F-16 Thread

[Munir]

The F16's are just to get technology input. How else would you explain that Fc1 has a cockpit that has all the technologies that latest cockpits have? Pakistani engineers and pilots did test western pilots and asked China to change Fc1. I doubt that Pakistna will rely 100% on western material. If it does then it has to read its history again. It is pretty clear that US is only offering cause there is more on the marjet. Otherwise the 18 cd will be parked on the tarmac in the US and Pak would have to pay parking fee... With Fc1 and BVR the F16 is not special anymore. With J10 the list will get bigger.

 

[Elite-Pilot]

Does anyone know if they used F-16 A/B's have gone through MLU or are they going to go through MLU in Pakistan??

 

[Owais]

Does anyone know if they used F-16 A/B's have gone through MLU or are they going to go through MLU in Pakistan??

pakistan will perform MLU by the end of this year.:thumbsup:

With Fc1 and BVR the F16 is not special anymore

totally no!
F16 with F10 will act as a frontline, airsuperiority fighters. they will also use for bombing role due to high payload. as far as JF17 is concern,no one know much about avionics installed in it.so lets wait till the 4rth proto type has been tested.

 

[RAPTOR]

correction its 18 new C/D model's with an option of 18 more not thats simply lame if there was ever a chance to get a handsome amont of new F-16's this was it yes buying J-10 is a good decision on PAF's account but anyways PAF knows whats best for it....

PAF needs as many F-16s it can get its hands on. I just dont understand the delays and whatnot. PAF cannot fight against the IAF for even an hour! and yet they are still bickering about how many F-16s to buy. Better get them on Pakistani soil before 2008 thats all im sayin.

 

[RAPTOR]

oh yeah and if in the 1980's PAF would have bought the Mirage2000 along side the F-16.........india could never have aquired it and PAF wouldnt be in such a pathetic position throughout the 90's.

India got the Mirage2000 through a Pakistani named Assef Ali and the deal was brokered through the BCCI. He then diverted24 Mirage llls from Peru to Pakistan. The Australian Mirages were also sold to Pakistan through this same fellow.

 

[melb4aust]

oh yeah and if in the 1980's PAF would have bought the Mirage2000 along side the F-16.........india could never have aquired it and PAF wouldnt be in such a pathetic position throughout the 90's.

India got the Mirage2000 through a Pakistani named Assef Ali and the deal was brokered through the BCCI. He then diverted24 Mirage llls from Peru to Pakistan. The Australian Mirages were also sold to Pakistan through this same fellow.

Could you provide any source or link to that info, seems interesting, though still needs to confirm this.

Last night on an indian resturant i was reading an indian magazine, that india is going to retire about 500 of its aircrafts mainly mig21's, mig23's and mig27's by 2008 ( Because of recent incident of 200 pilots who gave up their job in the airforce ). They almost have 39.5 squadrons at the moment which is exactly what indian force need. But after retiring those 500 AC's that figure will reach up to 32 squadrons.

Each squadron comprises 20 AC's. They have also increased the production rate of SU-30 almost 13-14 AC's per year. One of their Airforce military personel said that indian airforce believe on the quantity rather than the quality, but another spokesman said that Indian airforce has done well to induct SU-30, because 1 SU-30 can do the job of 5 Mig21's or mig23's. There was also written it is unlikely that Dissault is going to offer Mirage4000 to indian airforce again, because they are taking too long to make decision, and they cant keep on continuing the production just for them. In the past Indian's took almost 14 yrs to decide to induct training AC, is also one of the reason Dissault have lost confidence on them.

 

[RAPTOR]

Could you provide any source or link to that info, seems interesting, though still needs to confirm this.

Last night on an indian resturant i was reading an indian magazine, that india is going to retire about 500 of its aircrafts mainly mig21's, mig23's and mig27's by 2008 ( Because of recent incident of 200 pilots who gave up their job in the airforce ). They almost have 39.5 squadrons at the moment which is exactly what indian force need. But after retiring those 500 AC's that figure will reach up to 32 squadrons.

Each squadron comprises 20 AC's. They have also increased the production rate of SU-30 almost 13-14 AC's per year. One of their Airforce military personel said that indian airforce believe on the quantity rather than the quality, but another spokesman said that Indian airforce has done well to induct SU-30, because 1 SU-30 can do the job of 5 Mig21's or mig23's. There was also written it is unlikely that Dissault is going to offer Mirage4000 to indian airforce again, because they are taking too long to make decision, and they cant keep on continuing the production just for them. In the past Indian's took almost 14 yrs to decide to induct training AC, is also one of the reason Dissault have lost confidence on them.

are you an indian?


The Mirage 4000 was developed for Saudi Arabia in the early 80's by Dassault. They refused it and bought the F-15 instead.

 

[Neo]

oh yeah and if in the 1980's PAF would have bought the Mirage2000 along side the F-16.........india could never have aquired it and PAF wouldnt be in such a pathetic position throughout the 90's.

India got the Mirage2000 through a Pakistani named Assef Ali and the deal was brokered through the BCCI. He then diverted24 Mirage llls from Peru to Pakistan. The Australian Mirages were also sold to Pakistan through this same fellow.

Pakistan didn't have much choice back then raptor.
After the Sovjet invasion in Afghanistan, US temporarily waived senctions and provided a $3.2 billion aid package which ofcourse had to be spent on US made weapons.
Pakistan simply lacked funds to buy Mirage 2000 which same in to the market from 1982 at much higher price.
With a $50-60 billion economy, operating two different types was simply not an option.

 

[Neo]

The Mirage 4000 was developed for Saudi Arabia in the early 80's by Dassault. They refused it and bought the F-15 instead.

to my knowledge, the Mirage 4000 was developped as a technology demonstrator, much of the technology is used for upgraded versions of Mirage 2000 and even the Rafale.
Before buying the F-15, Saudi's ordered the Panavia Tornado, both IDS and ADV versions.

 

[Neo]

Mel, what magazine was that, could you please post a scanned copy or provide a link if its avaiable on the net?
Thanks!

 

[RAPTOR]

Pakistan didn't have much choice back then raptor.
After the Sovjet invasion in Afghanistan, US temporarily waived senctions and provided a $3.2 billion aid package which ofcourse had to be spent on US made weapons.
Pakistan simply lacked funds to buy Mirage 2000 which same in to the market from 1982 at much higher price.
With a $50-60 billion economy, operating two different types was simply not an option.

I'd have to disagre with you on that one. The economy was good and The Mirage 2000 was actively considered, but due to the bickering in PAF against operating 2 different types of frontline fighters. Think about it....Pakistan was asking for 4 Sentry AWACS to guard the western borders.....but it was offered 7 E2 Hawkeyes. In addition to the $3.2 billion USAID package.......BILLIONS more were flowing in from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait. Add to that the CIA funding for the Afghan war that was unaccounted for.I mean in 1988, Pakistan ordered 78 more F-16s from the US.

Add to this....the Billions spent on the Nuclear Program and Missile programs.

Pakistan lacked funds in the 80's.......I dont think so.

 

[RAPTOR]

to my knowledge, the Mirage 4000 was developped as a technology demonstrator, much of the technology is used for upgraded versions of Mirage 2000 and even the Rafale.
Before buying the F-15, Saudi's ordered the Panavia Tornado, both IDS and ADV versions.

The F-15s were purchased in 83. The Tornados were ordered much later on.

 

[Neo]

The F-15s were purchased in 83. The Tornados were ordered much later on.

I stand corrected!
Thanks!

 

[Neo]

I'd have to disagre with you on that one. The economy was good and The Mirage 2000 was actively considered, but due to the bickering in PAF against operating 2 different types of frontline fighters. Think about it....Pakistan was asking for 4 Sentry AWACS to guard the western borders.....but it was offered 7 E2 Hawkeyes. In addition to the $3.2 billion USAID package.......BILLIONS more were flowing in from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait. Add to that the CIA funding for the Afghan war that was unaccounted for.I mean in 1988, Pakistan ordered 78 more F-16s from the US.

Add to this....the Billions spent on the Nuclear Program and Missile programs.

Pakistan lacked funds in the 80's.......I dont think so.

I'm well aware of financial aid from the ME, its common knowledge that first batch of 6 F-16's was funded with Saudi money.
PAF did ask for the E-3A Sentury AWACS but could you provide a source about E-2C being offered?
We would have taken anything at that time, seems unlogic to me that PAF would reject it!

Back in the eighties, high military expenditures were already a burden on our treasury, buyimg two different types simultaniously would not be the problem but the high operational costs would cripple the economy and minimised the purchse of new spares and subsystems for existing fleet.
Pak economy grew rapidly once the USAID started to pour into the sountry, as result we ordered 71 F-16's in 1988.

 

[RAPTOR]

to my knowledge, the Mirage 4000 was developped as a technology demonstrator, much of the technology is used for upgraded versions of Mirage 2000 and even the Rafale.
Before buying the F-15, Saudi's ordered the Panavia Tornado, both IDS and ADV versions.

Neo, i dont know how far your knowledge goes about Aircraft, but the Saudis ordered 91 F-15s in 1978. They got a lesser number but nonetheless, the Tornados were ordered AFTER the first gulf war. The Saudis then ordered 72 more F-15S in 1992, which were slightly downgraded than the ones Israel ordered.
Here is an article you might find informative...:thumbsup:

Saudi Saber Rattling By Michael Knights
October 30, 2003

By deploying F-15 strike aircraft to a northwestern airbase in March 2003 and holding large combined-arms exercises near the Gulf of Aqaba in mid-October, Saudi Arabia has indicated its desire to act more freely in asserting its territorial sovereignty vis-à-vis Israel. These actions -- which Washington and Riyadh might previously have attempted to restrain -- are visible symptoms of the scaling back of U.S.-Saudi military-to-military ties. Although Riyadh's decision to alter longstanding tacit agreements regarding the posture of Saudi forces will not significantly affect the regional military balance, such a move may make Washington more reluctant to offer future arms sales and military support to the kingdom.
Background
In 1978, Carter administration plans to sell ninety-one F-15C/D strike aircraft to Saudi Arabia sparked a bitter debate. In May of that year, the sale was approved by Congress in a narrow 54-to-44 vote, and only after Riyadh accepted restrictions that limited its ability to deploy the aircraft against Israel. Specifically, the aircraft were not to be equipped with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs), preventing them from carrying extra fuel and a full weapons load simultaneously. Riyadh also agreed to refrain from basing the aircraft at the northwestern Tabuk airbase, some 150 kilometers from Israel. In 1992, sales of seventy-two even more advanced F-15S aircraft were placed under the same restrictions; in addition, the tactical early warning suite carried by these aircraft was downgraded to reduce its potential effectiveness against Israeli missiles.
The record of implementation for these restrictions, however, is poor. In 1981, the first shipment of F-15C/Ds to Saudi Arabia did in fact include a small number of CFTs. That same year witnessed the controversial sale of AWACS command and control aircraft to Riyadh, which Congress authorized by an even narrower 52-to-48 vote. In the mid-1990s, the Saudi F-15S fleet was further augmented by sales of special CFTs with weapons hardpoints, allowing the aircraft to carry more weapons at longer ranges. Therefore, when the kingdom deployed fifty F-15Ss to Tabuk airbase in March 2003, it neutralized the final safeguard of Israel's strategic depth and contravened a restriction that had been placed on F-15 sales since 1978.
Saudi Saber Rattling
Ostensibly, the Saudi F-15s were moved to Tabuk in order to provide air cover for U.S. special forces being launched into Iraq's western desert from the northwestern corner of Saudi Arabia. Given its reliance on Saudi basing, U.S. Central Command agreed to a temporary move. Since the war, however, Riyadh has resisted both U.S. and Israeli pressure to remove the aircraft from Tabuk. In mid-October, the kingdom exacerbated the growing tension by undertaking a long-planned series of combined-arms exercises in the Red Sea near the Gulf of Aqaba.
Riyadh's decision to move the F-15s to Tabuk in the first place was a purely political gesture -- an expression of independence and reclamation of sovereign territory. Nevertheless, the aircraft are unlikely to remain at the airbase indefinitely. Although Tabuk has excellent wartime facilities, it is not a dedicated F-15 base in terms of hardened aircraft shelters, hangers, and other support infrastructure. Tabuk is also one of the least hospitable and most remote basing locations in the kingdom. Moreover, the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) has traditionally preferred to use Saudi Arabia's own strategic depth to protect its valuable F-15 fleet from the possibility of Israeli preemptive strikes. As a result, the F-15s will probably be moved back to their main operating bases at Dhahran, Khamis Mushayt, Riyadh, and Taif as soon as political attention to the issue recedes.


http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=1680