F-22P question

[hj786]

^ thanks for sharing man... ignore the F-22P haters, its very capable frigate for its money!

Cmon bro, no need to be like that. Nobody here is hating on the F-22P.

The F-22P is cheap and can theoretically be equipped with decent AAW and good AShW...while electronically it can communicate with P-3C & Z-9EC for ASW. However this is not an optimal solution...

Thanks for posting those wicked pics shchinese. Big bro and his little bro's when finished will serve PN well.

 

[shchinese]

^ thanks for sharing man... ignore the F-22P haters, its very capable frigate for its money!

in my understanding, the best weapon is not the most effective one, the best weapon is the most effective one that you can build/maintain by your own. F-22P is one of such weapons.

now what really matters is to have the next batch of technologies cooperation/transfer, Pakistan needs to be able to build those radars/sonar/missiles. maybe not all of these, as it would cost too much if you push it altogether, but the important thing is to start such projects together so we can build better radars/sonar/missiles together.

I won't worry anything about those haters, if they are foreigners, then it is none of their business to comments on such cooperative projects. if they are Pakistani citizens, then well, I think they should have their say for such warships which are in general expensive and are being built using their tax money. their concerns/expectations can be taken into consideration in the next generation warships - as we are not just going to stop here.

 

[jupiter2007]

in my understanding, the best weapon is not the most effective one, the best weapon is the most effective one that you can build/maintain by your own. F-22P is one of such weapons.

now what really matters is to have the next batch of technologies cooperation/transfer, Pakistan needs to be able to build those radars/sonar/missiles. maybe not all of these, as it would cost too much if you push it altogether, but the important thing is to start such projects together so we can build better radars/sonar/missiles together.

I won't worry anything about those haters, if they are foreigners, then it is none of their business to comments on such cooperative projects. if they are Pakistani citizens, then well, I think they should have their say for such warships which are in general expensive and are being built using their tax money. their concerns/expectations can be taken into consideration in the next generation warships - as we are not just going to stop here.

1) First of all, who the hell pay taxes in Pakistan?
Most of the money is stolen by corrupted politicians.

2) Pakistan is at least a decade away from developing advance radars and Sonar. Pakistan first need to setup research and development institutes, and encourage and promote private companies to joint development of new technology or enhence existing technology.

Pakistan can get TOT but it's not going to help in long run because there is no system setup to support it. We got to TOT for Agusta-90B sub, 3rd sub Hamza, was manufactured entirely in Karachi. what happened? Why aren’t Pakistan building more locally produce sub? Is Pakistan not capable of building it's own sub?

 

[hj786]

2) Pakistan is at least a decade away from developing advance radars and Sonar. Pakistan first need to setup research and development institutes, and encourage and promote private companies to joint development of new technology or enhence existing technology.

Bro, a Pakistani company working for PN is developing an indigenous towed array sonar system for use with Agosta 90B and other naval platforms! That is confirmed.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

1) First of all, who the hell pay taxes in Pakistan?
Most of the money is stolen by corrupted politicians.

2) Pakistan is at least a decade away from developing advance radars and Sonar. Pakistan first need to setup research and development institutes, and encourage and promote private companies to joint development of new technology or enhence existing technology.

Pakistan can get TOT but it's not going to help in long run because there is no system setup to support it. We got to TOT for Agusta-90B sub, 3rd sub Hamza, was manufactured entirely in Karachi. what happened? Why aren’t Pakistan building more locally produce sub? Is Pakistan not capable of building it's own sub?

do some research because you would not have asked these questions!
btw, Pak will shortly start building stealth U-boats subs.

 

[Quwa]

2) Pakistan is at least a decade away from developing advance radars and Sonar. Pakistan first need to setup research and development institutes, and encourage and promote private companies to joint development of new technology or enhence existing technology.

Advanced Towed Array Sonar (ATAS) developed by Maritime Systems Ltd. (MSL) for use on Agosta-90B, U214 & future corvette (LINK). Given the increase of cooperation with Turkey, I would not be surprised if Pakistan joins their naval programs in radars, sonars, sensors, etc.

Pakistan can get TOT but it's not going to help in long run because there is no system setup to support it. We got to TOT for Agusta-90B sub, 3rd sub Hamza, was manufactured entirely in Karachi. what happened? Why aren’t Pakistan building more locally produce sub? Is Pakistan not capable of building it's own sub?

Just because they're not producing more doesn't mean they "can't"...why on earth would Pakistan even offer the Agosta-90B for export just a couple of years ago? Clearly financial resources are being focused into acquiring a superior submarine - i.e. U214 - and KSEW will be modified to produce the German submarines. As per the link I posted the PN wants a fleet of 12-14 new submarines...so it will have to produce a fair number of new SSKs. Who knows, we may see Pakistan design a new SSK capable of launching SLCMs....

 

[jupiter2007]

Pakistan should build atleast 2 more modified version of Agosta 90b with AIP

16 surface-to-surface missiles or torpedoes. The surface-to-surface missile is the submarine-launched Harpoon, which delivers a 227kg warhead to a range of 130km at high subsonic speed. Four of the tubes have a 650mm diameter which could provide the capability of launching Swimmer Delivery Vehicles (SDVs). With liners the tubes could be used for torpedoes. Six tubes of 533mm diameter for launching. Submarine armed with WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes.

 

[Penguin]

Pakistan should build atleast 2 more modified version of Agosta 90b with AIP

The bit of text you quoted, it is from Naval Technology and applies to the Dolphin class in service in the Israeli navy. I'm not quite sure how this relates to the rest of your post. Could you explain please?

 

[jupiter2007]

The bit of text you quoted, it is from Naval Technology and applies to the Dolphin class in service in the Israeli navy. I'm not quite sure how this relates to the rest of your post. Could you explain please?

What I am trying to say is that Pakistan should not close the door on Agosta 90b production. They should try to build few more modified version of Agosta Sub by incorporating some of the technology from other (German) subs into Agosta 90b. For example, using Harpoon missiles (range 130km) instead of Exocet SM39 (range 50km), adding "pakistani nuclear SLBM", and have SDVs capability, and adding WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes.

 

[Tomahawk]

What I am trying to say is that Pakistan should not close the door on Agosta 90b production. They should try to build few more modified version of Agosta Sub by incorporating some of the technology from other (German) subs into Agosta 90b. For example, using Harpoon missiles (range 130km) instead of Exocet SM39 (range 50km), adding "pakistani nuclear SLBM", and have SDVs capability, and adding WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes.

I dont think so that it is possible to integrate Nuclear SLBM (Submarine Launch Ballistic Missile) in Agosta 90B, due to its displacement limitation. If you want to make a Nuclear SLBM capable submarine you need to work on a design of submarine that carries the designation of "SSBN" or atleast "SSN", that you can take as a basis of your design and then you can make further R&D to it.
But the real question is that does our PN has the budget for that? Because huge amount of money is required for building and maintaining such a submarine.

 

[araz]

I dont think so that it is possible to integrate Nuclear SLBM (Submarine Launch Ballistic Missile) in Agosta 90B, due to its displacement limitation. If you want to make a Nuclear SLBM capable submarine you need to work on a design of submarine that carries the designation of "SSBN" or atleast "SSN", that you can take as a basis of your design and then you can make further R&D to it.
But the real question is that does our PN has the budget for that? Because huge amount of money is required for building and maintaining such a submarine.

I agree. We will have SLBM capability launchable through 533 mm tubes but true ICBM missile capabiltiy is out of our doctrine. However, I would be all for PN making further forays in research about an indegenous platform with help from turkey and China. whether we build larger submarines or not we shouldhave the capabiltiy to do so within our reach.
Araz

 

[jupiter2007]

I dont think so that it is possible to integrate Nuclear SLBM (Submarine Launch Ballistic Missile) in Agosta 90B, due to its displacement limitation. If you want to make a Nuclear SLBM capable submarine you need to work on a design of submarine that carries the designation of "SSBN" or atleast "SSN", that you can take as a basis of your design and then you can make further R&D to it.
But the real question is that does our PN has the budget for that? Because huge amount of money is required for building and maintaining such a submarine.

What about using Harpoon missiles (range 130km) on Agosta -90b? and adding EDO Reconnaissance Systems AR-900 electronic support measures/direction-finding (ESM/DF) system use in SSK Scorpene Attack Submarine?

 

[Penguin]

What I am trying to say is that Pakistan should not close the door on Agosta 90b production. They should try to build few more modified version of Agosta Sub by incorporating some of the technology from other (German) subs into Agosta 90b. For example, using Harpoon missiles (range 130km) instead of Exocet SM39 (range 50km), adding "pakistani nuclear SLBM", and have SDVs capability, and adding WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes.

Technically, I'm sure it would not be too difficult at all to integrate UGM-84 Harpoon into Agosta 90B. I think it is more a matter of national pride with the French that they sell their sublaunched AShM with their subs. As for SM-39 Exocet, ro push for a sub-launched MM-40 block 3 version might also be an option:

In May 2002, a new MM-40 design was proposed, featuring a turbojet engine that would give the missile a maximum range of 180 km. A development and initial production contract awarded in February 2004. The MM-40 Block 3 design, as it is known, will be for both ship- and ground-launched variants, with the first operational missile expected for deployment on “La Fayette” class frigates. Sources indicate that a vertical launch capability may be developed, and that air- and submarine-launched versions may follow.

MissileThreat :: MM-40 Exocet

Likewise, there does not appear a technical obstacle to integrating WASS Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes into Agosta-90B. Or Swimmer delivery vehicle(s). That's a matter of budget and (international) politics.

WASS - Heavy Weight Torpedo Systems
http://www.wass.it/WASSWEB/brochure/black_shark.pdf
SEAL Delivery Vehicle [SDV]
Sea Dagger Special Operations Submarines - Naval Technology

As for SLBM capability, why bother? Main threat is regional, not intercontinental. You have Babur, which if apparently based on Tomahawk. If developers were smart, they made Babur so that it could be fit/fired from 533mm torpedo tubes (just like Tomahawk) . For SLBM you'ld need a substantially larger sub than Agosta 90B, for starters. Then, the underwater launch capability for ballistic missiles. Then, a suitable missile. I wouldn't waste defense funds on SLBM if I were PN.

 

[jupiter2007]

Technically, I'm sure it would not be too difficult at all to integrate UGM-84 Harpoon into Agosta 90B. I think it is more a matter of national pride with the French that they sell their sublaunched AShM with their subs. As for SM-39 Exocet, ro push for a sub-launched MM-40 block 3 version might also be an option:

MissileThreat :: MM-40 Exocet

Likewise, there does not appear a technical obstacle to integrating WASS Black Shark heavyweight torpedoes into Agosta-90B. Or Swimmer delivery vehicle(s). That's a matter of budget and (international) politics.

WASS - Heavy Weight Torpedo Systems
http://www.wass.it/WASSWEB/brochure/black_shark.pdf
SEAL Delivery Vehicle [SDV]
Sea Dagger Special Operations Submarines - Naval Technology

As for SLBM capability, why bother? Main threat is regional, not intercontinental. You have Babur, which if apparently based on Tomahawk. If developers were smart, they made Babur so that it could be fit/fired from 533mm torpedo tubes (just like Tomahawk) . For SLBM you'ld need a substantially larger sub than Agosta 90B, for starters. Then, the underwater launch capability for ballistic missiles. Then, a suitable missile. I wouldn't waste defense funds on SLBM if I were PN.

I thought that MM-40 block 3 are land base missle not submarine launch missile.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I would be happy if you provide a source on F-22P II now .

I don't care what you call it or what you think, I want a link on the F-22P II garbage you posted about.

Show us a source about these so-called improvements and what not.
I want to see a link regarding PN interest in FREMM and this 3000t F-22P.

3) F-22P-II/3000t F-22P

Show me a link

well all along you have been harping about sourse links links, here is what Pshamim has to say about the new F-22s.

In regard to the f-22P, looks like Pakistan has ordered another 4 as reported before. Change is that the new one will be close to 3000 tons as compared to the first batch at 2400.