Exploring India

[nair]

@KRAIT nice thread buddy.... was late to explore this .... Thank god its going good....

 

[KRAIT]

@KRAIT nice thread buddy.... was late to explore this .... Thank god its going good....

Thanks buddy.

If you have any interesting things to tell us about local customs and traditions. Do share with us. It will add first person account, a personal aspect to this thread.

Just put the disclaimer stating its your own experience.

 

[anant_s]

Biryani is a Pakistani Dish as well

Indeed is!
Infact my wife's late maternal grandmother (their father's family had migrated from Pakistan to Gwalior) told us stories of amazing rice dishes in pakistan, Biryani included. Ours is a vegetarian Family and hence i haven't tasted any authentic biryani yet (vegetarian versions they tell are cheap imitations).

Also i'll share one story from my college life.
I used to travel between Kota (family was near Kota) and Agra fort stations during my under-graduate days on Neemuch Agra fort passenger train. During one such journey, two scottish tourists boarded the train at Sawai Madhopur. Mum used to give packed Aloo subzi and Parathas for travel. As usual i opended tiffin and offered the scotts a bite. The lady was little vary of spices but accepted it and i could see them asking for more as the 4 parathas were devoured in no time. Seeing this, a sindhi family also offered Famous Pyaaz Kachoris (they are terribly spicy even for Indian palate) but as they say Sher ke muh Khoon lag gaya. The whole night was spent joking and laughing much to discomfort of other passengers.
Next morning as we were getting down at Agra Fort Station, the scotts thanked for spicy food and said they got to see real India and real Indians for the first time and expressed their desire to return back to India.
I knew they would have surely been back for Kachoris.

(Yes yes Gluttony is a sin, but then i ain't any angel either)

 

[KRAIT]

@anant_s Great story buddy. My hometown is Sawai Madhopur. Agra is also where our relatives live.

 

[Marshmallow]

@anant_s Great story buddy. My hometown is Sawai Madhopur. Agra is also where our relatives live.

KRAIT its coz of me dat u got to hear dat great story say thnx to me!

Indeed is!
Infact my wife's late maternal grandmother (their father's family had migrated from Pakistan to Gwalior) told us stories of amazing rice dishes in pakistan, Biryani included. Ours is a vegetarian Family and hence i haven't tasted any authentic biryani yet (vegetarian versions they tell are cheap imitations).

Also i'll share one story from my college life.
I used to travel between Kota (family was near Kota) and Agra fort stations during my under-graduate days on Neemuch Agra fort passenger train. During one such journey, two scottish tourists boarded the train at Sawai Madhopur. Mum used to give packed Aloo subzi and Parathas for travel. As usual i opended tiffin and offered the scotts a bite. The lady was little vary of spices but accepted it and i could see them asking for more as the 4 parathas were devoured in no time. Seeing this, a sindhi family also offered Famous Pyaaz Kachoris (they are terribly spicy even for Indian palate) but as they say Sher ke muh Khoon lag gaya. The whole night was spent joking and laughing much to discomfort of other passengers.
Next morning as we were getting down at Agra Fort Station, the scotts thanked for spicy food and said they got to see real India and real Indians for the first time and expressed their desire to return back to India.
I knew they would have surely been back for Kachoris.

yes Pakistani Biryani is very popular,if u have it once ull like to hav it every sunday

Kachoriz i dun know much abt but yeh our food is spicy n delicious....

wat other Pakistani food hav u tried?

here in Isl,there is a resturant dat serves som Indian dishes...

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

KRAIT its coz of me dat u got to hear dat great story say thnx to me!




yes Pakistani Biryani is very popular,if u have it once ull like to hav it every sunday

Kachoriz i dun know much abt but yeh our food is spicy n delicious....

wat other Pakistani food hav u tried?

here in Isl,there is a resturant dat serves som Indian dishes...

le thanks mere taraf se bhi le le tu

 

[anant_s]

KRAIT its coz of me dat u got to hear dat great story say thnx to me!





Kachoriz i dun know much abt but yeh our food is spicy n delicious....

Ok along with thanks i'll introduce you to another delicacy from my Hometown Agra. its called Petha and is sinfully adictive

With an already sweet name, i don't no if you need anymore sugar, but hey what do i know, hope you have sweet tooth (infact 32 of them )

 

[Joe Shearer]

<sigh>

As you wish.

Since apparently you wish to take refuge in an inability to understand plain English, let us walk through the sequence. The casus belli appears to have been the following post of mine:

An interesting reaction. In my view, universities were a Buddhism phenomenon, not Hindu. I cannot think of a Hindu university. This is not a studied or informed response; anybody with facts to the contrary is welcome to cite those.

We cannot blame the Brahmins for the universities ;-) but we can remember that the Buddhists were inveterate wanderers Nd traveled widely bearing the Buddha's message.

To which we have a surmise; an intelligent surmise, but nothing more. There is no record, of any kind, of how these 'universities' were formed or first began. The word 'universities' is put in inverted commas to show that these are being compRed, centuries later, to institutions of a precise and particular nature, without implying that the ancient Indian institutions and the mediaeval European institutions were the same, even, without implying that the ancient institutions and modern bodies of higher learning were the same.

It may be noted that the following had two elements, one about the nature of the universities, whether they were exclusively Buddhist or there were Hindu universities as well, the other about the commonality between Hindu and Buddhist philosophy and theology. The second theme was dropped by mutual consent; that might even be phrased by mutual contempt, and remain accurate.

......that part was said in jest but these institutions were not created in vacuum.

Institution building and natural evolution of schools into universities was my main point. Buddhist philosophy and institutions were built on the existing Hindu culture that existed earlier and partnered it.

Evolution of Buddhist philosophy and related intuition building follows same path as the evolution of the Upanishads using astika and nastika school of thought. Its follows the same six chief philosophical systems (saddarsana) in Hinduism i.e Mimamsa, Vedanta, Sankhya, Yoga, Nyaya and Vaisesika. If you look at major Buddhis philosophical works by Nagarjuna, Dignaga, Dharmakirti and Dharmottara you can see the easily see the influence of Hindu school of thought.

One of the most important factors that helped building these universities was active seeking of patronage of the state by the buddhists monks.

Apparently zaxcolix believes that these were Hindu institutions popularized and enhanced greatly by Buddhist monks seeking royal patronage for their expansion. There is no shred of evidence that there was ever such an approach. There is considerable evidence that kings backed these on their own. However, we digress.

I commented purely about the claimed organic relationship between Hindu and Buddhist philosophy and theology.

This is not accurate. There were connections, but the contradictions were so huge that they obscure all else.

Can you expand on that ? .......or even point me in the right direction...

Is this still a question? I ask because even a preliminary reply is likely to take time and be of some length.

An historian would look at the dates relevant to Hindu philosophical development, and the dates of the Buddha and the development of his philosophy, and would cautiously conclude that their period of efflorescence were both in the same period, the 5th to the 9th century AD; an anthropologist would consider the social and cultural conditions of Indian society at the time, and point - smugly - to the common matrix from which both sprang; someone mildly familiar with the term 'yoga' would feel puzzled that there was any controversy, since systems of philosophy belonging to both religions use the term, and apparently use it in the same context; another person deeper conversant with the philosophy and practice of yoga in both religions would be alarmed at this superficial identification, and point urgently to the radical differences between the conception of both sides; a student of comparative religion would look at the basic concepts of the two faith systems and find irreconcilable differences, differences first enunciated by the Buddha himself; but the final word would belong to the philosopher, even more, to the student of the differentiated philosophy of the two religions.

This exchange above led us to realize that there was no common ground from which the problem could be studied. The question regarding philosophy was dropped.

Here I seek to question the urban legends surrounding Takshasila.

I believe that my post clearly indicates that Chanakya's role as Chandragupta's advisor depends on literary references and not on historical evidence. In other words, there is no historical proof.

The four references were due to a mention in Trautmann.

.....'so little is known about what went on there. There is doubt even that there was a physical focus to the learning that went on there. It is possible that scholars and learned men were found there in abnormal numbers, and aspiring students went there from all over to learn. However, what is really dubious and questionable is the association of famous names from legend with this legend of a university.

Chanakya, for instance. There are literary references in four places of his role as Chandragupta's advisor. These are not historically proven, although cited by many texts as the best possible information that we have about the reign and the circumstances of coming to power of Chandragupta Maurya. There is no evidence that the Arthasastra was composed by him.

One can go on.

There is no evidence of historical worth about Charaka having taught at Takshashila, other than an overheated account by Radhakumud Mukherjee, in his books on education in early India and on Ashoka and his times, followed by another author, little known by himself, who makes similar claims. The following is dead flat wrong:



Most of these claims go back to literary references which are obscure and difficult to interpret. A news report that Amartya Sen delivered a lecture at Kolkata need not go on to prove that he was an eminent teacher of economics at Kolkata University.

Please also read the allusion to literary references in the last paragraph.

A very strange note follows. Nowhere was it denied that references to Chanakya, and the others, do exist. It was pointed out that these references were not historical, they belonged to the realm of literature.

So how is this wrong?

One can continue to insinuate all this is legend and not facts. But truth is those 4 independent references does speak about Chanakya-Chandragupta story and also places chanakya as an Acharya (Teacher) in Taksashila during rule of Hindu Nanda Empire.

Those text also mention the following:
Chankya came from magadha to Takshila university along with one reference letter as well as 50 gold coins after death of his father.
He was one of excellent student in that university and that he spent 10 years in that university.
Chankya has three close friends in that university.
1. Siharan belongs to Mallapriya kingdom
2. Mehar belongs to persia.
3. Saranga Rao distinction student in that university.

Arthashastra mentions its author who’s gotra name is Kautilya and personal name is Vishnu Gupta. Worst insinuation against him is that Arthashastra is not an original work but is a compilation of texts of those age and edited by Kautilya. Now if you are going to tell us the Chankya was not Kautilya then it’s a whole new ball game.




History puts 4 distinguished Hindus in Taksashila, Panini (famous Sanskrit grammarian), Kautilya (Chanakya), Chandragupta Maurya and Charaka (Ayurveda).

You choose to believe these are fake legends and Taksashila was a Buddhist institution even though it was built 100 years before Buddha was born, and existed in a 4000 year old Hindu civilization. To each to his own.

The first sentence above sets the tone.

One side has made insinuations, called certain claims 'legend'. The other side responds by re-affirming that those are all facts. If now we are to take every play, every scriptural work as historical and authentic, why have a discipline of history at all? Later, we shall take a look at these famous 'independent' references.

Now, now, we mustn't get hysterical.

There is no question of insinuation. There is not a single historical record. Not one. If you have one to cite, please do so.

You are evidently citing the four distinct references listed in Wikipedia, which says the following: <=




If this is history to you, no doubt in a future reference, you will not find it difficult to cite the TV serial and its bizarre narrative. But such accounts, indirect references in plays and religious books, do not count towards historical evidence, except when we seek to glorify one aspect of India and put it on a pedestal above the others. The detailed circumstances that you quote so credulously have as little basis as the original reference.

And you apparently are familiar with the weaknesses of the historical narrative about Chanakya, and that there is not a single reference in contemporary accounts, or by himself, to the identity of Chanakya with the author of the Arthashastra, who calls himself Kautilya, elsewhere Vishnugupta. If he was Chanakya, why would he not say so?



History does no such thing. There is no record of Panini having taught at Takshasila, and he was among the first residents of Takshasila, which was a camp, then a trding centre, then a town and a city long before it hosted a university. The references to Kautilya do not exist, and I am glad that you had the decency to place Chanakya in brackets after Kautilya, since there are those four references to Chanakya and none to Kautilya.

Chandragupta Maurya was never a student at Takshasila, except in this concocted account that you seem to have made up on the fly; at best, they met each other there.

Charaka may or may not have resided at Takshasila, leave alone taught there. There is not a shred of evidence that he either lived there or taught there, although there is information about his work, disconnected from any place.



I never said that Takshashila was a Buddhist institution from the outset. You seem to be confused about Takshasila the town and Takshasila the supposed university. The town is ancient, and we know from hearsay, not from historical evidence, that Panini may have lived there.

Or he may not. Xuan Zang reports that a statue of him stood in his birthplace, Pushkalavati, and we may hope that even propagandists know that Pushkalavati is not Takshasila. Panini's dates vary; in the absence of concrete information, we have to speculate about his dates. These may have been the later part of the sixth century BC, which puts him roughly contemporary with the Buddha; on the other hand, he may have lived as late as the fifth century BC.

Takshasila itself may have been later than either Panini or the Buddha. It is difficult to decipher your reference to the town being built one hundred years before the Buddha. How does a place dated to the 5th century BC precede a religious figure dated the 6th century BC? Except to those who have forgotten that in this form of dating, the 6th century is older than the 5th century.

So you see, there is nothing to prevent Takshasila from having been Buddhist from the inception. I neither said so, nor do I think so; you just concocted that bit for popular effect, and I am glad you did, so that other readers can evaluate the quality of your inputs. As it happens, I do not think that there was any Buddhist influence in that institution until the time of the Kushans, whom the Chinese called the Yueh Chi, and who ruled those parts long after the Mauryas.

The reference to a 4000 year old Hindu civilization is baffling; how is it relevant, other than as a roll of the drums?

The post above refers to a Wikipedia citation of Trautmann, which seems to have been the source for much of the post before this one. Trautmann is, in fact, the only one to patiently track references to Chanakya; other historians naturally have not spent time on matters which do not apperception on historical record.

My point remains intact: there are only these four cited references in Trautmann, also cited in the Wikipedia article. It is clear that there is no historical record linking Chandragupta and Chanakya. It is clear that zaxcolix wants the scope of historically acceptable to be extended to plays and scriptural writings.

Well, good luck to him. This still does not become part of history. Not yet, and it has nothing to do with me.

Please observe what follows.

@Joe Shearer: This is what your said “There are literary references in four places of his role as Chandragupta's advisor”

Kindly spell out those literary references that places Chnakya as chandragupta’s advisor, unless of course you are free to insinuate and are not required to provide any authenticated references.

Your condescending attitude to gain credibility is funny. You build a classic straw man argument by again insinuating wiki and further go on to insinuate my ‘future’ belief if TV serials. It’s frankly disgusting.

In absence of historical text, Mudrarakshasa based on Buddhist text Mahanamthero is also acceptable evidence. Similarity between Chanakya Niti sastra, Chanakya Sutra and Artha Shastra is another reason why Chanakya is considered same as Kautilya. And yes, I would give credence to even such ancient records and tradition where chanakya is identified with Kautilya. It is also possible chanakya and Kautilya were different people living in different age.

Again you choose to believe Panini, who lived near Takshashila, had nothing to do with the Takshashila university. I choose to believe otherwise.

Taksashila had other famous Alumni as well, Jyotipal the commander of armed forces of the king of Varanasi, the physician Jeevak of King Bimbisar, Prasannajeet king of the state of Kaushal. Jeevak was also the physician for Gautama Buddha …putting Taksashila university in a time before Buddha.



LOL back at you ....you can start by giving evidence of what your have stated before asking for some. You can start to reclaim your credibility by those proofs before claiming to be different from "citizen of a nation of clerks and government servants whose productive lives were governed strictly by their own dates".

I am asked to provide the four literary references, failing which I should have failed to provide 'authenticated' references.

This is baffling. As far as I can see, there was nothing ambiguous about my clear statement that a literary reference is not an authentic historical reference. So where does the question of authenticating the inauthentic come in?

There are other mistakes and misconceptions but this is the primary fallacy: that unless black is proved to be white, black cannot be proved to be black. That unless I can authenticate my allusion to literary references, my point that literary references are not legitimate historical references will fail. It is difficult to understand this, especially when I have already mentioned what these four references were.

Oh, certainly. They are the same four that you yourself cited, after I mentioned them in my own post.

The difference is that these are not authenticated references, which is why I referred to them as literary references, not as historical references.

Clearly, you neither know nor understand the difference.




Why? If you quote a reference in Mudrarakshasa, what stops you from citing the TV serial next?



Oh? Based on your decision to change how an entire discipline views its sources and authorities? When do you propose to introduce the Ramayana as an history text?



If you are happy to jump to such conclusions based on 'similarities' that you detect, and perhaps on the identification made in the Panchatantra, all the best to you. I doubt that this decision of yours will cause any earthquakes in academic circles, to be quite honest. You are aware that the disconnect between Kautilya and Chanakya has been established, and that the Chanakya Niti Shastra is of doubtful provenance.




I quite understand and deeply sympathize. You will, then, use either contradictory position depending on your need of the moment. Very sound.



When we know he lived in Pushkalavati, why are we dragging him off to Takshashila? On what authority?



If they were contemporaneous, that need not be a given. It is clear that you are conflating the town and the university.



Unlike others, I am not a hedge scholar. After years spent in business management, I am now back in academics, serving as Dean of Humanities at a university. You will agree that it gives me some credibility in academic matters.

And in case your annoyance and irritation have completely overwhelmed you, you might care to remember that I stated that most of your claims had no foundation.

It is difficult to understand how you wish me to substantiate, or prove, that your statements have no foundations. How do I prove the absence of something other than by pointing to the absence?

Which part of the post above is not logical or clear? But watch the response.

@Joe Shearer: LOL ...... not good enough. Please quote me in which specific text and where it mentions that Chnakya was chandragupta’s advisor. After all you are the one claiming to be 'Dean of Humanities at a university (yet unknown)' who spends his time in pak defence forum . I am a mere pleb. I was not aware that discussions in pdf had the potential to cause 'earthquakes in academic circles'. Maybe that is why you come here often ..... Next time I see such an earthquakes ...I know who to credit it with.

In any case, now that you have claimed to know Panini lived in Pushkalavati please provide authenticated evidence of the same.

This should be an interesting experience.


On a separate note my objective was to prove Taksashila was a Hindu university. Readers can decide for themselves.



I did say it was not surprising ...was it surprising to you ?

So since I made the statement that references to Chanakya being Chandragupta's advisor are not authentic references, I am in some way obliged to prove that he was!

Does that make sense?

The rest of the peculiar assertions, Panini and Charaka, later.

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

^ i REFUSE TO read SUCH A HUGE POST

 

[Joe Shearer]

Read it in sections.

 

[anant_s]

wat other Pakistani food hav u tried?

here in Isl,there is a resturant dat serves som Indian dishes...

Not very many, but Mughalai cuisine, if you ask elder people in old delhi say, is a common heritage of both India and Pakistan.

I also heard stories of some famous food street Gol Mandi in Lahore (i don't remember name correctly) that people say is akin to pilgrimage if you are foodie

 

[priti]

Go to belur halebid in Karnataka, i went there a few months ago and was very impressed with the detailed rock carving done a fw centuries ago.

 

[scorpionx]

Indian Classical Dances

India has thousands of year old tradition of fine arts and classical and folk music and dances. Some of the world-famous dance forms that originated and evolved in India are Bharatnatyam, Kathak, Kathakali, Kuchipudi, Manipuri, Mohiniattam and Odissi. All these dance forms use basically the same 'mudras' or signs of hand as a common language of expression and were originally performed in the temples to entertain various Gods and Goddesses. They were also effective in carrying forward the various mythological stories from generation to generation while entertaining the audiences. It eventually became a part of 'Natya Shashtra', as propounded by Sage Bharata to compile and forge some rules and regulations of entertaining arts.

With time, the classical dances evolved to include the expressions and themes from social life and experiences. Lord Shiva is said to be the 'Nataraja' meaning 'King of All Dances', who is said to perform the Cosmic Dance that delicately balances life and death and all that is happening in the Universe in harmonious cycles. Bharatnatyam, popular in Tamil Nadu and Karnataka, is said to be revealed by Lord Brahma to Bharata. Kathak is the art to tell a story and is a form of North Indian classical dance. Later, it became courtly entertainment.

Kathakali from Kerala makes use of colorful masks and costumes and belongs to Kerala. Kuchipudi is the dance drama of Andhra Pradesh that combines Natya, Nritta and Nritya. Manipuri, as the name suggests, is from Manipur, the Northeastern state of India, and is a combination of many dances prevalent in the region. Mohiniattam from Kerala is a solo female dance and is known for its rhythmic and unbroken flow of the body movements. Odissi from Orissa is a dance of love, joy and intense passion.

Bharatnatyam
Bharatnatyam is one of the most popular classical Indian dances. Bharatnatyam is more popular in South Indian states of Tamil Nadu and Karnataka. Bharatnatyam dance is almost 2,000 years old. It is believed that Bharatnatyam was revealed by Lord Brahma to Bharata, a famous sage who then codified this sacred dance in a Sanskrit text called the Natya Shastra. The Natya Shastra is one of the fundamental treatises on Indian drama and aesthetics.

Kathak
Kathak is one of the most important classical dances of India. Kathak is said to be derived from the word katha, meaning "the art of storytelling." The Kathak dance form originated in north India and was very similar to the Bharatnatyam dance form. In ancient India, there were Kathakars or bards who used to recite religious and mythological tales to the accompaniment music, mime and dance.

Kathakali
Kathakali is the classical dance form of Kerala. The word Kathakali literally means "Story-Play". Kathakali is known for its heavy, elaborate makeup and costumes. In fact, the colorful and fascinating costumes of Kathakali have become the most recognized icon of Kerala. Kathakali is considered as one of the most magnificent theatres of imagination and creativity. Kathakali dance presents themes derived from the Ramayana, the Mahabharata and other Hindu epics, mythologies and legends.

Kuchipudi
Kuchipudi is one of the classical dance forms of the South India. Kuchipudi derives its name from the Kuchipudi village of Andhra Pradesh. In the seventeenth century the Kuchipudi village was presented to the Brahmins, who were experts in staging dance and drama. Kuchipudi exhibits scenes from the Hindu Epics, legends and mythological tales through a combination of music, dance and acting. Like other classical dances, Kuchipudi also comprises pure dance, mime and histrionics but it is the use of speech that distinguishes Kuchipudi's presentation as dance drama.

Manipuri
Manipuri is one of the six major classical dances of India. Manipuri dance is indigenous to Manipur, the North eastern state of India. The Manipuri dance style is inextricably woven into the life pattern of Manipuri people. The most striking part of Manipur dance is its colorful decoration, lightness of dancing foot, delicacy of abhinaya (drama), lilting music and poetic charm. The Manipuri dance form is mostly ritualistic and draws heavily from the rich culture of the state of Manipur.

Mohiniattam
Mohiniattam is a classical dance form of Kerala. Mohiniattam is derived from the words "Mohini" (meaning beautiful women) and "attam"(meaning dance). Thus, Mohiniattam dance form is a beautiful feminine style with surging flow of body movements. Mohiniattam dance in Kerala developed in the tradition of Devadasi system, which later grew and developed a classical status.

Odissi
Odissi is one of the famous classical Indian dances from Orissa state. The history of Odissi dance is almost two thousand years old. Odissi is a highly inspired, passionate, ecstatic and sensuous form of dance. Like most of the South Indian classical dances of India Odissi too had its origin in the Devadasi tradition. The state of Orissa has a great cultural history.

Indian Classical Dances - Classical Indian Dances - India Classical Dances - Traditional Dances Of India

 

[Marshmallow]

Ok along with thanks i'll introduce you to another delicacy from my Hometown Agra. its called Petha and is sinfully adictive

With an already sweet name, i don't no if you need anymore sugar, but hey what do i know, hope you have sweet tooth (infact 32 of them )

Thanks for da Mithai...

Not very many, but Mughalai cuisine, if you ask elder people in old delhi say, is a common heritage of both India and Pakistan.

I also heard stories of some famous food street Gol Mandi in Lahore (i don't remember name correctly) that people say is akin to pilgrimage if you are foodie

yep Food Street of Lahore is popular for all kinds of food of all parts of Pakistan is available at one place....dun know abt Gol Mandi though

such food streets hav been opend in other areas of Lhr as well as in other cities of Pak...it gained such popularity....

 

[A.Rafay]

Thanks for da Mithai...



yep Food Street of Lahore is popular for all kinds of food of all parts of Pakistan is available at one place....dun know abt Gol Mandi though

such food streets hav been opend in other areas of Lhr as well as in other cities of Pak...it gained such popularity....

Food street in karachi is the most popular in Pakistan! it is build on a Bridge on sea! Sea food and other pakistani food is popular there! Its Called Port grand!