F-22p News & Discussions

[omerhhh]

WE need more Destroyers frigates are good but we know that they won't work too well against aircraft cariers so we should forget about frigates and focu on destroyers and subs.

 

[Penguin]

Then PN will use F-22p near their shore not in the deep sea ,more like a corvette than frigate.

And as you say(in BOLD) it is more like building a base for construction of future warship.

This is what PN is actually doing IMHO

 

[Penguin]

WE need more Destroyers frigates are good but we know that they won't work too well against aircraft cariers so we should forget about frigates and focu on destroyers and subs.

Well, actually, destroyers work about as good or bad against carriers as frigates do. What distinguished the two is a) air defence capability and/or b) land attack capability, but most importantly c) sustained capability of any kind (ASW, ASuW, AAW, LA).

 

[Zarbe Momin]

If Pakistan navy can not put better air defence system on Frigrates then to buy new Frigrates or not to buy is same "meaningless".

 

[Penguin]

If Pakistan navy can not put better air defence system on Frigrates then to buy new Frigrates or not to buy is same "meaningless".

Of the current 6 Type 21 frigates, only 3 have LY-60 SAM (plus 2x 30mm AAA but not Harpoon AshM) and only 3 have Phalanx CIWS (plus Harpoon but no LY-60 and no 30mm AAA). By contrast, every F-22P has 2x 30mm gatling AAA (coupled into a single CIWS), FM-90/HQ-7 SAM and C-802 AShM. It's 76mm gun is better suited for AAW as is the 4,5" on the ex-UK ships. I would consider that to be an improvement in self-defence capability against both aircraft and missiles as well as against ships. PN does not do wider area air defense since a) in war with India it plans to operate its ships under land based fighter cover and b) out of area operations would mostly be during peacetime and/or as part of larger international force.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Of the current 6 Type 21 frigates, only 3 have LY-60 SAM (plus 2x 30mm AAA but not Harpoon AshM) and only 3 have Phalanx CIWS (plus Harpoon but no LY-60 and no 30mm AAA). By contrast, every F-22P has 2x 30mm gatling AAA (coupled into a single CIWS), FM-90/HQ-7 SAM and C-802 AShM. It's 76mm gun is better suited for AAW as is the 4,5" on the ex-UK ships. I would consider that to be an improvement in self-defence capability against both aircraft and missiles as well as against ships. PN does not do wider area air defense since a) in war with India it plans to operate its ships under land based fighter cover and b) out of area operations would mostly be during peacetime and/or as part of larger international force.

We should remember Atlantique Incident which took place in the Rann of Kutch on August 10, 1999. That took place because fighters were not with Atlantique for support. In war with India fighter cover will be available to Frigrates. But question is that without effective air defence system Frigrates will be safe. Yes aster 30 is heavier but no need to adjust Vertical Lanching system with 16 missels that can be with 8 missels or even with 6 missels. Without good long range missel defence system and with fighter cover, ineffective missel system and anti aircraft gun system Pakistan Navy Frigrates are sitting ducks. This is reality and we have to accept this reality.

 

[Super Falcon]

yes destroyers and submarines will do alot better

some destroyers from russia willl do great
Agosta 90 3
U 214 3
chinese type 94 3

willl do very goos which can also launch nuke cruise missiles

 

[Penguin]

We should remember Atlantique Incident which took place in the Rann of Kutch on August 10, 1999. That took place because fighters were not with Atlantique for support. In war with India fighter cover will be available to Frigrates. But question is that without effective air defence system Frigrates will be safe. Yes aster 30 is heavier but no need to adjust Vertical Lanching system with 16 missels that can be with 8 missels or even with 6 missels. Without good long range missel defence system and with fighter cover, ineffective missel system and anti aircraft gun system Pakistan Navy Frigrates are sitting ducks. This is reality and we have to accept this reality.

You are saying a 76mm DP naval gun, a HQ-7 point defense missile system plus a CIWS comprising 2 seven-barrel 30mm gatling guns does not constitute an effective air self-defence system? Essentially, that means any frigate is a sitting duck. Which is true if you employ it out of area. Note that even a group of frigate accompanied by an AAW specialized ship with long(er) range ships remains vulnerable to air and missile attack when away from land- or seabased fighter cover. This is the case even for Arleigh Burke or Type 45 Daring class destroyers. The question is - as always - what are you willing and able to spend, what can you get for that money, and priorities.

Again, it is not worth the investment of associated radar and firecontrol onto a ship if it is to carry only a few long range missiles. Point proven by e.g. the 3425 ton USN Brooke class frigates, four of which served in the PN from 1989 through 1993. The smallest ships currently equipped to handle Aster-30 are Singapore's 3200 ton Formidable class. They have 4 Sylver VLUs (total 32 cells) for a mix of Aster 15 and Aster 30. Search and missile control are by a single Herakles multifunction 3-D radar.

What could work for the F22P would be 1 single Mk41 VLU of the shortest variety, with 32 ESSM (which have range similar to that of the much bigger Shtils operated by IN but are a much more compact package). However, I'ld expect the number of firecontrol channels (illuminators) to be limited to 2 if not a multifunction radar like e.g. APAR, CEAFAR, ELTA MF-Star is used. Which would limit the usefullness in high threat areas.

 

[omerhhh]

Hey pengiun,you know alot about all these wessels so,how much do you think an aircraft carrier like the USS abraham licoln would cost and what abot nuclear subs like USS hartford?
thanks.

 

[Penguin]

Hey pengiun,you know alot about all these wessels so,how much do you think an aircraft carrier like the USS abraham licoln would cost and what abot nuclear subs like USS hartford?
thanks.

Unit Cost Nimitz Class carriers. according to the USN, about $4.5 billion each. However, I suspect that's not all costs. Consider this from wiki, quoting Kathy Adams, Kathy, "Newport News Shipyard Gets $5.1B Contract For Carrier Ford", in the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot, September 11, 2008:
"On 10 September 2008 the US Navy signed a $5.1 billion contract with Northrop Grumman Shipbuilding in Newport News, Virginia, to design and construct the carrier USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN-78). Northrop had begun advance construction of the carrier under a $2.7 billion contract in 2005."
That suggests total costs may be in the order of magnitude of $7.9 billion if the initial $2.7 billion are in addtion to those $5.1 billion. Also, I doubt these quotes include the cost of weaponry e.g. 60-80 aircraft.

Several sources put the unit cost of a Los Angelos (688) class nuclear-powered fast attack submarines (SSN) at $900 million in 1990 prices. The Seawolf class boats had a prohibitive unit cost of approximately $3 billion dollars, which effectively limited the Seawolf class to a run of three units. The Virginia-class submarines are estimated to have a unit cost of $2.1 billion, but the first six were built for a total cost of $8.7 billion ($1.45 billion each).
SSN-688 Los Angeles-class
The Five Nuclear Navies
America's Future Sub: The NSSN

That gives you an idea.

 

[araz]

Penguin.
When is the F22 p arriving in Pakistan? and when will it be formally inducted?
Thanks in advance.
Araz

 

[Penguin]

Penguin.
When is the F22 p arriving in Pakistan? and when will it be formally inducted?
Thanks in advance.
Araz

Can't really tell. Though the first is to be commissioned 2009 and the remainder (3 ships) by 2013.

 

[a1b2c145]

That's interesting.......cann't see the CIwS guns clearly. i thought there were supposed to be 2 on the f-22's

yes ,you are right ! there are 2 on the f-22

 

[Keysersoze]

yes ,you are right ! there are 2 on the f-22

Thanks but that question is two years old.........and answered.

 

[a1b2c145]

Rubbish!
In weapons alone there are:
2x multiple tubed ASW rocket launchers (forward of the main gun)
2x triple torpedo tubes for lightweight ASW torpedoes (forward of hanger, behind stack)
1x Z-9C helicopter (ASW capable: equipped with dipping sonar, sonar buoys, magnetic anomaly detector and two external weapon pylons to carry up to 2 ET52 a.k.a. Whithead A244/S anti-submarine torpedoes)

You wouldn't put such weapons on a ship if it hadn't the means to target them with. Indeed, F22P has 1x bow mounted sonar. It potentially has 1x sternmounted towed sonar (likely TAS rather than VDS).




Just because it doesn't have an automatic reloading device (visible) for reloading the HQ-7 launcher does not mean there are no spare rounds on board for manual re-loading... And the 76mm gun as well as the 6 barrel 30mm gatlings are distinctly AAW capable too.

you all mistook FM-90 as HQ-7 ,missiles on P-22 is FM-90, its a upgraded HQ-7!!!!!!!!!!FM-90 has added a laser beam tracker ,TV tracker system ,dual-band radar and anti-Interference component.

All right , pic above is an automatic (uauslly invisible behind the launcher )reloading device used for reloading the FM-90 launcher with 24 or 32 additional missiles which maximum length reachs as much as 20km for missiles close to the sea and 25km for planes, in fact, this missile with 35g maximum overload is a far advanced system in the world compared with others on the same level. no, may be it’s the best!!!