F-22P question

[hj786]

you do realise that Milgem is more expensive thus the capability are better! if PN had more budget i am sure they would have meet your wish list, but unfortunatly thats not the case and they will stick to more cost effective solution for now. F-22 is PN first step to modernize its surface fleet and more capable "more expensive" fleet will be proquired over long period of time "10-15" years. China is also developing RAM which are sure to be equiped in new F-22P II and the older onces could be MLU with RAM and thats not a problem.


why should anyone take some once opinion as "credible" or as facts!? they may be good at anaylsts but this sort of sutff coming from think tanks like F-22 will be used as stopgap will sure lose their crediblity! and somtimes its you people who misinform other members.



oh really? serioulsy?! your logic is lame! and i dont have to comment any further..

chill, one of his sources is an ex-PAF fighter pilot and another writes articles for Janes Defence and other publications. They have much insider knowledge. They said U214 would be selected 6 months before it came out in the news - just one of many examples.

Personally I agree with you, F-22P won't be retired, just upgraded. But MarkSien's sources are more credible than anything you have. Guaranteed.

 

[Quwa]

you do realise that Milgem is more expensive thus the capability are better! if PN had more budget i am sure they would have meet your wish list, but unfortunatly thats not the case and they will stick to more cost effective solution for now. F-22 is PN first step to modernize its surface fleet and more capable "more expensive" fleet will be proquired over long period of time "10-15" years. China is also developing RAM which are sure to be equiped in new F-22P II and the older onces could be MLU with RAM and thats not a problem.

lol...you were originally saying that F-22P had "more firepower", now the issue is MILGEM is more expensive, which is true I agree. However remember that F-22P's base-hull is Type-053H3, and many of those have been built to offset its original development costs. In the long-run the MILGEM should be able to rival the F-22P procurement costs once exports and more domestic orders are properly secured. Even if the MILGEM is still more expensive, its operation and maintenance costs will still be less than F-22P...i.e. lighter ship, less crew, higher automation and effecient propulsion systems, etc.

I would be happy if you provide a source on F-22P II now...the FL-3000N (Chinese RAM) is likely an export-system, and can be integrated to most surface ships regardless of origin - whether Chinese, German, Turkish, French, etc.

why should anyone take some once opinion as "credible" or as facts!? they may be good at anaylsts but this sort of sutff coming from think tanks like F-22 will be used as stopgap will sure lose their crediblity! and somtimes its you people who misinform other members.

pshamim is an ex-PAF pilot who said PN will get U214 months before negotiations were announced in the press. H Khan was the one who verified the F-16C/D numbers at 18 w/option for 18 at least a week before it was revealed on DSCA...BTW, H Khan also said that another DSCA will be released soon in which PA is expected to request more Cobras, C2, etc. (link) Usman Shabbir is a source/referrence to Janes, Air Forces Monthly and DefenseNews...in fact, H Khan is also a source for DefenseNews. I can give you the articles in which they were interviewed...

You are free to ask this forum's admin and moderators too!.

oh really? serioulsy?! your logic is lame! and i dont have to comment any further..

Good, you can instead spend your time giving me your links on PN being interested in FREMM and this F-22P II thing you just reported. After you're done with that, I'd be happy to know how my logic is questionable.

Just remember, IDEAS is a defence seminar where companies come to offer goods to potential customers, not just the host. DCN wanted to pitch an offer for PN's frigate requirements and it offered FREMM and FM400 (reported on ADJ). Keep in mind, DCN also pitched Marlin and Gowind 120 to the PN in IDEAS 2006, but the PN chose U214 and MILGEM. Just because they display something, it doesn't mean PN is going to get it for sure...nor have any of us heard of official interest in FREMM!

 

[EagleEyes]

3. OHP and F-22p will still be considered a strong stop Gap arrangement as PN will be going for a more advanced contingent of frigates and Corvettes.

PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PN related discussion: January – April 2008

It really depends on how you look at a "Stop Gap Measure". PN has always used frigates for decades, even when they were procured from a country like UK when they were retired from their navy. So really in my opinion F-22p will be used effectively and as a work horse.

 

[Quwa]

It really depends on how you look at a "Stop Gap Measure". PN has always used frigates for decades, even when they were procured from a country like UK when they were retired from their navy. So really in my opinion F-22p will be used effectively and as a work horse.

It depends on the scenario and situation. In the past we should admit that the Pakistani Govt/Military did not pay a whole lot of attention to PN and the naval scenario as much as they should have. Granted the Type-21s are now very old, but are they a result of solely PN's doctrine, or perhaps mostly due to the neglect by Pakistani planners? If the Navy was the most important organization, then would be using Type-21s today? I doubt...

Can we say such a precedent will continue in the future? We have to recognize that the ships that will be in mainstay service in 2030 will be using stealthier hulls; phased-array radars; VLS for key weapon-systems; highly automated; more versatile. The key issue is that PN will also acquire such ships by 2030, but would have F-22P as well...and for what purpose? It is clear that the F-22P's hull - which is based on the decades old Type-053-series - cannot be upgraded with all the goods say MILGEM, MEKO, FM400, etc, would have. There is a reason why the PLAN is shifting to the Type-054 series as their mainstay frigate and are even developing a corvette/light frigate to supplement it! If the Type-053 hull had that much potential, then surely on the basis of overall costs, etc, they would have upgraded it further, correct?

So what can PN use F-22P for in 2030 on wards? Patrol? Why when we could have lighter, cheaper and more effecient ships like MRTP? ASW? Well obviously it doesn't have a good ASW system. AAW and AShM? Clearly not. What about training? Possibly, but then again I would question that if it would be a good idea given F-22's limitations in the systems and weapons it can employ as compared to other ships.

 

[fatman17]

Type-21s are now very old, but are they a result of solely PN's doctrine, or perhaps mostly due to the neglect by Pakistani planners?

couldnt agree more - a grapevine story shows the desperation of the navy planners as the fuel (blending required) used by the frigates was not available with the local refineries and expensive fuel had to be imported from the US (Texaco was the company).

 

[hj786]

Well obviously it doesn't have a good ASW system. AAW and AShM? Clearly not. What about training? Possibly, but then again I would question that if it would be a good idea given F-22's limitations in the systems and weapons it can employ as compared to other ships.

It is difficult to believe PN would buy/build brand new ships that are basically obsolete. What is the point? Can PN afford stop-gap procurements such as F-22P?

Why didn't they go for Type 54? Chinese are too busy building them for themselves? why can't they give hull designs to PN and let KSEW build them? Or just go for MILGEM or whatever European designed ship PN wants now instead of later.

Type 21s have lasted decades and they're an old design. Why buy brand new F-22Ps if they can't last decades either?

 

[Quwa]

It is difficult to believe PN would buy/build brand new ships that are basically obsolete. What is the point? Can PN afford stop-gap procurements such as F-22P?

Why didn't they go for Type 54? Chinese are too busy building them for themselves? why can't they give hull designs to PN and let KSEW build them? Or just go for MILGEM or whatever European designed ship PN wants now instead of later.

Type 21s have lasted decades and they're an old design. Why buy brand new F-22Ps if they can't last decades either?

Type-21s are at their absolute limit, they're going by 2021. However please remember that the situations surrounding PN forced it to keep it in service this long. If it was a little more favourable, they would not be in service. The PN has spent years trying to find a replacement for Type-21 in the form of used frigates from Europe and U.S. It hopes to acquire the OHPs, but it does not seem likely right now, and we're at a point where PN can just operate Type-21!

The lack of used frigates from E.U/U.S was a reason why F-22P was signed in 2005. This deal was supposed to be signed much earlier, but at that time the PN was close to securing ex-Royal Navy Type-23s, but unfortunately lost the bid. At the time it was looking to acquire a fairly good number of used frigates and upgrade them, but is having a lot of difficulties. The next wave of used FFGs aren't going to become available until 2014, unless we get OHPs.

The F-22P is cheap and can theoretically be equipped with decent AAW and good AShW...while electronically it can communicate with P-3C & Z-9EC for ASW. However this is not an optimal solution, and hence ships such as MILGEM and new-gen FFGs like Type-054 or MEKO are required. However with MILGEM we can clearly see that there is an issue of time. This ship was still in development in 2005, and even if we ordered now it will take 10-years for the initial requirement of 4 to be met...and that does not include the time it takes to commission. If we intend to produce one of Type-054 and MEKO locally, then we can expect a lengthly timeframe as well. Plus at the time in 2003-2005 the budget for PN wasn't properly sorted out, the PN itself said that Type-054 was too expensive.

If you look carefully at H Khan's post, it has come to a point where PN needs to decide between 4 more F-22P or a new type of frigate. IF F-22P was truly a long-term absolute solution, then it should be a no brainer since we have the local production capability, infrastructure, etc, to simply produce 4 more. In fact we may be able to improve its AAW and tinker with its hull - extend it further - for a TAS and lightweight ASW torpedoes. However now the PN is looking to either get the OHPs or get one of Type-054 or MEKO. In terms of buying off-the-shelf without local production, TKMS can deliver the MEKO-ships in 4-5 years.

Again looking at H Khan's post, it appears that in the long-run the PN is looking at a much better route by developing a new frigate. Note the part where it says the Type-21 replacement may involve Turkey and Germany. Go by the MEKO and MILGEM designs, and you can see that this new frigate will be a stealthy design with proper multi-mission capability...it will also be produced in Pakistan to replace Type-21 by 2021.

If you look at the dates, it is clear that Type-21 will be replaced over the next decade. The F-22P may not be good as the MEKO, MILGEM, Future-FFG, etc, but it is certainly better than Type-21...and in hard financial times and under heavy embargoes, it gives our industry a chance to flourish.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

you know those fanboys harping about Pak military proquirments such as daily cry about F-16s, you fall in that catorgory when talking about F-22P frigate! so here we have apparently a THINK TANK challanging NHQ plannings.

lol...you were originally saying that F-22P had "more firepower", now the issue is MILGEM is more expensive, which is true I agree. However remember that F-22P's base-hull is Type-053H3

I still stand to my point, F-22 has more fire power and addition to this has better endurance. F-22P hull is not the same as 053 but is bit improved over the original hull.

I would be happy if you provide a source on F-22P II now

You do know PN has shown interusts in addition to 4 F-22 batch with further imporvments? i call it "II".

pshamim is an ex-PAF pilot who said PN will get U214 months before negotiations were announced in the press. H Khan was the one who verified the F-16C/D numbers at 18 w/option for 18 at least a week before it was revealed on DSCA...BTW, H Khan also said that another DSCA will be released soon in which PA is expected to request more Cobras, C2, etc. (link) Usman Shabbir is a source/referrence to Janes, Air Forces Monthly and DefenseNews...in fact, H Khan is also a source for DefenseNews. I can give you the articles in which they were interviewed...

good. however these sort of childish claims about F-22 as "stopgaps" will sure lose their credibility.

Good, you can instead spend your time giving me your links on PN being interested in FREMM and this F-22P II thing you just reported. After you're done with that, I'd be happy to know how my logic is questionable.

you do know that PN wants to have potent force of new surface fleet and what i think light-medium weight class frigates will be back bone for PN like F-22P class, while they can only offord only 4-6 "moderen" heavy 4000-6000T frigates.

Just remember, IDEAS is a defence seminar where companies come to offer goods to potential customers, not just the host. DCN wanted to pitch an offer for PN's frigate requirements and it offered FREMM and FM400 !

just one correction, FM400 were not displayed and neither many of other stuff talked about in IDEAS event bullitent. however, i have failed to understand why HDW with their frigates were not present at IDEAS when they know PN is apparently interusted in German "MEKO" frigates?

 

[Quwa]

you know those fanboys harping about Pak military proquirments such as daily cry about F-16s, you fall in that catorgory when talking about F-22P frigate! so here we have apparently a THINK TANK challanging NHQ plannings.

Like you're part of the NHQ. I don't care where you want to put me (even though I provide the necessary links), the whole world is free to see your so-called links when you actually post them. Don't think you can get away by childishly substituting required sources with stupid emocons. I'm waiting.

I still stand to my point, F-22 has more fire power and addition to this has better endurance. F-22P hull is not the same as 053 but is bit improved over the original hull.

It is still based on Type-053; it is an upgrade of an old hull design and thus has its limitations. F-22P might have better endurance and longer-range due to its larger displacement than MILGEM, but I want you to show me a link regarding the more firepower part.

You do know PN has shown interusts in addition to 4 F-22 batch with further imporvments? i call it "II".

I don't care what you call it or what you think, I want a link on the F-22P II garbage you posted about. Show us a source about these so-called improvements and what not.

good. however these sort of childish claims about F-22 as "stopgaps" will sure lose their credibility.

Right now you ought to save your credibility by posting some sources.

you do know that PN wants to have potent force of new surface fleet and what i think light-medium weight class frigates will be back bone for PN like F-22P class, while they can only offord only 4-6 "moderen" heavy 4000-6000T frigates.

Something like F-22P as a backbone won't give the PN a potent fleet. Modern light-medium frigates have solid anti-air warfare (AAW) capability, often entailing a 32-cell Vertical Launch System (VLS) equipped with short-to-medium-range SAMs such as the MBDA Aster-15 SAAM, Diehl BGT IRIS-T SL, Raytheon ESSM, etc. In addition to AAW, they also have superior anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities arranged along the lines of a Towed Array Sonar (TAS) and two triple-tubes for lightweight torpedoes such as Mk.46, MU90, Blue Shark, etc. The F-22P is neither equipped with those AAW and ASW systems, and it cannot be upgraded to those lengths...the hull has reached its limits.

However the PN does have better and truly long-term options. An obvious one would be to develop a new frigate with assistance from Turkey and Germany - as reported by H Khan on PakDef. Another would be to wait out for the Turkish TF-100 when it becomes available. Such a route will ensure that the PN has a fleet that stays relevent to its requirements and the surrounding situation for a very long time to come.

just one correction, FM400 were not displayed and neither many of other stuff talked about in IDEAS event bullitent. however, i have failed to understand why HDW with their frigates were not present at IDEAS when they know PN is apparently interusted in German "MEKO" frigates?

That bulletin is from the official IDEAS website. Secondly, just because you don't see the mock-ups, does not mean the company in question did not display documentation & images of the systems in question. ADJ probably asked the DCN officials and got a document detailing their export portfolio. HDW doesn't produce frigates, Blohm & Vloss are the ones who produce surface combatants; and together with HDW they are under the ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) flag.

People have a habit of simply taking images of stand-out models, and ignore pamphlets, booklets, boards, etc, that have other information...nor did a lot of people ask the officials about their companies/products. Unless you went there to verify that TKMS did not show anything about MEKO, and in addition said PN wasn't interested in MEKO...it is very much possible that TKMS did have goods/info available on MEKO at IDEAS 2008. Someone could have just asked them.

Which leads me to ask for the 6-7th time...please give us your link or source on PN's interest in FREMM and the info on "F-22P-II". I would also like some information on how F-22P has "more firepower" than MILGEM.

This time, don't bother posting without links to the above.

 

[wangrong]

Pakistan defense strategy：

Nuclear forces>PAF>Pakistan Army>Pakistan Navy


Pakistan Navy defense strategy：

"PAF">Submarine>.....

 

[Myth_buster_1]

@ mark

lol you are asking me of all the links but you have failed to prove that "PN is buying MEKO frigates" as you have been emphasizing. both FREMM and MEKO have same chances and its just our opinion but you are trying to make your opinion as facts!

this is how i see PN Frigates fleet by 2019

6 OHP
4 2500t F-22P (MLU)
4 3000t F-22P
4 4000+t Type-054/MEKO-A200
2 6000t FREMM

 

[Quwa]

@ mark

lol you are asking me of all the links but you have failed to prove that "PN is buying MEKO frigates" as you have been emphasizing. both FREMM and MEKO have same chances and its just our opinion but you are trying to make your opinion as facts!

this is how i see PN Frigates fleet by 2019

6 OHP
4 2500t F-22P (MLU)
4 3000t F-22P
4 4000+t Type-054/MEKO-A200
2 6000t FREMM

First of all, find a quotation of me saying "PN is buying MEKO"...next time don't put words in my mouth, or else you'll be on a holiday from this forum so you can learn proper quotation rules and also to put more attention into finding those links I wanted.

I want to see a link regarding PN interest in FREMM and this 3000t F-22P. I just asked where you got the PN looking at FREMM, and simply asked for a source. Regarding F-22P's stopgap issue, I gave a link straight back to pshamim on PakDef, the same man who said PN was planning on U214 in 2005 - months before the possibility was mentioned on the media. Regarding interest in MEKO, I gave a link straight back to H Khan on PakDef. The credibility of my sources can easily be verified by you going upto the administration; why don't you ask a moderator?

Now the onus is on you to give me sources/links.

Secondly, I don't care what you think what the PN fleet will be like 2019 unless you can back it up with some source. H Khan on PakDef (in an earlier link I posted) said by 2019 the PN would operate a 14-frigate fleet consisting of:

4 F-22P

6 Frigates of a new design built in Pakistan to replace Type-21; possibly involving cooperation from Turkey & Germany. It's possible that this design will form the backbone of the PN frigate fleet in the long-run...so we may see more produced.

4 additional F-22P, or used FFG or MEKO or Type-054. However since the PN wants to strengthen ties with Germany, it may choose MEKO and use it as a lead in for the new frigate to replace Type-21.

PakDef Forums - View Single Post - PN related discussion: Sep – Dec 2008

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpo... Post - PN related discussion: Sep - Dec 2008

If you have an issue with PakDef, then that's your problem and you can sort it out with the moderators. I don't care...I just want a link on each of the following points.

1) F-22P having more firepower than MILGEM
2) PN showing interest in FREMM
3) F-22P-II/3000t F-22P

Show me a link.

 

[Neo]

Guys, I suggest you both take a step back before things get out of hand.
Thanks!

 

[jupiter2007]

Turkish Corvette/Frigate project (MILGEM) Pakistan is going to order modified version of Milgem.

Type: Corvette / Frigate

Displacement: 1,800 to 2,000 ton (full load)

Length: 99.00 m
Beam: 14.40 m
Draught: 3.75 m
Propulsion: 1 gas turbine, 2 diesels, 2 shafts, 30,000 kW
Speed: Economy: 15 knots
Maximum: 29+ knots
Range: 3,500 nautical miles (6,480 km) @ 15 knots

Endurance: 21 days with logistic support, 10 days autonomous

Complement: 93 including aviation officers, with accommodation for up to 104

Sensors and processing systems: Fire control: G-MSYS (GENESIS Milgem Savaş Yönetim Sistemi)

Search radar: SMART-S Mk2
Other sensors: X-Band radar, fire control radar, navigation radar, LPI radar, sonar

Navigation and communication systems: Electronic Navigation, SatCom, ECDIS/WECDIS, GPS, LAN

Combat Management System: GENESIS (Gemi Entegre Savaş İdare Sistemi)

Navigation and ship control: EPKİS (Entegre Platform Kontrol ve İzleme Sistemi)

Integrated Platform Management System: Imtech UniMACS 3000

Electronic warfare and decoys: EW radar, Laser/RF systems, ASW jammers, DG, radar warning receivers (RWR), Surface Ship Torpedo Defence (SSTD), Two Mk-36RBOC 6-barrel chaff/decoy rocket launchers


Armament: Guns: 1 x 76 mm (retractable for lower radar cross section, guidance by fire control radar and electro-optical systems), A position
2 x 12.7 mm Aselsan STAMP Stabilized Machine Gun Platform (guidance by Laser/IR/TV and electro-optical systems, automatic and manual modes), B position

Anti-surface missile: 8 x Harpoon Missile [missile has a range of up to 130km], (or RBS15 Mk.III)

Anti-aircraft missile: 21 x RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile) PDMS , or Two 32-cell vertical launch Umkhonto anti-aircraft missiles. Umkhonto, developed by the Kentron division of Denel based in Centurion, South Africa, has a range of up to 12km. The missile uses an infra-red homing seeker with inertial mid-course guidance. The 23kg warhead is fitted with an active proximity fuse.

Torpedoes: 2 x 324 mm Mk.32 triple launchers for Mk.46 torpedoes

Aircraft carried: Hangar and platform for S-70-B2 Sea Hawk ASW helicopters, Eurocopter Panther and/or unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), with the capability of storing armaments, 20 tons of JP-5 aircraft fuel, aerial refueling (HIRF) systems and maintenance systems

 

[shchinese]

these are two photos that I just found on a Chinese forum. it seems both the 251 and the 252 are doing well and I would expect them to be handed over to PN at the end of the 2009.

I will post more pics if I can see more.





the original thread where I got these photos, the title says "Chinese new year is coming, time for the big brother (251 which has finished its first sea test and radar test) to have a photo with the little brother (252, no test finished yet?)
original post in Chinese.