F-16s to India

[Energon]

Why are you loosing the chance to buy Su34 or mig35, generation higher than their predessor.

Su-34 is primarily a heavy class strike platform which as far as I know does not meet the requirement of the IAF. The Mig35 on the other hand is a MRCA and I've adressed this issue on numerous prior posts which I suggest you take the time out to actually understand.

BTW, you seemed confused, when you are shooting out of context. Go read history, it may help you.

You are in need of heeding your own advice a whole lot more than me.

 

[blain2]

Most of the F-16 users have used this platform for quiet some time now and have invested copious sums of money in establishing a sizable infrastructure to service the aircraft. For these forces sticking with a reliable and mature platform is certainly a very cost effective option. This however is not the case for India. They would have to make that initial investment to establish groundwork for a platform for whom they will more than likely be the last customer. However, there are also many advantages to this. First, the per unit cost is bound to be lower, the level of ToT will be a lot higher, procurements of parts will never be a problem given the number of units available for catabolysis. Likewise with the ability to produce so much of this jet, the LM venture in India can also make some profit by helping others keep their F-16s airborne through affordable aftermarket services.

The US Navy will order more F-18 E/F and EA-18 Growlers until all the problems with the JSF-Cs are sorted out, and that may take a while.

I am sure you are aware that E/A-18 Growler is not the same thing as the Super Hornet as it has just been cleared for service in the past year and caters to an entirely different requirement than the MR Super Hornet. Secondly, Super Hornet as I have mentioned above is in the same situation as the F-16 blk-52/60. At the tail end of production life cycle. If the USN places additional orders, it would be for attrition and not fleet enhancements. JSF is the future for USN aviation and as is the case with F-16s, F/A-18s in the USN service would tag along for as long as they can be supported.

So for IAF, F-16s and F/A-18s are both in a pretty similar situation with regards to where they are in their life cycle.

They would have to make that initial investment to establish groundwork for a platform for whom they will more than likely be the last customer. However, there are also many advantages to this. First, the per unit cost is bound to be lower, the level of ToT will be a lot higher, procurements of parts will never be a problem given the number of units available for catabolysis.

This is an assertion contrary to the norm. The initial investment increases the unit cost manifold.
This has been the case for every AF inducting a new platform. Again the point about ToT is debatable as we really do not know what is on offer. If its assembly etc. then qualitatively it does not change things much.
Also the point about procurement of parts is misleading. If you assemble aircraft locally then it is not the same thing as manufacturing and developing the parts locally. For an aircraft like the Viper or Super Hornet, you would still have to rely on the supply chain extended to you by the OEM. So parts can still become an issue (although a lesser one than what the IAF has to deal with on the Russian side).

I can give you an example of what India can at best have for the F-16 or the F/A-18. It would be similar to the setup that TUSAS have for the F-16 assembly, depot level maintenance and MLU. However even then, the MLU kits come from the US. So the talk of taking *entire* production line (or what you term as LM Venture) over to India has a lot of loopholes in it.

 

[Quwa]

Personally I think the PAF is in a much better position from a technical and logistical standpoint to induct any new F-16 variant. The basic Block-52+ frame is common for all new variants - except there would be variation in avionics, engine, radar, etc. The ACM himself said that if a new requirement was strung up...of all available options, the PAF would go for Block-60.

Another note...if somehow F-16 is included in MRCA, then it puts PAF in two relatively good positios to counter it; 1) a Block-60 equivalent, 2) FC-20.

 

[malikmohsin]

hi
paksitan recive 6 more jf-17 recive

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

In this context AN is also confusing the F-16 from 1979 with F-16 C/D of present day.
MKI cannot hold a minute against any F-16, with BVR.
BTW, you seemed confused, when you are shooting out of context. Go read history, it may help you.

Can you substantiate your claim that MKI cannot hold a minute against any f16, with BVR, or is it a mere one line flame bait

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Gentlemen, correct me if I am wrong---F 16 is at the end of its line---so is F 18, Mig 29 ( new version is Mig 35 ) and Mirage 2000 are maxed out as well and F 15 was out of the picture also---what india wants it may not get---then where does it all leave the IAF---back into the comfort and warmth of mother russia---that is the million dollar question---will india opt for the last batch coming out of the production line---is it ironic or what!

 

[JEFF]

Hi,

Gentlemen, correct me if I am wrong---F 16 is at the end of its line

Even if it is at the end of the line doesn't mean it can't itself in front of EF,Rafale, MKI etc. US had innovated this plane F-16, which was made well ahead of timeline.

---so is F 18,

Nope, USN is still orderning more and more F-18, and hence it is prominent containder of MRCA as more USN order can assure of smooth supply of spares.

Still many countries in the world have no creadible answer to F-18 and F-16, countries like china and India have yet to develop such catagories of planes.

Mig 29 ( new version is Mig 35 )

Well past of the Mig-29 wasn't too fantastic but still russians have manage to incorporate some features of fifth generation of Plane into it and tranforming into lethal beast.

and Mirage 2000 are maxed out as well

But if it is incorporated with avionics and all other components of Rafale then it is still can give an knock out blow. Shutting down of production line of Mirage doesn't mean it can't hold its own. If MRCA wasn't subjected to political decision then it may have become the part of IAF of much before since it is favourite of IAF and it was loosed to MKI only because of its price.

and F 15 was out of the picture also---

There is not even need to bring it in picture since it is contexting for MRCA.

what india wants it may not get---

But current offering that has been made by all contender are way exceeding the user requirements of IAF.

then where does it all leave the IAF---

May be Rafale, Eurofighter or F/A-18EF

back into the comfort and warmth of mother russia---

This time russian have assured themselves that they can't win this time even after enticing to India of providing of invaluable secrets of aviation technology.

that is the million dollar question---will india opt for the last batch coming out of the production line---is it ironic or what!

Whatever!

 

[EagleEyes]

JEFF,

Do "whatever" some where else. I assure you this is not the place to do it.

Rest is what every Indian has been saying and old.

Thanks.

 

[MastanKhan]

Jeff,

Thankyou for your cut, paste and post answer. But it still doesnot answer the question---all these planes are extremely potent now and for the next 5 to ten years---but spending the money that india wants to and the numbers involved---the new planes would be in service for another thirty five 35 years---by the end of the next ten years---these planes will not hold an edge---.

Now F 16 is a wonderful plane----but this plane has seen the last of its upgrades---no more upgraded versions---for all practical purposes this is the end of the line for F 16. On the other hand Rafael has still to get its first MLU.

Even though F 18 wants to have more orders---I don't think they are acoming by the navy---it is the end of line for F 18 as well---boeing wants to produce some more real bad---.

Is potent and deadly now, what india is looking for in its planes---these deadly and potent planes now won't be delivered to india for at least the next 3 to 4 years if they sign the contract now.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

MK:

But even considering the service lives of these planes, I don't see how India is at a disadvantage.

Threat perceptions vary for every nation - for India it remains China and Pakistan. China may be developing a fifth generation aircraft, but its J-10 is still not quite up to the 4.5+ generation AC form the West.

Given Chinese technological advancement is not going to remain static, but even then the J-10 might come up to the level of the 4.5+gen. MRCA, around the time India is inducting them. At that point, when the J-10 is just maturing, one can expect that it would be unreasonable to expect the 5th Gen. AC from China to be anywhere close to completion - so both India and China will have AC that are qualitatively comparable, and will remain in service for approximately the same amount of time.

 

[JEFF]

Jeff,

Thankyou for your cut, paste and post answer. But it still doesnot answer the question---

The way you had questioned me, I think it was extremely valid the way I had answered.

all these planes are extremely potent now and for the next 5 to ten years---but spending the money that india wants to and the numbers involved---the new planes would be in service for another thirty five 35 years---by the end of the next ten years---these planes will not hold an edge---.

How does they can't hold an edge?

Is there any rivel for AESA like APG-80 and avionics that is fitted on F-16IN?

Is there any rivel for AESA like APG-79 and avionics that is fitted on F/A-18EF?

Is there any rivel for BVR missile that is fitted on this fighter planes?


Is there any rivel for avionics, BVR suite, AESA radar that has to be fitted on EF and Rafale?


Who is gona challenge them in near future? I guess only Russia and China have that metal but still they are no where nearer in terms of avionics, AESA radar, BVR missile that is being fitted on this MRCA other then Mig-35 which is still in its introductory stage.

Have any of these countries(Russia, China) have any design for AESA, BVR or avionics for the beyond the ten years that will challenged something like APG-80, APG-79, their top performance all new engines?

To some extent Russia can outrun them in some department as far as their legacy of aviation industry is concerned but china still is noway nearer to them.

Now F 16 is a wonderful plane----but this plane has seen the last of its upgrades---no more upgraded versions---for all practical purposes this is the end of the line for F 16.

How can you say that no more upgrades?

When F-16 was first placed for shortlisting of MRCA during Aero India 2007 was somewhere nearer to block 52 or Block 60, then many peoples including me or you believed that F-16s are now at the end of their life upgrade and hence they may not see any upgrade by now and hence there may be very slim of possiblities of their upgrades if India selected. But LM came and stunned every one of us on previous year by unleashing F-16IN Block 70 which is quite similar and nearer to F-16XL in terms of technology. Then MK how can you says that it will see no more upgrade? especially when LM stunned the world by unleashing one of the most deadlist F-16 ever made.

On the other hand Rafael has still to get its first MLU.

But even without MLU, it is still regarded as 4.5 generation fighter plane and just think if it is gona through the any radical upgrade then its upto you to decide. And who cares about MLU, just look at the MKI, when it was introduce it was regarded as any other ordinory russian junk like Mig-29 but India and severl other countries joined hands and turned it into potent machine that even made westerners to think twice before fielding anything less then 4.5 generation fighter against it. Then I can assure you that if it is ever selected then you would see from MKI experience, how we can turn it into lethal beast.

Even though F 18 wants to have more orders---I don't think they are acoming by the navy---it is the end of line for F 18 as well---boeing wants to produce some more real bad---.

There are already planning of USN to use it for next 30 years to come and according to boeing website USN gona purchase atleast minimum of 460 more F/A-18EF through 2012, so atleast normal useful life of this SH's should be more then 30years and hence my previous claim about SH hold emmense validity.

Is potent and deadly now, what india is looking for in its planes---these deadly and potent planes now won't be delivered to india for at least the next 3 to 4 years if they sign the contract now.

Yes they wont delivered according India's recent history of defence purchases is concerned. But this is because of this similar delay that we have got to see more and more sophistecated AESA like APG-80 and APG-79 and hence I can even here assure you that even after delays you got see more and more advanced stuff that is in offer from US and Europe as well as Russians.