What's new

F-16 Block 52 vs Mirage 2000-5 Mk2

IMO Mirage-2K5 will never be used for air superiority missions as we have better alternatives in the form of Upgraded Mig-29s and MKIs. Mirages will do what they can do better i.e Ground missions and this upgrade will pretty much make them independent during that as they can save their a$$ and at the same time do their ground missions more efficiently.
 
.
Even our JF-17s with SD-10A will be able to handle IAF's upgraded M2ks as their updated KLJ-7 is on par or better then RC-400 (which Indians claim is RDY-3) specially in air to air mode.
Yeah keep dreaming that with MICA No one can match m2k in subcontinent in BVR engagements better asked experts

MICA with TVC has turn rate of withstanding 50g+ how many Bvraam can to that ??


The mica is a very versatile missile as both versions are capable of extreme maneuvering at close range thanks to the TVC and, at the same time, able of medium range BVR engagements thanks to a very high velocity/acceleration (mach 4 reached in the few seconds), and data link.
 
Last edited:
.
IMO Mirage-2K5 will never be used for air superiority missions as we have better alternatives in the form of Upgraded Mig-29s and MKIs. Mirages will do what they can do better i.e Ground missions and this upgrade will pretty much make them independent during that as they can save their a$$ and at the same time do their ground missions more efficiently.
That doesn't mean it cannot do that role if situation arises

Here is guy claiming that super duper Jf-17 is enough to handle all New Upgrade m2k with Ease you can only Pity on the level of their denialibility.
 
.
That doesn't mean it cannot do that role if situation arises

Here is guy claiming that super duper Jf-17 is enough to handle all New Upgrade m2k with Ease you can only Pity on the level of their denialibility.

It is no match for Mirage 2000 I.

May be Jf 17 block 3 will be on par with them, block 1 and 2 dont stand chance.

@Chanakya's_Chant

IAF 's Mirage 2000 after upgradation has become very formidable

1 RDY 3

2 ICMS MK 4 which is the most advance EW suite in the Mirage 2000 series

3 MDPU which is the same as in Rafale

4 MICA missiles

5 Snecma M 53 P 3 which has higher thrust than P2 model

How much thrust it has?
 
. . .
According to wiki trust is 64 kn for P 2 while wet thrust is 95 KN.

The 54 kn figure is for M 53-5.

I have posted the official link http://www.dassault-aviation.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2012/08/Engage_02.pdf

Since our Indian Mirages were old they must be using M53 -5

Wikipedia ALSO says that M53-5 was used in the initial models and P2/ P3 in the later and upgraded models

Anyway a price of 40 Million a plane must be having a whole lot of changes including the engine
 
.
. .
Yep the dry and wet thrusts 're 64KN and 95KN respectively(according to specifications). The greater dry thrust means a reduction in time to climb which in this case would touch 285m/s, if am not wrong. :)

So Miage 2000 I is equipped with M 53 P 2 or M 53 P 3?
 
.
MIRAGE 2000 SHOOT DOWN A TURKISH F-16


Mirage 2000-5

By the late 1980s, the Mirage 2000 was beginning to age compared with the latest models of U.S. F-16 fighters, so Thomson-CSF began work on a privately funded update of the Mirage 2000C which was to be named the Mirage 2000-5. A two-seat Mirage 2000B prototype was extensively modified as the first Mirage 2000-5 prototype, and it first flew on October 24, 1990. A Mirage 2000C prototype was also reworked to a similar standard, making its initial flight on April 27, 1991. The production aircraft entered operational service in 1997.[13] A two-seat version was developed as well, whose rear seat has a HUD but not an associated head-level display and lacks a built-in cannon, although cannon pods can be carried.

Improvements included the Thales TV/CT CLDP laser designator pod as well as the Thales multimode RDY (Radar Doppler Multitarget), which allows detection of up to 24 targets and the ability to simultaneously track eight threats while guiding four MICA missiles to different targets. Updates to defensive systems included the ICMS 2 countermeasures suite and the Samir DDM missile warning system. ICMS 2 incorporates a receiver and associated signal processing system in the nose for detecting hostile missile command data links, and can be interfaced to a new programmable mission-planning and post-mission analysis ground system. Avionics were also updated, using a new Night vision-compatible glass cockpit layout borrowed from the Rafale, a dual-linked wide-angle Head-up display, and HOTAS controls. The Mirage 2000-5 can also carry the oversized drop tanks developed for the Mirage 2000N, greatly extending its range.

In 1993, the AdA decided to upgrade 37 of their existing Mirage 2000s to the 2000-5 specification as a stopgap before the arrival of the Rafale in AdA service. The upgraded aircraft were redesignated Mirage 2000-5F, and became operational in 2000. They retained the old countermeasures system with the Serval/Sabre/Spirale units and did not receive the ICMS 2 system. The AdA is now considering upgrades for the type, including the MIDS datalink, MICA IR support, and the Thales Topsight helmet-mounted display and sighting system.



Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2

Dassault further improved the Mirage 2000-5, creating the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2 which is currently the most advanced variant of the Mirage 2000. Enhancements to offensive systems included a datalink for the targeting of MICA ER missiles, the addition of the Damocles FLIR targeting pod, and a newer, stealthier Thales RDY-2 all-weather synthetic aperture radar with moving target indicator capability, which also grants the aircraft improved air-to-ground capability. The avionics were further updated with higher resolution color displays, an optional Topsight helmet-mounted display, and the addition of the Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) designed for the Rafale. A new Thales Totem 3000 inertial navigation system with ring laser gyroscope and GPS capability was added, providing much greater accuracy, higher reliability, and shorter alignment time than the older ULISS 52 navigation system which it replaced. Other upgrades included the addition of an on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) for the pilot and an ICMS 3 digital countermeasures suite.

Further planned upgrades will include Thales AIDA visual identification pod, a GPS receiver, MIDS datalink, new long-range sensors, and the Topsight E helmet-mounted display. Other technology developed for the Rafale will also be integrated into the Mirage 2000, including infrared and optical sensors for IFF and targeting.


Well it all depends what Pakistan can get cleared for and what India buys. Both planes can conduct the same roles.

SCALP EGs and APACHEs are rather expensive per shot but are important for taking out runways from a safe distance and hitting C3 sites for a long distance. I don't know how many India will buy if any. Yet Qatar had 48 or so APACHEs in service so it would be silly not to pick at least those up and put them into service. They would be sure to get the MICA EM and it seems fit the Python Mk.4 onto the planes. The AASM is not in service yet with the ADA but will be in the next few years giving a customer the option of a GPS/IR guided bomb.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s ICMS Mk.III ECM system is touted as being able to jam the SA-10/SA-11/SA-15/SA-20 as well as the AIM-120 (we'll have to find out one day
wink.gif
). Even the ICMS Mk.II on the Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDAs should be more then able to handle most Pakistan ground and most airbased radars. The Mirage 2000EH/DHs don't have the same ECM systems. If they shell out more money they could fit the IMEWS which offers a SEAD capability of sorts. If India throws out money the M-53 PX3 is around which boosts thrust by 15 percent, just needs some funding.

Pakistan could be put over the hump as it is rather doubtful they would ever be cleared for the JDAM, JASSM or any of the new "J" weapons. I could see them getting AIM-120s, GBUs, LDPs and such but nothing overly offensive like the AGM-88. I don't know if they would get cleared for the AIM-9X either. No idea on the ECM suite they will be cleared for either.

India would have a fleet numbers edge with 45 Mirage 2000EH/DHs (RDM-4/7), 12 Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDA (RDY-1) and 126 Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (RDY-2). If all are brought to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (173ish) model that would give them the most powerful M2K fleet around. Pakistan should get up to 60-70 (number being thrown around but could be less) F-16C/D Block 52s and still have the 28 F-16A/B B-15s (which couldbe brought up to MLU). That's a sizeable edge in the numbers. Those numbers give them an edge in deployment.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 costs a lot more and Pakistan will more then likely get their F-16s for free. Niether nation has the pilot market cornered. And the planes have differences that each side would try and exploit. But being the attcker would be both good and bad, good because they know when they are to attack and bad because some would more then likely have bombs. Granted with 5-6 MICA EM/IRs a Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 could quickly turn and engage the enemy. Fighting would be rather close.

Granted I could not see Indian pilots wanting to fly low due to the fact Pakistan lacks decent high alt SAMs but has scores of MANPADs. The bigger investment in guided weapons shows they do want to stay out of range of MANPADs and "trashfire". The HQ-2 (SA-2) would be easily jammed by the ICMS Mk.II much less the Mk.III hell moving around with limited ECM is actually good enough for those.

Some specs about Mirage2000-5 MK2

1. It can carry a max. external load of 6300 kg and a fuel load of 4000 kg

2. While earlier Mirage 2k's have two mission computers, one main and one standby, the Mirage2000-5 MK2 has a single central Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) and one Symbol Generator Unit(SGU).It operates all the systems, such as cockpit,HMD,radio communications and navigation equipment, GPS/INS,Digital recon pod etc etc.This same MDPU is based on that of the Rafale.

3.It has a large Digital EW system which is mounted fully internally.

4.It has an anolog FBW .(troung whats the difference between analog and digital FBW?)

5.The highly accurate Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS with embedded GPS has a terrain following capability.It incorporates a Digital Terrain system.

6. Now the Best part. The Thales RDY 2 multi mode radar gives the pilot an outstanding detection and tracking ranges.its muli target capabilities permit upto 24 targets to be displayed,out of which 8 can be tracked and four can be simultaneously attacked.

7. M2k-5-MK2's internally mounted integrated counter measures systems(ICMS) and electronic warfare suite(EW) can defeat all known threats and helps survive over any hostile battlefield.It carries a powerful jammer as well as chaff/flare dispensers.

8. It is powered by Snecma M53 P2.

9. It can fire both Mica EM and IR both which are fire and forget missiles and also carries a IRST.

10. These missiles can also be carried on the under-fuselage attachment points thereby freeing the wing points to carry more fuel. the missiles fitted under these attachment points are ejected and then ignited once away from the aircraft fuselage.
cool.gif


11.In Air to ground role , Mk2's can carry Scalp EG cruise missiles.

12. The two seat variant has almost the same internal fuel capacity. on 2% less than the single seater version!!.

13.Buddy-Buddy refueling system is available.

14. and finally, During Kosovo crisis, the 15 French Air Force Mirage 2000's based at Aviano Italy had achieved a 100 % availibility rate each day for a period of 3 months.!!
 
. .
MIRAGE 2000 SHOOT DOWN A TURKISH F-16


Mirage 2000-5

By the late 1980s, the Mirage 2000 was beginning to age compared with the latest models of U.S. F-16 fighters, so Thomson-CSF began work on a privately funded update of the Mirage 2000C which was to be named the Mirage 2000-5. A two-seat Mirage 2000B prototype was extensively modified as the first Mirage 2000-5 prototype, and it first flew on October 24, 1990. A Mirage 2000C prototype was also reworked to a similar standard, making its initial flight on April 27, 1991. The production aircraft entered operational service in 1997.[13] A two-seat version was developed as well, whose rear seat has a HUD but not an associated head-level display and lacks a built-in cannon, although cannon pods can be carried.

Improvements included the Thales TV/CT CLDP laser designator pod as well as the Thales multimode RDY (Radar Doppler Multitarget), which allows detection of up to 24 targets and the ability to simultaneously track eight threats while guiding four MICA missiles to different targets. Updates to defensive systems included the ICMS 2 countermeasures suite and the Samir DDM missile warning system. ICMS 2 incorporates a receiver and associated signal processing system in the nose for detecting hostile missile command data links, and can be interfaced to a new programmable mission-planning and post-mission analysis ground system. Avionics were also updated, using a new Night vision-compatible glass cockpit layout borrowed from the Rafale, a dual-linked wide-angle Head-up display, and HOTAS controls. The Mirage 2000-5 can also carry the oversized drop tanks developed for the Mirage 2000N, greatly extending its range.

In 1993, the AdA decided to upgrade 37 of their existing Mirage 2000s to the 2000-5 specification as a stopgap before the arrival of the Rafale in AdA service. The upgraded aircraft were redesignated Mirage 2000-5F, and became operational in 2000. They retained the old countermeasures system with the Serval/Sabre/Spirale units and did not receive the ICMS 2 system. The AdA is now considering upgrades for the type, including the MIDS datalink, MICA IR support, and the Thales Topsight helmet-mounted display and sighting system.



Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2

Dassault further improved the Mirage 2000-5, creating the Mirage 2000-5 Mark 2 which is currently the most advanced variant of the Mirage 2000. Enhancements to offensive systems included a datalink for the targeting of MICA ER missiles, the addition of the Damocles FLIR targeting pod, and a newer, stealthier Thales RDY-2 all-weather synthetic aperture radar with moving target indicator capability, which also grants the aircraft improved air-to-ground capability. The avionics were further updated with higher resolution color displays, an optional Topsight helmet-mounted display, and the addition of the Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) designed for the Rafale. A new Thales Totem 3000 inertial navigation system with ring laser gyroscope and GPS capability was added, providing much greater accuracy, higher reliability, and shorter alignment time than the older ULISS 52 navigation system which it replaced. Other upgrades included the addition of an on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) for the pilot and an ICMS 3 digital countermeasures suite.

Further planned upgrades will include Thales AIDA visual identification pod, a GPS receiver, MIDS datalink, new long-range sensors, and the Topsight E helmet-mounted display. Other technology developed for the Rafale will also be integrated into the Mirage 2000, including infrared and optical sensors for IFF and targeting.


Well it all depends what Pakistan can get cleared for and what India buys. Both planes can conduct the same roles.

SCALP EGs and APACHEs are rather expensive per shot but are important for taking out runways from a safe distance and hitting C3 sites for a long distance. I don't know how many India will buy if any. Yet Qatar had 48 or so APACHEs in service so it would be silly not to pick at least those up and put them into service. They would be sure to get the MICA EM and it seems fit the Python Mk.4 onto the planes. The AASM is not in service yet with the ADA but will be in the next few years giving a customer the option of a GPS/IR guided bomb.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s ICMS Mk.III ECM system is touted as being able to jam the SA-10/SA-11/SA-15/SA-20 as well as the AIM-120 (we'll have to find out one day
wink.gif
). Even the ICMS Mk.II on the Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDAs should be more then able to handle most Pakistan ground and most airbased radars. The Mirage 2000EH/DHs don't have the same ECM systems. If they shell out more money they could fit the IMEWS which offers a SEAD capability of sorts. If India throws out money the M-53 PX3 is around which boosts thrust by 15 percent, just needs some funding.

Pakistan could be put over the hump as it is rather doubtful they would ever be cleared for the JDAM, JASSM or any of the new "J" weapons. I could see them getting AIM-120s, GBUs, LDPs and such but nothing overly offensive like the AGM-88. I don't know if they would get cleared for the AIM-9X either. No idea on the ECM suite they will be cleared for either.

India would have a fleet numbers edge with 45 Mirage 2000EH/DHs (RDM-4/7), 12 Mirage 2000-5EDA/DDA (RDY-1) and 126 Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (RDY-2). If all are brought to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (173ish) model that would give them the most powerful M2K fleet around. Pakistan should get up to 60-70 (number being thrown around but could be less) F-16C/D Block 52s and still have the 28 F-16A/B B-15s (which couldbe brought up to MLU). That's a sizeable edge in the numbers. Those numbers give them an edge in deployment.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 costs a lot more and Pakistan will more then likely get their F-16s for free. Niether nation has the pilot market cornered. And the planes have differences that each side would try and exploit. But being the attcker would be both good and bad, good because they know when they are to attack and bad because some would more then likely have bombs. Granted with 5-6 MICA EM/IRs a Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 could quickly turn and engage the enemy. Fighting would be rather close.

Granted I could not see Indian pilots wanting to fly low due to the fact Pakistan lacks decent high alt SAMs but has scores of MANPADs. The bigger investment in guided weapons shows they do want to stay out of range of MANPADs and "trashfire". The HQ-2 (SA-2) would be easily jammed by the ICMS Mk.II much less the Mk.III hell moving around with limited ECM is actually good enough for those.

Some specs about Mirage2000-5 MK2

1. It can carry a max. external load of 6300 kg and a fuel load of 4000 kg

2. While earlier Mirage 2k's have two mission computers, one main and one standby, the Mirage2000-5 MK2 has a single central Modular Data Processing Unit (MDPU) and one Symbol Generator Unit(SGU).It operates all the systems, such as cockpit,HMD,radio communications and navigation equipment, GPS/INS,Digital recon pod etc etc.This same MDPU is based on that of the Rafale.

3.It has a large Digital EW system which is mounted fully internally.

4.It has an anolog FBW .(troung whats the difference between analog and digital FBW?)

5.The highly accurate Totem 3000 ring laser gyro INS with embedded GPS has a terrain following capability.It incorporates a Digital Terrain system.

6. Now the Best part. The Thales RDY 2 multi mode radar gives the pilot an outstanding detection and tracking ranges.its muli target capabilities permit upto 24 targets to be displayed,out of which 8 can be tracked and four can be simultaneously attacked.

7. M2k-5-MK2's internally mounted integrated counter measures systems(ICMS) and electronic warfare suite(EW) can defeat all known threats and helps survive over any hostile battlefield.It carries a powerful jammer as well as chaff/flare dispensers.

8. It is powered by Snecma M53 P2.

9. It can fire both Mica EM and IR both which are fire and forget missiles and also carries a IRST.

10. These missiles can also be carried on the under-fuselage attachment points thereby freeing the wing points to carry more fuel. the missiles fitted under these attachment points are ejected and then ignited once away from the aircraft fuselage.
cool.gif


11.In Air to ground role , Mk2's can carry Scalp EG cruise missiles.

12. The two seat variant has almost the same internal fuel capacity. on 2% less than the single seater version!!.

13.Buddy-Buddy refueling system is available.

14. and finally, During Kosovo crisis, the 15 French Air Force Mirage 2000's based at Aviano Italy had achieved a 100 % availibility rate each day for a period of 3 months.!!
what a dumb video? nothing more than some pictures...
you guys have no clue about block 52..
Greece mirage try to run away from f16 and it crash on Aegean sea..

different Videoes how Turkish f16 engage Greece jets..
 
.
what a dumb video? nothing more than some pictures...
you guys have no clue about block 52..
Greece mirage try to run away from f16 and it crash on Aegean sea..

different Videoes how Turkish f16 engage Greece jets..
Try this one

I you want to Make you Opinions on Fan-boyish Bravado videos Try this one Also

 
.
AIM-120-c5 has higher NEZ in your mentioned air to air missiles. @gambit please shed some light on capabilities of AMRAAM-C5 vs MICA-ER and thread's topic.
The 'no escape zone' (NEZ) is a loaded subject. As emotionally loaded as how people are passionate about the radar cross section values of the fighters that are the focus of their adoration.

The major problem with the NEZ is that any claim cannot be verifiable and I have no problems applying that skepticism even to US. The recipients of these claims, meaning the missiles' targets, are usually already dead and cannot give testimonies to any manufacturer's claim to lethality. So unless we can get Madam Zola to channel the spirits of the victims of these missiles to tell us what happened, let us take these claims with grains of salt.

But at least there is one agreed upon qualifier about the NEZ: That the 'no escape zone' is an area of airspace where the target cannot escape by agility alone.

The NEZ is derived from:

1- Whether that airspace volume is detected by radar or infrared sensor,

2- The assumption is that as long as the sensor continues to provide the missile with credible target discrimination,

3- The missile have superior speed,

4- And the missile have the necessary flight control systems to continue to pursue the target to the end.

The higher the quality of each item, the greater the NEZ.

1- Radar is superior to infrared in many ways that it is the preferred primary sensor for target acquisition and lock. If infrared is coupled with radar with appropriate switching algorithm to compensate for countermeasures then we raise item one over a competitor that have only radar or infrared.

2- Target discrimination is not a given just because there is a sensor of any type. Target discrimination is data driven, meaning how sophisticated is the sensor package in weeding out the target from background. It is how fast does the sensor data get to the processor section and how fast does the processor section work on that data. If a missile have solid state avionics over a competitor that have majority analog electronics, then we raise this missile over its competitor.

3- Most missiles have superior speed over the target anyway, so this is a plus for all manufacturers' claims.

4- Flight controls involves more than just actuators and deflection fins. It is navigation laws sophistication that will predict the target's future spatial location and direct the missile to that estimated location. It is the granularity of that prediction, as in whether the target is calculated in meters (plural) increment, meter (singular) increment, or less. If the actuators and deflection fins cannot respond to the commands from the navigation laws, this will affect the entire NEZ calculus -- negatively.

Since missiles are obviously export controlled items, how can any manufacturer claim his product is superior to his competitor if all competitors have the same technology base ?

According to US, when the AMRAAM was under development, an F-15C fired four missiles at four QF-100 drones that were under high maneuvers and discharging countermeasures, and all four drones were hit. The public have no other information about the above four items, especially on how much the drones tried to escape via agility and countermeasures. Countermeasures falls under item 2: credible target discrimination.

Over Iraq, the AMRAAM destroyed several Iraqi MIGs. Obviously, these are 'real world' situations. But the problem is that we do not know if the Iraqi MIGs have done anything similar to what the test drones did. Was it because the Iraqi pilots did not have radar warning receivers ? Maybe they have but the RWR system was not good enough ? Maybe the RWR system was good enough but the Iraqi pilots did not know what to do, which would make this a training issue and incompetency in combat from the same. Maybe these AMRAAM kills came from a mixture of both failure of warning and human incompetency ?

Over Serbia, an AMRAAM hit a Serbian MIG flying low level using terrain as cover, this indicate the AMRAAM have high item 2: credible target discrimination. Flying low level using terrain as cover is tricky. Depending on altitude, the pilot maybe maneuvering in response to terrain features. But it also mean his maneuvers are limited, else he would crash into a hillside or a vertical cliff, this also means the target may not be able to maneuver to the extent that he stresses the AMRAAM's navigation laws and flight controls. We can even criticize that terrain would restrains the target to be well inside the AMRAAM's 'no escape zone', making verifying the manufacturer's large NEZ claim difficult. Going back to the Serbian MIG shoot down. All we know is that the AMRAAM can distinguish a target from heavy Earth clutter, not how much the AMRAAM's technology was stressed before it hit the MIG.

The fact that the American AMRAAM have been used in combat with measurable success and yet can still be criticized means that no missile is above skepticism, regardless of how a person maybe biased towards one side or the other.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom