m estimated
Range: 4,000 miles
Armament:
8 x C-802 SSM in 2 x 4-cell box launchers
1 x 8-cell FM-90 SAM
1 x AK-176M 76.2mm Main Gun
2 x AK-630M 30mm CIWS
ANTI-SUBMARINE SYSTEMS
The ship has two 6-tubed Type 3200 antisubmarine rocket launchers located on the bow deck with 36 rockets. The rocket has a 34kg warhead and a maximum range of 1,200m. Other ASW system includes two depth charge racks.
(btw does F-22 carry any torpedos?)
Aircraft carried: Harbin Z-9EC

PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PN related discussion: January – April 2008

PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PN related discussion: Sep – Dec 2008

your crediblity has gone down the drain after you have given me links that has no credibility its self and you should know that! why should i care or why should anyone believe what a member has to say who does not even represent the officals! why should i believe F-22P will be used as stopgap when you can not prove it with facts and links!

Yeah, Lockheed Martin also showed up at IDEAS with Patriot? So what if FREMM and Gowind were shown at IDEAS, DCN want to market their products and obviously know PN wants new vessels...so yes they will offer something.

LM showed up with Pat II which pakistan rejected! DCN did not show up just like that, PN must have given them approval which must have meet their requirement!

Tell me, what the hell will the Talwar do if MEKO A-200 was armed with 4x2 RBS-15mk3 or Harpoon Block-II?

2x Multi barrel CIWS!
as a matter of fact, even amazon class can fire what you have mentioned!

Give me your links. I don't care even if you can give a primary source without media or a well known person, I can check up on their credibility anyways.

how about a youtube video?

 

[Quwa]

dont want to do that but i will be happy to give you F-22 spec. but you know this vs that should not be coming from a thinktank member.

Displacement: 2500 tons
Length: 118m estimated
Range: 4,000 miles
Armament:
8 x C-802 SSM in 2 x 4-cell box launchers
1 x 8-cell FM-90 SAM
1 x AK-176M 76.2mm Main Gun
2 x AK-630M 30mm CIWS
ANTI-SUBMARINE SYSTEMS
The ship has two 6-tubed Type 3200 antisubmarine rocket launchers located on the bow deck with 36 rockets. The rocket has a 34kg warhead and a maximum range of 1,200m. Other ASW system includes two depth charge racks.
(btw does F-22 carry any torpedos?)
Aircraft carried: Harbin Z-9EC

You can't even tell the difference between a legacy anti-submarine rocket launcher and modern ASW systems utilizing light torpedoes. The MILGEM has a 2x3 torpedo launcher and capability to eventually use ASROC. Secondly, the F-22P's AAW is at its limit, the MILGEM's 21-cell missile RAM alone is better for air defence, but add the VLS, and we have something else.

your crediblity has gone down the drain after you have given me links that has no credibility its self and you should know that! why should i care or why should anyone believe what a member has to say who does not even represent the officals! why should i believe F-22P will be used as stopgap when you can not prove it with facts and links!

Actually PakDef is the most credible source for Pakistani defence news...with Usman Shabbir, H Khan and pshamim as its most credible reporters. You can ask the Defence.pk Admin and even our moderator blain2 to verify my links further.

LM showed up with Pat II which pakistan rejected! DCN did not show up just like that, PN must have given them approval which must have meet their requirement!

It's an international seminar, DCN is there for not only Pakistan, but many other potential customers. In IDEAS 2008 DCN displayed Scorpene, does that mean the PAF will drop U214? Granted DCN wants a piece of PN's frigate requirements, but unless you can provide some source the PN has not shown official interest in FREMM.

2x Multi barrel CIWS!
as a matter of fact, even amazon class can fire what you have mentioned!

Care to read the whole statement next time? Anyways, so Talwar may be able to stop MEKO A200's AShMs...the same standard of AShMs that FREMM could use...and somehow MEKO's AAW systems...the same standard AAW that FREMM could use will not stop Talwar's offensive?

how about a youtube video?

Go right ahead.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You can't even tell the difference between a legacy anti-submarine rocket launcher and modern ASW systems utilizing light torpedoes. The MILGEM has a 2x3 torpedo launcher and capability to eventually use ASROC. Secondly, the F-22P's AAW is at its limit, the MILGEM's 21-cell missile RAM alone is better for air defence, but add the VLS, and we have something else..

you do realise that Milgem is more expensive thus the capability are better! if PN had more budget i am sure they would have meet your wish list, but unfortunatly thats not the case and they will stick to more cost effective solution for now. F-22 is PN first step to modernize its surface fleet and more capable "more expensive" fleet will be proquired over long period of time "10-15" years. China is also developing RAM which are sure to be equiped in new F-22P II and the older onces could be MLU with RAM and thats not a problem.

Actually PakDef is the most credible source for Pakistani defence news...with Usman Shabbir, H Khan and pshamim as its most credible reporters. You can ask the Defence.pk Admin and even our moderator blain2 to verify my links further.

why should anyone take some once opinion as "credible" or as facts!? they may be good at anaylsts but this sort of sutff coming from think tanks like F-22 will be used as stopgap will sure lose their crediblity! and somtimes its you people who misinform other members.

It's an international seminar, DCN is there for not only Pakistan, but many other potential customers. In IDEAS 2008 DCN displayed Scorpene, does that mean the PAF will drop U214? Granted DCN wants a piece of PN's frigate requirements, but unless you can provide some source the PN has not shown official interest in FREMM.

oh really? serioulsy?! your logic is lame! and i dont have to comment any further..