F-22 crashes in Florida

[Viper0011.]

I said it could either be cost issues, OR PROBABLY be reliability issues. I never branded the F22 as unreliable.

I am not claiming anything with regards to reliability or technicality. Am just saying that these could PROBABLY BE the reasons. If you read my original post it is very clear. The reliability claim is your extrapolation of my statement. My statement was very balanced.

I didnt get this paragraph of yours. How did F14 get into the discussion?

I havent denied anywhere that the F22 has some amazing tech stuff in it. But the fact that it hasnt impressed anybody that much through its combat performance, makes you wonder if it is just an overpriced plane with spectacular technology, albeit at an immature state. In the light of all the crashes etc., it strengthens that doubt.

Just to level set:
1) Yes, you've been branding the F-22 as a 'reliability issue', or 'due to software issues', etc. You can say it politely or bluntly or indirectly...the meaning doesn't change.

2) The F-14 got into the discussion as an example. When they rolled out brand spanking new F-14's, pilots were restricted in terms of speed, g movements, maneuvers, etc. Career based landings were a bit hard and a few accidents occurred. But then, F-14 served for over three decades with an impeccable record. When a fighter jet gets operational (consider a jet as a weapons system, not one machine), there are always issues related to the actual combat environment and the man-machine interface. That's where a weapons system gets matured. So there are always updates and rework. Once the system becomes operational, then it goes into the 'maintenance' mode, where things work on daily basis as expected and there are procedures for daily flight / equipment maintenance. No new issues are usually found that are drastically different vs. the capability and the functionality the plane was designed for.


3) As explained above, the F-22 (Weapons system, not a propeller plane with a small engine) is getting matured. So a crash isn't too bad, although expensive. It is the next generation tech so sure it'll be expensive. The First guy who invented the wheel felt the most pain than everyone else who just used it. That's US military industrial complex for ya!! Always ahead, always inventing new products and technologies!!

4) Last point is a response to many others who think that PakFa, J-20, FGFA, etc are the future big deals and that F-22 is an expensive marketing toy. Let me assure you. None of the above possess true stealth capability (let alone feature match for the unknown technologies present in the F-22).
None of the above posses technology and electronics that F-22 has. Trust me on this. There is a VERY valid reason why it will not be shared with the Europeans and the Japanese!!! The technologies being used in this plane works with insane precision and accuracy. Some of these technologies are pretty much proof of concepts around the world. But in F-22's case, these things are operational.
This plane is a fortress in itself. A squadron of these guys can go in, have a field day across hundreds of miles, actually create air dominance and leave debris and guess work behind within a matter of minutes!!

 

[fallstuff]

That’s true for every system, the US financial system is another example where credit and it derivatives got so complex that when is started to go wrong no one really knew what the hell was going on.

The F-22 has been under development since 1986 , there is bound to be code and ip in there whose original designers have moved on and even with the very strict DoD requirements for documentation , there is every chance that this machine absorbs so much complexity that in itself becomes a problem

Designers that work on avionics (both hardware and software components) will not always be there and once you have large chucks of complex legacy code in the design, which was signed off earlier, then no one really wants to fiddle with it (and end up taking the blame if something goes wrong afterwards) at this stage when you will get problems that no one will fully own and as a result no one will fully solve them!

I have worked with complex systems. It can be a nightmare when you have interconnected software/hardware modules. Any change in one functionality can have serious impact on other parts or functionality.

I can only speculate about the level of complexities involved in an aircraft like F-22. Its gotta be pretty intense.

 

[VCheng]

................
I got 4 yrs on the FB-111A/D/E/EF, 6 yrs on the F-16A/B/C/D up to block 30, I pulled a short duty with the USAF Systems Command (Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio), specifically with Foreign Technology Division, dissecting, testing, (re)building, and operating Soviet avionics up to the point when the USSR collapsed, then nearly 8 yrs in civilian life in avionics between flight controls and radar where I used to design field tests on low altitude radar detection of low altitude subsonic targets, in both over land and water at the time when a 'laptop' was an expensive luxury and had to rely on TI calculators to crunch data.
..................

Naah, we are not impressed with that.

 

[Norboo]

Must be a software issue. As always.

The F22 has been plagued by these kinds of reliability issues for quite sometime. I guess that maybe one reason why it hasn't been pressed into frontline service. Too cost, too unreliable probably.

Hence why I consider F22 to be more of a showpiece than anything else. Maybe that is an overstatement, but what would you call a 200 million USD jet that is never pressed into active duty only to crash every once in a while. I mean it has the highest accident rate of any USAF aircraft in service.

The F-35 is even worse! It's a disaster! So what have the Americans got to pit against the forthcoming T-50 PAK FA? Nix!

 

[Esc8781]

The F-35 is even worse! It's a disaster! So what have the Americans got to pit against the forthcoming T-50 PAK FA? Nix!

Like what is the problem with JSF? The program is ahead of schedule.On topic, the crash might more likely be pilot error. More than the oxygen system.

 

[SQ8]

The comments on the weaknesses of the F-22 are pretty similar to the panic roar that began when early F-16's would crash..
Even the F-15 has its early losses, that's because pilots were finally pushing the envelope in the jet..and new pilots.
But a 104-0 for the F-15.. and a similar record for the F-16..
add to that the thousands of flawless sorties flown, a safety and availability record that no eastern jet has matched ..
Id keep my faith in the Raptor being fairly similar.
The only reason the effect is felt more is because there are so few of them.

 

[VCheng]

The comments on the weaknesses of the F-22 are pretty similar to the panic roar that began when early F-16's would crash..
Even the F-15 has its early losses, that's because pilots were finally pushing the envelope in the jet..and new pilots.
But a 104-0 for the F-15.. and a similar record for the F-16..
add to that the thousands of flawless sorties flown, a safety and availability record that no eastern jet has matched ..
Id keep my faith in the Raptor being fairly similar.
The only reason the effect is felt more is because there are so few of them.

It is not easy being the technology leader as your post shows. But then again, the rewards are commensurate as well. The F-22, despite its teething problems, undoubtedly will ensure overwhelming dominance of the skies by USA for decades to come, until it too is replaced by the next generation of technology, whatever and whenever it might be.

 

[Wickerman]

You have been playing fast and loose with your interpretations based upon facts. Typical of those who have no military experience, let alone military aviation experience.

I have not been claiming anything as fact! I have only been doing an extrapolation based on what I see, logically, as much as possible,

Amazon.com: How to Lie with Statistics (9780393310726): Darrell Huff, Irving Geis: Books

...Just in case you have no education even in basic statistics.

What statistics have I been using to lie about stuff? You might need a book in reading comprehension. Search Amazon, you are good at it, I am sure you will find one.

I got 4 yrs on the FB-111A/D/E/EF, 6 yrs on the F-16A/B/C/D up to block 30, I pulled a short duty with the USAF Systems Command (Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio), specifically with Foreign Technology Division, dissecting, testing, (re)building, and operating Soviet avionics up to the point when the USSR collapsed, then nearly 8 yrs in civilian life in avionics between flight controls and radar where I used to design field tests on low altitude radar detection of low altitude subsonic targets, in both over land and water at the time when a 'laptop' was an expensive luxury and had to rely on TI calculators to crunch data.

So yeah...I think I have enough background to call your criticism bullsh1t.

Good, so you can comment on FB 111A/D/E/F,F16 up to block 30 and other stuff that you have worked on.

You have however NOT worked on the F22. Hence your opinion on this one is at best as good as mine. Note: I am not talking about your experience with avionics and such, I am talking about the reliability or the issues of the F22 as a combat platform.

I call it as I see it, and I believe results speak for themselves. The F22 has not delivered anything apart from being a nice showcase piece. Till Date.

 

[Tshering22]

Good to know that the pilot is safe.

The jet can be replaced, the pilot cannot.

It is always the warrior that counts; not the machine alone.

 

[Imran Khan]

so many computers with wndows XP on raptor anytime can be hanged

 

[conworldus]

I got 4 yrs on the FB-111A/D/E/EF, 6 yrs on the F-16A/B/C/D up to block 30, I pulled a short duty with the USAF Systems Command (Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio), specifically with Foreign Technology Division, dissecting, testing, (re)building, and operating Soviet avionics up to the point when the USSR collapsed, then nearly 8 yrs in civilian life in avionics between flight controls and radar where I used to design field tests on low altitude radar detection of low altitude subsonic targets, in both over land and water at the time when a 'laptop' was an expensive luxury and had to rely on TI calculators to crunch data.

So yeah...I think I have enough background to call your criticism bullsh1t.

Doing what, exactly?

 

[SQ8]

Doing what, exactly?

I think its pretty clear, if he was an enlisted.. then he was a tech sergeant.

 

[Pfpilot]

I got 4 yrs on the FB-111A/D/E/EF, 6 yrs on the F-16A/B/C/D up to block 30, I pulled a short duty with the USAF Systems Command (Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio), specifically with Foreign Technology Division, dissecting, testing, (re)building, and operating Soviet avionics up to the point when the USSR collapsed, then nearly 8 yrs in civilian life in avionics between flight controls and radar where I used to design field tests on low altitude radar detection of low altitude subsonic targets, in both over land and water at the time when a 'laptop' was an expensive luxury and had to rely on TI calculators to crunch data.

Maybe you aren't allowed to say, but it's worth asking. Were you involved with the Red Eagles or Red Hats during your time with FTD?

 

[HongWu]

Clearly F-22 combined too many novel technologies that was not perfected when the design was finalized. That's why it is unreliable. F-22 might be grounded forever to save pilot lives. Good thing the F-35 is ready to take its place.

 

[VCheng]

Clearly F-22 combined too many novel technologies that was not perfected when the design was finalized. That's why it is unreliable. F-22 might be grounded forever to save pilot lives. Good thing the F-35 is ready to take its place.

You can only wish. Whatever the cause of the accident, it will be investigated and fixed. The F-22 will rule the skies for several decades.