Export bids for JF-17 Thunder Multirole Lightweight Fighter Aircraft

[Basel]

First time im hearing that western companies are ready to sell us AESA radars, engine, avionics lolz, weapons etc. We couldnt obtain a bit better class of gyroscopes from all around the west and u claim they are ready to sell all that. Maybe you are from a parallel universe where all that is possible and have crossed over here mistakenly.

It shows you have not read JFT thread property, of you had you would have not be asking this question.

 

[MastanKhan]

I don't think NATO nations will be too thrilled to have a Chinese built aircraft training alongside them.

Hi,

Any given nation's military is desperate to train against an opposing nation's different military hardware---and you did not know that.

 

[TNT]

It shows you have not read JFT thread property, of you had you would have not be asking this question.

Thread is mostly based on wish list of fanboys and their imaginations, doesnt make it reality or even a possibility. Yes there was a time they would sell us but that time is long gone.

 

[That Guy]

Thread is mostly based on wish list of fanboys and their imaginations, doesnt make it reality or even a possibility. Yes there was a time they would sell us but that time is long gone.

The Italians offered their AESA to Pakistan, but Pakistan couldn't afford it, so went with the Chinese option instead. The Italians have the offer still on board, in case Pakistan changes its mind, or if another customer buying the thunder wants it.

This has already been confirmed. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[FuturePAF]

The Italians offered their AESA to Pakistan, but Pakistan couldn't afford it, so went with the Chinese option instead. The Italians have the offer still on board, in case Pakistan changes its mind, or if another customer buying the thunder wants it.

This has already been confirmed. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Perhaps keeping the Chinese AESA (for the sake of weapons integration) but getting an Italian IRST (like the one from the Eurofighter or the Gripen) in podded form maybe a good option instead.

 

[That Guy]

Perhaps keeping the Chinese AESA (for the sake of weapons integration) but getting an Italian IRST (like the one from the Eurofighter or the Gripen) in podded form maybe a good option instead.

Perhaps, but I'm not expert on the subject. All I know is that Pakistan should try and deepen ties with Italy, as it's one of the few EU nations willing to do business with Pakistan as an equal partner.

With India squashing the one major issue between Italy and India, Pakistan needs to act quickly. If the Italians sense that Pakistan isn't serious, and that India can offer better value, that's gonna hurt Pakistan even more.

The best way to do that is to sign a major defense deal, whatever it maybe.

 

[TNT]

The Italians offered their AESA to Pakistan, but Pakistan couldn't afford it, so went with the Chinese option instead. The Italians have the offer still on board, in case Pakistan changes its mind, or if another customer buying the thunder wants it.

This has already been confirmed. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yes they did as its the only EU country we have good relations with. I would still doubt they would give us their top of the line defence equipment. Most probably watered down versions. I doubt the price would have been the only issue as how much difference would there be in price between italian aesa and klj7a? And its impact on end price. There are many other factors that would have been taken into account.
There is also a chance of throwing spanner in the wheels in the end by someone while dealing with top line western defence equipment, which can waste time and be more detrimental than outright rejection. Given current geopolitics, a common excuse can be china. Pakistan having very close relations with china and top defence tech can fall in Chinese hand is the best excuse for any western Parliament to veto arms sales to us.

 

[That Guy]

Yes they did as its the only EU country we have good relations with. I would still doubt they would give us their top of the line defence equipment. Most probably watered down versions. I doubt the price would have been the only issue as how much difference would there be in price between italian aesa and klj7a? And its impact on end price. There are many other factors that would have been taken into account.
There is also a chance of throwing spanner in the wheels in the end by someone while dealing with top line western defence equipment, which can waste time and be more detrimental than outright rejection. Given current geopolitics, a common excuse can be china. Pakistan having very close relations with china and top defence tech can fall in Chinese hand is the best excuse for any western Parliament to veto arms sales to us.

Actually, we got the price issue from Pakistani sources. The Italian AESA apparently had better range and reliability than the KLJ-7A, but price made a huge impact, as at that time of procurement Pakistan was going through a number of difficult financial situations.

While there is always the issue of getting a watered down version, what Italy was offering Pakistan was clearly superior to the Chinese offer in practically every way, except price.

Sometimes, the simplest answer is the easiest; Pakistan simply couldn't afford the Italian offer.

Around that time, Pakistan was also going through a rifle replacement competition (one of the rifles offered was Italian), which has also since been shelved, as Pakistan's economic situation is still quite poor.

Hi,

Any given nation's military is desperate to train against an opposing nation's different military hardware---and you did not know that.

This is correct. It gives militaries experience against hardware that they're likely to face in the real world. The US buys second hand Russian equipment for a reason.

 

[Beast]

U can get Italian radar but I doubt US will release the source code to mate it with AIM-120 nor UK for Meteor.

 

[MastanKhan]

Actually, we got the price issue from Pakistani sources. The Italian AESA apparently had better range and reliability than the KLJ-7A, but price made a huge impact, as at that time of procurement Pakistan was going through a number of difficult financial situations.

While there is always the issue of getting a watered down version, what Italy was offering Pakistan was clearly superior to the Chinese offer in practically every way, except price.

Sometimes, the simplest answer is the easiest; Pakistan simply couldn't afford the Italian offer.

Around that time, Pakistan was also going through a rifle replacement competition (one of the rifles offered was Italian), which has also since been shelved, as Pakistan's economic situation is still quite poor.

This is correct. It gives militaries experience against hardware that they're likely to face in the real world. The US buys second hand Russian equipment for a reason.

Hi,

Quality has a value of its own---and that cannot be measured in dollars---.

Ever used Snap On tools --- outrageously expensive---but will not let you down where other tools of the same type but other brands fail.

 

[khanasifm]

The Italians offered their AESA to Pakistan, but Pakistan couldn't afford it, so went with the Chinese option instead. The Italians have the offer still on board, in case Pakistan changes its mind, or if another customer buying the thunder wants it.

This has already been confirmed. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Beg to differ with transfer of technology part of the deal it was no brainer to go for klj-7a the specs are pretty much same Except few such as number of target detected , tracked etc and paf was fine with it

You are not getting any technology fro EU or west and for klj-7a you are which will help in local support plus future growth also integration of any weapons while in EU you were not getting source codes

Bottom-line there is no comparison as the long term benefits out way the short term gains

Lastly radar from EU weapons from east pods from turkey etc you get into su-30mki where nothing integrates because they donot have anything fully from Russians , not French or others ans local crap [emoji90] [emoji6][emoji854]

 

[That Guy]

Beg to differ with transfer of technology part of the deal it was no brainer to go for klj-7a the specs are pretty much same Except few such as number of target detected , tracked etc and paf was fine with it

You are not getting any technology fro EU or west and for klj-7a you are which will help in local support plus future growth also integration of any weapons while in EU you were not getting source codes

Bottom-line there is no comparison as the long term benefits out way the short term gains

Lastly radar from EU weapons from east pods from turkey etc you get into su-30mki where nothing integrates because they donot have anything fully from Russians , not French or others ans local crap [emoji90] [emoji6][emoji854]

You can beg to differ all you want, but Pakistani sources involved in the project have already said it was mainly a financial issue. They were impressed by the Italian AESA, but the price was too much fir their liking.

The thunder was designed to be a modular system from the ground up, where you'd be able to integrate various systems from a number of sources. It was purposefully made like this, so as to make it sanction proof, if one nation put sanctions, Pakistan would be able to go to another source to get a similar product.

 

[Tipu7]

Yes they did as its the only EU country we have good relations with. I would still doubt they would give us their top of the line defence equipment

Italy, Germany, Sweden, all are involved in defense sectors of Pakistan in varying capacity.

I doubt the price would have been the only issue as how much difference would there be in price between italian aesa and klj7a?

You cannot integrate Chinese BVR missiles with Western radars, and vice versa. Hence the problem.

 

[The Raven]

You cannot integrate Chinese BVR missiles with Western radars, and vice versa. Hence the problem.

The main reason for not going with Grigo E or Vixen 1000E was the issue with integrating Chinese missiles and weapons, and sufficient ToT (e.g. source codes). The PAF has had extensive experience with Grifo radars (J-7P/PG) so it was a natural choice, but from Leonardo's point of view they would have preferred not to sell the radars without the chance of tying in the PAF to a weapons package ecosystem as well, rather than just the radar. The Chinese option allowed more flexibility in terms of ToT and customisation with PAF developed weapons and systems.

 

[Moon]

Hi,

Any given nation's military is desperate to train against an opposing nation's different military hardware---and you did not know that.

That's a big possiblity, I didn't think of that one.