Export of BrahMos missile awaits nod from India, Russia

[Neo]

Export of BrahMos missile awaits nod from India, Russia​

(PTI)

9 July 2007

NEW DELHI — After the induction of the BrahMos into the army and navy, the Indo-Russian joint venture that makes the supersonic cruise missile is still awaiting an inter-governmental agreement that will allow it to market the weapon system globally.

A senior official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) attached to the BrahMos project confirmed that his office had received numerous requests from countries that had evinced keen interest in the supersonic missile. "However, the governments of India and Russia are yet to formulate a joint marketing strategy for the sale of the BrahMos system to other countries," the official told PTI.

India inducted the missile into the navy in 2005 and the army this year, while tests for fitting it to the Indian Air Force's (IAF) Sukhoi-30 jets will be conducted in the near future. Russia is yet to induct it because of legislation that prohibits its armed forces from purchasing equipment other than those made by domestic armament firms.

This is also creating problems in marketing the BrahMos as some buyers question why Russia has not inducted it when the system is so good, the official said.

He said these issues had been raised with Russian authorities, who said some amendments could be made to their legislation whereby arms and missiles made by Indo-Russian joint ventures could be accepted.

There are several countries that want to purchase the BrahMos but in the absence of any marketing strategy, its sale is lying in "cold storage", said an official who looks after the marketing of the missile system.

Such delays could lead to problems as the arms market is "quickly shrinking in this competitive world," the official said.

The BrahMos, conceived in February 1998, is named after the rivers Brahmaputra and Moskva. Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) and DRDO are partners in the joint venture BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited that makes the missile.

Twenty industries in India and 10 in Russia are involved in producing the missile which is assembled at a facility in Hyderabad.

The first test of the BrahMos was conducted June 12, 2001 at the interim test range in Orissa. The missile has a range of about 290km with supersonic speed all through its flight.

With ‘fire and forget’ as its principle of operation, the BrahMos has higher destructive capability aided by large kinetic energy of impact, higher effectiveness against ship defences and a canister for transportation, storage and launch, said sources.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...ntinent_July334.xml&section=subcontinent&col=

 

[Adux]

Nod From India!!! I thought it was a Ruskie Piece and India just painted it...lol

 

[Keysersoze]

Export of BrahMos missile awaits nod from India, Russia​

(PTI)

9 July 2007

NEW DELHI — After the induction of the BrahMos into the army and navy, the Indo-Russian joint venture that makes the supersonic cruise missile is still awaiting an inter-governmental agreement that will allow it to market the weapon system globally.

A senior official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) attached to the BrahMos project confirmed that his office had received numerous requests from countries that had evinced keen interest in the supersonic missile. "However, the governments of India and Russia are yet to formulate a joint marketing strategy for the sale of the BrahMos system to other countries," the official told PTI.

India inducted the missile into the navy in 2005 and the army this year, while tests for fitting it to the Indian Air Force's (IAF) Sukhoi-30 jets will be conducted in the near future. Russia is yet to induct it because of legislation that prohibits its armed forces from purchasing equipment other than those made by domestic armament firms.

This is also creating problems in marketing the BrahMos as some buyers question why Russia has not inducted it when the system is so good, the official said.

He said these issues had been raised with Russian authorities, who said some amendments could be made to their legislation whereby arms and missiles made by Indo-Russian joint ventures could be accepted.

There are several countries that want to purchase the BrahMos but in the absence of any marketing strategy, its sale is lying in "cold storage", said an official who looks after the marketing of the missile system.

Such delays could lead to problems as the arms market is "quickly shrinking in this competitive world," the official said.

The BrahMos, conceived in February 1998, is named after the rivers Brahmaputra and Moskva. Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) and DRDO are partners in the joint venture BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited that makes the missile.

Twenty industries in India and 10 in Russia are involved in producing the missile which is assembled at a facility in Hyderabad.

The first test of the BrahMos was conducted June 12, 2001 at the interim test range in Orissa. The missile has a range of about 290km with supersonic speed all through its flight.

With ‘fire and forget’ as its principle of operation, the BrahMos has higher destructive capability aided by large kinetic energy of impact, higher effectiveness against ship defences and a canister for transportation, storage and launch, said sources.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...ntinent_July334.xml&section=subcontinent&col=

I think the highlighted sections say it all.......It's so good that Russia hasn't inducted it in any form........

Let us not forget that it is TOTALLY INVINCIBLE if you believe ceratin members

 

[Bull]

I think the highlighted sections say it all.......It's so good that Russia hasn't inducted it in any form........

Let us not forget that it is TOTALLY INVINCIBLE if you believe ceratin members

Well Key you were too eager to mock, shud have taken a bit more time to read it completly. Russian law prohibits it from buying arms developed by foreign countries, its only allowed to buy from doemstic arms companies.

Export of BrahMos missile awaits nod from India, Russia​

(PTI)

9 July 2007

NEW DELHI — After the induction of the BrahMos into the army and navy, the Indo-Russian joint venture that makes the supersonic cruise missile is still awaiting an inter-governmental agreement that will allow it to market the weapon system globally.

A senior official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) attached to the BrahMos project confirmed that his office had received numerous requests from countries that had evinced keen interest in the supersonic missile. "However, the governments of India and Russia are yet to formulate a joint marketing strategy for the sale of the BrahMos system to other countries," the official told PTI.

India inducted the missile into the navy in 2005 and the army this year, while tests for fitting it to the Indian Air Force's (IAF) Sukhoi-30 jets will be conducted in the near future. Russia is yet to induct it because of legislation that prohibits its armed forces from purchasing equipment other than those made by domestic armament firms.

This is also creating problems in marketing the BrahMos as some buyers question why Russia has not inducted it when the system is so good, the official said.

He said these issues had been raised with Russian authorities, who said some amendments could be made to their legislation whereby arms and missiles made by Indo-Russian joint ventures could be accepted.

There are several countries that want to purchase the BrahMos but in the absence of any marketing strategy, its sale is lying in "cold storage", said an official who looks after the marketing of the missile system.

Such delays could lead to problems as the arms market is "quickly shrinking in this competitive world," the official said.

The BrahMos, conceived in February 1998, is named after the rivers Brahmaputra and Moskva. Russia's NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) and DRDO are partners in the joint venture BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited that makes the missile.

Twenty industries in India and 10 in Russia are involved in producing the missile which is assembled at a facility in Hyderabad.

The first test of the BrahMos was conducted June 12, 2001 at the interim test range in Orissa. The missile has a range of about 290km with supersonic speed all through its flight.

With ‘fire and forget’ as its principle of operation, the BrahMos has higher destructive capability aided by large kinetic energy of impact, higher effectiveness against ship defences and a canister for transportation, storage and launch, said sources.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...ntinent_July334.xml&section=subcontinent&col=

 

[Adux]

Keyser is just trying to flame, Last resort...cheapshot

 

[Keysersoze]

Not really I have gone into detail in regards to supersonic missile but get the same "it's faster than anything" type of response. So basically they haven't even inducted the missile in any way or form. Even in a Russianised form.

It's not a theatre changing weapon according to a few people in the industry that i met.

 

[Bull]

Not really I have gone into detail in regards to supersonic missile but get the same "it's faster than anything" type of response. So basically they haven't even inducted the missile in any way or form. Even in a Russianised form.

It's not a theatre changing weapon according to a few people in the industry that i met.

Pls go and read why the russians havnt done it so and why the missile hasnt been sold yet across the world.

 

[Adux]

Funny, how they take babur as the uber weapon, when nothing is known about it!!! lol

 

[Samudra]

It's not a theatre changing weapon according to a few people in the industry that i met.

According to my dead grand father a lot of people in the industry are still scratching their heads wondering how to detect and intercept a missile that does a Mach 2.8 dash less than 30 ft ASL to its target on a programmable flight path with a body that enjoys low RCS.

Brahmos is overkill.

The debris coming from a destroyed Brahmos at close ranges should be enough to handle our targets in Pak.

I've told you this before in another thread, but you chose to quit it and start the same bs without any data back up. We're all supposed to believe the 'people in the industry.'

 

[Keysersoze]

According to my dead grand father a lot of people in the industry are still scratching their heads wondering how to detect and intercept a missile that does a Mach 2.8 dash less than 30 ft ASL to its target on a programmable flight path with a body that enjoys low RCS.

Brahmos is overkill.

The debris coming from a destroyed Brahmos at close ranges should be enough to handle our targets in Pak.

I've told you this before in another thread, but you chose to quit it and start the same bs without any data back up. We're all supposed to believe the 'people in the industry.'

O.K. I have a bit more time than i did last time so i will break it down in more detail for you. Now with all due respects to your deceased grandfather the threat from a supersonic cruise missile has been around for a while. And yet the U.S. does not operate them. (Or any other western navy for that matter......)

Lets use the Yakhont as a baseline for this lesson.

The missile is 8.9 meters (29.1 feet) in length. It can be launched from ships, aircraft, submarines, or even ground mobile launchers and is fired from a unified encapsulated ampoule - shaped transporter - launching container. Flight speed is at Mach 2.0+, using a kerosene liquid-fuel ramjet, with a terminal run at Mach 2.5.

Range is at 300 km in a hi-lo profile or at 120 km at altitudes of 5-15 metres, in a lo-lo profile. A regular mid-course phase of the flight occurs at 15 km. If and when launched from submarines, the vessel must be fitted with 650mm torpedo tubes. An operational missile designed for hitting complex sea-based and in-shore targets, a vessel armed with the Yakhount can carry out combat operations against warships or even against carrier battle groups. Yakhont's navigation system uses an inertial guidance system based on the present target location data. At a pre-calculated flight point (around 25 - 80 km), a brief turn-on of the homing scanner occurs, resulting in exact determination of target location. After that, the homing system turns on only when the Yakhont leaves the radio horizon and drops its altitude to 5 - 15 metres, i.e. a few seconds before hitting the target. It carries a 250 kg (553 lbs.) warhead.

O.K. now there would be slight differences but I highly doubt they are going to be significantly different.

So here are a few points for you to ponder......


1)A supersonic SSM has to fly a high trajectory in order to travel a long distance., Why? Well at lower levels air density plays it's part...
At higher altitudes the missile would be detected earlier and thus you have more reaction time.
Also at higher altitudes the missile is easier to shoot down with SAM's.

2) Supersonic SSMs have more obvious IR signature and bigger RCS than most other sea skimmers. This again allows interception. (Oh and just so you know the U.S. have been using supersonic target drones since the 60's


3) Supersonic SSM's' high speed causes stochastic high pressure from air. This creates trajectory shiver.Also supersonic SSM's can be damaged by the water if it flies as low as a subsonic SSM. So I would suggest that the cruise phase will be at the higher end of the figure quoted. Thus making it easier to shoot down.

Normally a supersonic SSM flies 15-30m high in terminal phase and only reduce to 5m in the last 1km of the trip.


4) Supersonic SSM's seeker's have to stand a more strenuous working environment. And since they have to save as much space as possible for fuel, the seeker aperture will not be as large as other (subsonic) missiles. Thus it's accuracy can be thrown off fairly easily by ECM or other measures.


5)A supersonic SSM's reflected radar waves have more obvious doppler frequency shift. A supersonic SSM has higher relative speed to enemy's radar. In short it means that it is easier to pick up a supersonic SSM's signals from back ground disturbed signals such as radr waves from reflections off the water.

6)"Fire-and-Forget" does not mean the system is impervious to jamming via electrical or mechanical means. It means that the rough coordinates (along with way-points) are programmed into the missile as to where the target most likely will be and the terminal guidance phase is set to a range window. When the missile gets to this range window, the seeker will turn on and look for targets.

7) Airborne assets would pick up the missile much much easier.... normal Shipborne SAMs are designed with sea skimming systems in mind (A lesson learned from the Falklands war) The Hawkeye 2000's would give over the horizon coverage and the Phalanx system (that has been recently upgraded with the Rolling RAM potential) gives goal keeper defence. As well as systems such as Mistral.

 

[con]

O.K. I have a bit more time than i did last time so i will break it down in more detail for you. Now with all due respects to your deceased grandfather the threat from a supersonic cruise missile has been around for a while. And yet the U.S. does not operate them. (Or any other western navy for that matter......)

Well with the simple fact that Americans did not plan to "overwhelm" Russian ship defenses, as the Russian planned for the American ships, as Russian could never deploy the amount of naval power the US could.

O.K. now there would be slight differences but I highly doubt they are going to be significantly different.

There would be. India carried out 14 tests so far for the past 3-4 years. Why test so much for a already developed system unless you are adding some interesting stuff?

1)A supersonic SSM has to fly a high trajectory in order to travel a long distance., Why? Well at lower levels air density plays it's part...
At higher altitudes the missile would be detected earlier and thus you have more reaction time.
Also at higher altitudes the missile is easier to shoot down with SAM's.

Is it so easy to shoot down a Mach 2 missile at 100km? I dont think so.They have wait until the missile is kill zone. Also Brahmos carries a radar tracking system. Wouldn't it detect a incoming interceptor missile and deploy counter measures? The more near the target Brahmos comes,it is easier to track and shoot..however you have a Mach2 missile.. that means less reaction time time. Remember most of the sub-sonic ASHM is supersonic at terminal and hence reduce the reaction time. This is basically done to reduce the size and give good range. Multi-platform usage. Ship,aircraft etc.

Compared with other ASHM, Brahmos is "huge".

2) Supersonic SSMs have more obvious IR signature and bigger RCS than most other sea skimmers. This again allows interception. (Oh and just so you know the U.S. have been using supersonic target drones since the 60's


3) Supersonic SSM's' high speed causes stochastic high pressure from air. This creates trajectory shiver.Also supersonic SSM's can be damaged by the water if it flies as low as a subsonic SSM. So I would suggest that the cruise phase will be at the higher end of the figure quoted. Thus making it easier to shoot down.

Normally a supersonic SSM flies 15-30m high in terminal phase and only reduce to 5m in the last 1km of the trip.

US would have the counter measures. No doubt about it. But how about the Indian subcontinent? Why country will deploy counter measure for a Mach 2 missile in the near future? Brahmos is not gonna be deployed against the US.

4) Supersonic SSM's seeker's have to stand a more strenuous working environment. And since they have to save as much space as possible for fuel, the seeker aperture will not be as large as other (subsonic) missiles. Thus it's accuracy can be thrown off fairly easily by ECM or other measures.


5)A supersonic SSM's reflected radar waves have more obvious doppler frequency shift. A supersonic SSM has higher relative speed to enemy's radar. In short it means that it is easier to pick up a supersonic SSM's signals from back ground disturbed signals such as radr waves from reflections off the water.

6)"Fire-and-Forget" does not mean the system is impervious to jamming via electrical or mechanical means. It means that the rough coordinates (along with way-points) are programmed into the missile as to where the target most likely will be and the terminal guidance phase is set to a range window. When the missile gets to this range window, the seeker will turn on and look for targets.

7) Airborne assets would pick up the missile much much easier.... normal Shipborne SAMs are designed with sea skimming systems in mind (A lesson learned from the Falklands war) The Hawkeye 2000's would give over the horizon coverage and the Phalanx system (that has been recently upgraded with the Rolling RAM potential) gives goal keeper defence. As well as systems such as Mistral.

Keys, these points you have raised is also applicable for sub-sonic missile. Nothing different .
The points you have mentioned is based on the Russian deployment of higher Mach missiles and American thinking around it. Which I may say is more than a decade old. Remember Brahmos is an upgrade of Yakhanot,not just the older system.
If these points are publicly available,wonder what kind of details the developer would have access to? Do you still think they will not develop counter measures for these "known" issues?

 

[Samudra]

Hey, it does Mach 2.8. Not Mach 2.

And yet the U.S. does not operate them

Their doctrines are different, ours are different. It ain't bad because the yankees don't use'em. No biggie.

A supersonic SSM has to fly a high trajectory in order to travel a long distance., Why? Well at lower levels air density plays it's part...

Brahmos can do a less than 30 feet ASL Mach 2.8 dash to 140 kms. And with programmable flight profile the missile can do the first half of the flight closer to ground and climb up for the remaining. Compensate for range there.

The missile will fly low in its initial phases. You ain't detecting it. And by the time you do, it's too late.

It's all about speed and adopting the correct flight profile thereby cutting down reaction time. And with terminal manouvers...the chances of intercepting a Brahmos are so little.

Keys, do us a favor. Find out how many weapons out there have carried out interceptions of targets flying at Mach 2.8

A handfull ? Two or three ?

 

[Keysersoze]

Well with the simple fact that Americans did not plan to "overwhelm" Russian ship defenses, as the Russian planned for the American ships, as Russian could never deploy the amount of naval power the US could.



There would be. India carried out 14 tests so far for the past 3-4 years. Why test so much for a already developed system unless you are adding some interesting stuff?


Is it so easy to shoot down a Mach 2 missile at 100km? I dont think so.They have wait until the missile is kill zone. Also Brahmos carries a radar tracking system. Wouldn't it detect a incoming interceptor missile and deploy counter measures? The more near the target Brahmos comes,it is easier to track and shoot..however you have a Mach2 missile.. that means less reaction time time. Remember most of the sub-sonic ASHM is supersonic at terminal and hence reduce the reaction time. This is basically done to reduce the size and give good range. Multi-platform usage. Ship,aircraft etc.

Compared with other ASHM, Brahmos is "huge".


US would have the counter measures. No doubt about it. But how about the Indian subcontinent? Why country will deploy counter measure for a Mach 2 missile in the near future? Brahmos is not gonna be deployed against the US.



Keys, these points you have raised is also applicable for sub-sonic missile. Nothing different .
The points you have mentioned is based on the Russian deployment of higher Mach missiles and American thinking around it. Which I may say is more than a decade old. Remember Brahmos is an upgrade of Yakhanot,not just the older system.
If these points are publicly available,wonder what kind of details the developer would have access to? Do you still think they will not develop counter measures for these "known" issues?

1)Well I doubt that the U.S. would simply discard a weapon system that some people claim is the next super duper weapon......Why? well simple really it is a bludgeon which has several weaknesses. A very expensive bludgeon as well.

2)Well with out having to go back over old ground India have hardly been speedy with their R&D. Whilst there may be some improvements I doubt they are substantial. After all I remember reading about the Russian's being upset that Brahmos was stealing yahkont customers. If the Brahmos was a quantum leap ahead there would not be a issue they would be in two different classes.

3)Half the battle is knowing where the missile is. If you can track it from 100km away then you can try to knock it down at the extreme of your defensive range (rather than falling back upon close defence systems when it is closer). Also you know where the enemy ship\plane\launcher is. You can then launch counters to them.

4)Now the Sub continent question is a interesting one. The PN for example (with it's defensive posture) could float the Hawkeye 2000's above the defensive line to help as the first layer. Along with a Air CAP. The ships (Chinese) would have HQ-7 (Navalised Crotale,) out at 16 km and less or the HQ-16 (25-32km). Mistral and Phalanx for close protection. There is the option of the RIM-116 (which the phalanx system was recently updated to be suitable for.)
Now if the navy opts for the U-214, then it would open up the MEKO ships with all the goodies on them ......There are plenty of systems that would be suitable against the threat.

5)Ok now the next question is regarding the difference between subsonic and supersonic systems.
a)Subsonic systems can travel in a LO profile all the way through and will be more stealthy because of that.
b)Supersonic missiles have larger RCS and IR signature than a subsonic one.
c)A subsonic missile can maintain a 3~5 meter altitude with little or no problems. A supersonic missile cannot do this.
d)A subsonic missile usually has a bigger seeker aperture and less arduous environment to work in. This would improve accuracy.
e)Subsonic missile would have a lower frequency shift making them more "stealthy" until it is relatively close to the target.

So the problems of a supersonic and Subsonic missile are not the same.

Now intercepts of a supersonic missile.......How about intercepts of a hypersonic missile? Ever heard of A Scud missile? The Patriot system (faulty at the time) managed to shoot a few of those down and they were going Hypersonic. The Rolling RAM is Designed to be able to take down a supersonic missiles (as are most newer systems out there if look)AND aircraft. The RIM-162 ESSM is another........SM2 ,Aster 30 can intercept out to 100km the list can go on and on. the idea that a missile can't be intercepted is daft.If a hypersonic missile warhead can intercepted I think a supersonic one can.

And finally I have given the reasons why it would be detected. If certain people can't comprehend it it shows them in their true lights

 

[con]

1)Well I doubt that the U.S. would simply discard a weapon system that some people claim is the next super duper weapon......Why? well simple really it is a bludgeon which has several weaknesses. A very expensive bludgeon as well.

2)Well with out having to go back over old ground India have hardly been speedy with their R&D. Whilst there may be some improvements I doubt they are substantial. After all I remember reading about the Russian's being upset that Brahmos was stealing yahkont customers. If the Brahmos was a quantum leap ahead there would not be a issue they would be in two different classes.

3)Half the battle is knowing where the missile is. If you can track it from 100km away then you can try to knock it down at the extreme of your defensive range (rather than falling back upon close defence systems when it is closer). Also you know where the enemy ship\plane\launcher is. You can then launch counters to them.

4)Now the Sub continent question is a interesting one. The PN for example (with it's defensive posture) could float the Hawkeye 2000's above the defensive line to help as the first layer. Along with a Air CAP. The ships (Chinese) would have HQ-7 (Navalised Crotale,) out at 16 km and less or the HQ-16 (25-32km). Mistral and Phalanx for close protection. There is the option of the RIM-116 (which the phalanx system was recently updated to be suitable for.)
Now if the navy opts for the U-214, then it would open up the MEKO ships with all the goodies on them ......There are plenty of systems that would be suitable against the threat.

5)Ok now the next question is regarding the difference between subsonic and supersonic systems.
a)Subsonic systems can travel in a LO profile all the way through and will be more stealthy because of that.
b)Supersonic missiles have larger RCS and IR signature than a subsonic one.
c)A subsonic missile can maintain a 3~5 meter altitude with little or no problems. A supersonic missile cannot do this.
d)A subsonic missile usually has a bigger seeker aperture and less arduous environment to work in. This would improve accuracy.
e)Subsonic missile would have a lower frequency shift making them more "stealthy" until it is relatively close to the target.

So the problems of a supersonic and Subsonic missile are not the same.

Now intercepts of a supersonic missile.......How about intercepts of a hypersonic missile? Ever heard of A Scud missile? The Patriot system (faulty at the time) managed to shoot a few of those down and they were going Hypersonic. The Rolling RAM is Designed to be able to take down a supersonic missiles (as are most newer systems out there if look)AND aircraft. The RIM-162 ESSM is another........SM2 ,Aster 30 can intercept out to 100km the list can go on and on. the idea that a missile can't be intercepted is daft.If a hypersonic missile warhead can intercepted I think a supersonic one can.

And finally I have given the reasons why it would be detected. If certain people can't comprehend it it shows them in their true lights

keys,
1. It was just a matter of doctrine. Russia needs these supersonic missile to overwhelm and defeat ship defenses. US has it's naval air arm to do that. Compare the number of aircraft carrier US and Russia had. Simple fact is US did not feel the need for it.

2. India has been slow with "scratch development" of system. With Brahmos India designed the guidance system,while Russian implemented the engines, a area where India is week.
Now Russian complaining. First and foremost it was couple of guys in a defense exhibition complaining. Now do we consider that as the official line? Why would Russian complain when they themselves are 50% owner, why would they cry?
By the way how "hot" is Yakhnot sale?

3. It might be in case of aircrafts and ships.. not necessary the case on Mach 2+ missile. You stil have to shoot it down. You would be lucky to get a first hit. The more the miss,it comes nearer to you at 3 times faster than a subsonic ASHM. For example at 100km you have 2 mnts,while for subsonic 6 mnts. You dont have much time do you.
Also detecting a launcher at 300km. lets say even if you do detect.. what will do with it? which is the other ASHM/SAM with such a range?

4.First thing in a conflict, the IN's naval arm will be searching for the Orions and Hawkeye like hell. I am not sure how much they can be "away" from a land based escort.
Subs can target ships,but how many? subs are not a counter for ASHM.
Guns and close in defenses are good for subsonic as even after destruction the debris dont fall on the ships, but supersonic it is not the case.
And as I said... what US has is not necessary every one has.

5.a. But what is the point? It does not matter it is "invisible" al the way through. But it will be detected at the defense radar ranges. Given that both subsonic and supersonic can de detected at the same range,which one do you think would be lethal?
Chinese ASHM has been shot down British ships in the Gulf war. We already have proof that subsonic can be shot down.
b. RCS has to do with shape,not speed. But then as I said you should have highly reactive defense system to handle supersonic missile. Reason..Reaction time. I dont think anyone in the subcontinent currently has such a system.
c. Why not? If this was a problem in the initial days, it is obvious that the developer would like to rectify that. A stronger body can handle the pressure created in low flight.
d. Sorry I am not convinced. If you want bigger and powerful seaker..the missile size will increase. I dont see how this is a "advantage" over subsonic.
e. I am not sure how RCS reduction will help a stealthy subsonic wil be detected at 50 km while a "unstealthy" supersonic at 100. It takes 2 mnts to cover for supersonic while subsonic takes 3 mnts to cover 50 km. Hmm back to the same issue... reaction time...

Scuds.
You are talking about ballistic missiles. Compare the infrastructure required to detect and target a ballistic missile to that for a ASHM on a ship.
Now how do they detected ballistic missile so easily because ..it take ballistic path.
ASHM & cruise? Do they take ballistic path? We are back to the same point .Reaction time... Ballistic path gives more reaction time for tracking.

I say again the points you have raised is "known" for a while. There is a reason India carried on 14 test on Brahmos.

 

[Keysersoze]

keys,
1. It was just a matter of doctrine. Russia needs these supersonic missile to overwhelm and defeat ship defenses. US has it's naval air arm to do that. Compare the number of aircraft carrier US and Russia had. Simple fact is US did not feel the need for it.

2. India has been slow with "scratch development" of system. With Brahmos India designed the guidance system,while Russian implemented the engines, a area where India is week.
Now Russian complaining. First and foremost it was couple of guys in a defense exhibition complaining. Now do we consider that as the official line? Why would Russian complain when they themselves are 50% owner, why would they cry?
By the way how "hot" is Yakhnot sale?

3. It might be in case of aircrafts and ships.. not necessary the case on Mach 2+ missile. You stil have to shoot it down. You would be lucky to get a first hit. The more the miss,it comes nearer to you at 3 times faster than a subsonic ASHM. For example at 100km you have 2 mnts,while for subsonic 6 mnts. You dont have much time do you.
Also detecting a launcher at 300km. lets say even if you do detect.. what will do with it? which is the other ASHM/SAM with such a range?

4.First thing in a conflict, the IN's naval arm will be searching for the Orions and Hawkeye like hell. I am not sure how much they can be "away" from a land based escort.
Subs can target ships,but how many? subs are not a counter for ASHM.
Guns and close in defenses are good for subsonic as even after destruction the debris dont fall on the ships, but supersonic it is not the case.
And as I said... what US has is not necessary every one has.

5.a. But what is the point? It does not matter it is "invisible" al the way through. But it will be detected at the defense radar ranges. Given that both subsonic and supersonic can de detected at the same range,which one do you think would be lethal?
Chinese ASHM has been shot down British ships in the Gulf war. We already have proof that subsonic can be shot down.
b. RCS has to do with shape,not speed. But then as I said you should have highly reactive defense system to handle supersonic missile. Reason..Reaction time. I dont think anyone in the subcontinent currently has such a system.
c. Why not? If this was a problem in the initial days, it is obvious that the developer would like to rectify that. A stronger body can handle the pressure created in low flight.
d. Sorry I am not convinced. If you want bigger and powerful seaker..the missile size will increase. I dont see how this is a "advantage" over subsonic.
e. I am not sure how RCS reduction will help a stealthy subsonic wil be detected at 50 km while a "unstealthy" supersonic at 100. It takes 2 mnts to cover for supersonic while subsonic takes 3 mnts to cover 50 km. Hmm back to the same issue... reaction time...

Scuds.
You are talking about ballistic missiles. Compare the infrastructure required to detect and target a ballistic missile to that for a ASHM on a ship.
Now how do they detected ballistic missile so easily because ..it take ballistic path.
ASHM & cruise? Do they take ballistic path? We are back to the same point .Reaction time... Ballistic path gives more reaction time for tracking.

I say again the points you have raised is "known" for a while. There is a reason India carried on 14 test on Brahmos.

1)Dude I am familiar with Russian doctrine in this matter. However the only way the Russian system would work would have been by firing huge numbers of missiles at any fleet. But that does not mean it was the best way. It would have been suicide for the attacking forces to attempt it and the systems were already in place throughout the 80's to counter the threat. So the means existed to counter missiles such as the AS-4 (capable of speeds of 4000kmh) back in the 80's so it would be noo big stretch to build upon those ideas.

2)This Post should answer the whole question re this:
Row over BrahMos

Vladimir Radyuhin

MOSCOW: India has been caught in a row between Russian weapons companies over the Indo-Russian BrahMos missile that may affect defence cooperation.

Dr. A. Sivathanu Pillai, CEO&MD, BrahMos Aerospace Ltd., expressed bewilderment at a sharp attack the Russian Government news agency Itar-Tass mounted last week on India's efforts to promote BrahMos in international markets.

Taking objection to the way BrahMos was fielded against not only third country missiles but also Russian-built systems "Moskit," "Club" and X-55 at a recent defence show in Jakarta, Indonesia, Itar-Tass accused the JV "BrahMos Aerospace" of "discrediting" Russian missiles and "squeezing" them from the market.

"They shoot themselves in the leg by making such charges, because BrahMos is a joint product of India and Russia," Dr. Pillai told The Hindu . Quoting unnamed defence industry sources, Itar-Tass questioned the expediency of setting up joint ventures with other countries to develop new weapon systems.

Until now Russian officials praised the BrahMos project as a ground-breaking example of a shift from the buyer-seller relations between India and Russia to joint development of futuristic defence technologies.

Monopoly

The attack on BrahMos gains a bigger dimension in the light of near-total monopolisation of Russian defence exports by the Russian state company Rosoboronexport. Under a decree signed by President Vladimir Putin all Russian arms exports, with the exception of spare parts, will go through Rosoboronexport as of March 1, 2007. This means that the BrahMos missile will be the only weapon system whose sales are not be controlled by Rosoboronexport. Analysts said the attack on BrahMos may have been orchestrated by Rosoboronexport, which will not receive any proceeds from the sales of BrahMos missiles. "We cannot rule out that Rosoboronexport may bring pressure to bear on NPO Mashinostroyenie now that the latter will depend on the state exporter for the marketing of its other products," a Russian defence expert told The Hindu .

Dr. Pillai warned that the attack on BrahMos worked against the spirit of trust between India and Russia. "The aim of the BrahMos JV is to reinforce time-tested trust and friendship between India and Russia," the BrahMos chief said. "The Itar-Tass story goes against the objective of the JV."

I'll bet that Yakhont will have similar performance to Brahmos soon.

3)/4)As I stated previously the means to hit supersonic (mach 2 +) missiles have been around for some time now. If the PAK navy wasn't in a Bastion defence then it would have real troubles. HOWEVER it would have a multi layered defence. You mentioned that the P-3's and Hawkeye 2000's would be hunted and would not be able to survive with out air cover. Since the aircraft would be in easy range of land based aircraft, why do you assume there would be no air cover?
The phalanx systems have been upgraded to 1B standard and there are the other ships that are on the table. If PAK for example gets some meko's (with a potential U-214 sale) or type 54's, then it would have RAM and Umkhunto missiles or alternative VLS system along with dual CIWS system. So the means will be there. Also in order to launch with a more positive chance of hitting it would have to be from a closer range. This would put it (the ship launch platform) into the range of a number of platforms such as Harpoon, Exocet and c-802 missiles. Aircraft would have to come into the range of Airborne surveillance (The hawkeye2000 can detect out to 550km)http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/hawkeye/
Another point to consider is that it (A supersonic missile) has less time to acquire target, meaning it has less time to counter the ECM, the decoy missiles, basically less time to distinguish the real target from the duped ones.

5)A supersonic SSM can't fly as low as a subsonic SSM in it's terminal phase. A Supersonic SSM's high speed creates stochastic high pressure from air, creating Trajectory shiver. the supersonic SSM is very easy to knock down with water if it flies as low as a subsonic SSM.
Normally a supersonic SSM flies 30m in terminal phase and only drops to 5m in the last 1km of the trip. A subsonic SSM flys 3/5m high in terminal phase. This also means the subsonic missile would have less chance to be detected and shot down.


5) Supersonic SSM's reflected radar waves have a more detectable Doppler frequency shift than a sub-sonic because a supersonic SSM has higher relative speed . It's easier to pick up a supersonic SSM's signals from background clutter, such as radar waves reflected by water.
You can lock-up a supersonic SSM once it's over the horizon. It's harder to lock a stealthy subsonic SSM. You can't continuously track it because its signature is very weak and it can hide in the background noise. you can pick up signals but not enough to get a lock. So by the time you successfully lock onto a subsonic SSM and launch a SAM, the incoming SSM will only be 20/30km away from the ships/fleet. The reaction time left is always shorter than a supersonic SSM.


5)You guys seem to tout the missile speed as being some sort of magic totem but there is a flip side to the speed. The missile has less time to acquire targets, meaning it has less time to be able to pick the real targets from the ECM, Chaff etc etc.

5)The RCS of a Supersonic missile will always be bigger because it requires more fuel, a bigger engine (which needs to be a specific shape in order to be fast) Any RAM coating will not last long due to the heat. Also the heat would make a juicy target for any IR based systems. Most modern SAM systems will be able target and hit a target of that size. The Block 1b Phalanx has FLIR systems as well.

5)The air pressure would create a aerodynamic effect which strengthening the body would not have a effect.

5)Ever wondered why the shuttle loses contact when re-entering the atmosphere? The same principle would apply when moving a supersonic missile through heavy air at sea level. This would have an effect on the seeker, hence the point that the seeker on a supersonic missile would not be as effective as a subsonic one. Also the fuel and engine requirements would limit the supersonic missiles' electronics.

Finally there have been lots of supersonic interceptions a Mig-25 was shot down at mach 3. Most missiles are tested on supersonic target drones so I doubt the 14 tests will have overcome the numerous problems there are.........The reaction time is all very nice but if you spot it earlier then you will have additional time to intercept it.