Featured Ex PN Chief Zafar Mehmood Abbasi highlighted PN modernization

[time pass]

Tbh, the whole "destroyer" classification is kinda irrelevant. I.e the Chinese call the 055 a destroyer but the Us call it a cruiser. If the PN wanted a heavier tonnage vessel, we are talking 6000t+, we should be looking for something with the ability to handle saturation attacks effectively, surplus/used 052ds are ideal and an export variant of them could be on the cards, if not, Italian FREMMs however, while swapping Aster 15 for CAMM-ER, Aster 15 is an awful choice in light of camm. 8 or 16 cells dedicated to quadpacked CAMM-ER and then the rest to ASTER-30. However, another option is an Ada based heavier tonnage ship(i have discussed this in a quwa article: https://quwa.org/2020/09/06/analysis-ideas-on-how-pakistan-can-leverage-the-milgem-ada-2/ )
If all else fails, the TF2000 AAW frigate/destroyer will always be an option. In fact, we have seen Turkish efforts to market it abroad already. Damen also has the omega frigate on offer- something we can also consider. At the end of the day, id prefer the PN tried to design their own hull and then intergrated COTS components onto the ship, allowing for them to gain vital design experience which can be used with maximum indigenous components down the line.

IMO, keeping in view the budget constrains & recent shopping spree, PN should opt lease options on soft loan basis & eye on PLAN old DDGs;

02 - 52B (Currently under upgradation phase)
01 - 51B (Recently upgraded)
02 - 51C (yet to be upgraded)
04 - SOUVs (1 upgraded, 1 is currently under upgradation phase, remaining 2 will be in next phase).

There are rumors circling around in PN quarters quite a while now (since few years) for having few DDGs from above mentioned list but don't know the current status....

 

[Akh1112]

IMO, keeping in view the budget constrains & recent shopping spree, PN should opt lease options on soft loan basis & eye on PLAN old DDGs;

02 - 52B (Currently under upgradation phase)
01 - 51B (Recently upgraded)
02 - 51C (yet to be upgraded)
04 - SOUVs (1 upgraded, 1 is currently under upgradation phase, remaining 2 will be in next phase).

There are rumors circling around in PN quarters quite a while now (since few years) for having few DDGs from above mentioned list but don't know the current status....

052B's are too young atm to be retired, same issue with 051C's, in terms of 051B's it doesn't really bring anything the 054A/P doesn't. Uses the same H/AJK-16 VLS setup which is only compatible with HHQ-16, a relatively obsolete missile(its not a BAD missile, however, it is very big for what it is, IMO, the 3-5 missile which has been in the works for a while (Sino quadpack ESSM) would be the best replacement for the HHQ-16, bringing similar range, while 4x the capacity. I had discussed the possibility of an export 052D with a PLA expert, Rick Joe, and he seems to think that there will be an export variant of it around 2025. I will attach a snippet of the conversation below.

 

[FuturePAF]

I hope as part of the modernization we get access to or have our own satellites that can track all the ships and aircrafts in our area of operations. Something similar to what this Chinese satellite can do.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1325377922228629507

 

[Tipu7]

IMO, keeping in view the budget constrains & recent shopping spree, PN should opt lease options on soft loan basis & eye on PLAN old DDGs;

02 - 52B (Currently under upgradation phase)
01 - 51B (Recently upgraded)
02 - 51C (yet to be upgraded)
04 - SOUVs (1 upgraded, 1 is currently under upgradation phase, remaining 2 will be in next phase).

There are rumors circling around in PN quarters quite a while now (since few years) for having few DDGs from above mentioned list but don't know the current status....

None of them ... PN is not eyeing any thing 'old' in PLAN inventory.

 

[Falcon26]

I hope as part of the modernization we get access to or have our own satellites that can track all the ships in our area of operations. Something similar to what this Chinese satellite can do.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1325377922228629507

This is unbelievable! Can other satellites do the same? Such a capability will transform aerial battles @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

 

[FuturePAF]

I also hope we are working on our own sonar nets similar to what the Russians are developing.

 

[FuturePAF]

Could the heavier frigate/destroyer the outgoing Admiral was hinting at be an updated version of the Damen De Zeven Provinces Class AAW frigate (~6000 tons) or its derivative in the German navy the F-124 Class?

 

[Akh1112]

Could the heavier frigate/destroyer the outgoing Admiral was hinting at be an updated version of the Damen De Zeven Provinces Class AAW frigate (~6000 tons) or its derivative in the German navy the F-124 Class?

IMO, the likeliest option is the Italian FREMM. It has the systems the PN wants and its ITAR free, it would have weapons commonality between the Jinnah's and Ada's. Otherwise it will be a 052D based design, for which we should see an export variant mid 2020, maybe 2027. FREMM is more focused towards a multimission role whereas DZPC focuses on AAW and BMD, you can see this by its weapons loadout and radar loadout. SCN class also suffers from similar ailments, primarily ITAR. Their AAW focus is not a big deal, ITAR however is. FREMM, 052D or the dark horse TF2000 AAW FFG are the likeliest options i see tbh, equipped with ASTER-30(the new variant should have vastly improved range and BMD capabilities) or a HHQ-9 equipped 052D.

 

[FuturePAF]

IMO, the likeliest option is the Italian FREMM. It has the systems the PN wants and its ITAR free, it would have weapons commonality between the Jinnah's and Ada's. Otherwise it will be a 052D based design, for which we should see an export variant mid 2020, maybe 2027. FREMM is more focused towards a multimission role whereas DZPC focuses on AAW and BMD, you can see this by its weapons loadout and radar loadout. SCN class also suffers from similar ailments, primarily ITAR. Their AAW focus is not a big deal, ITAR however is. FREMM, 052D or the dark horse TF2000 AAW FFG are the likeliest options i see tbh, equipped with ASTER-30(the new variant should have vastly improved range and BMD capabilities) or a HHQ-9 equipped 052D.

CAMM-ER I believe is an Italian lead product, which at 45 km range could be a more affordable option then the Aster 15, if we go for the Italian FREMM design.

What is the status of the Aster-30? I know it is a MBDA product. Does that mean it has a significant French content, which could be cutoff due to our political stances? I do agree that the Aster 30 is a formidable system.

 

[Akh1112]

CAMM-ER I believe is an Italian lead product, which at 45 km range could be a more affordable option then the Aster 15, if we go for the Italian FREMM design.

What is the status of the Aster-30? I know it is a MBDA product. Does that mean it has a significant French content, which could be cutoff due to our political stances? I do agree that the Aster 30 is a formidable system.

ASTER-15 is an awful missile in light of CAMM and is a waste of space. The loadout should be CAMM-ER+A30, as opposed to the ASTER-15+30 loadout. In terms of ASTER-30, it has been exhibited at IDEAS, therefore should be ok to go for. They offer SAMP/T, ASTER etc. The new developments of aster are a JV with Fr and IT, meaning the latter should be ok to export to us.

 

[FuturePAF]

ASTER-15 is an awful missile in light of CAMM and is a waste of space. The loadout should be CAMM-ER+A30, as opposed to the ASTER-15+30 loadout. In terms of ASTER-30, it has been exhibited at IDEAS, therefore should be ok to go for. They offer SAMP/T, ASTER etc. The new developments of aster are a JV with Fr and IT, meaning the latter should be ok to export to us.

The Italian design only has room to fit 32 VLS cells. Surely, that is too low considering the salvos that could be fired upon her. Im sure a modified design would be customized, especially if the CAMM-ER is used, with its smaller cells. Perhaps a design that could leave room for at least 32 CAMM-ER and 32 ASTER-30s

Considering the Italian FREMM design, or to be more accurate a modified variant, will be the basis for the next generation American frigate, much can be designed into our Frigates that have been learned from the work on the American program.

 

[Akh1112]

The Italian design only has room to fit 32 VLS cells. Surely, that is too low considering the salvos that could be fired upon her. Im sure a modified design would be customized, especially if the CAMM-ER is used, with its smaller cells. Perhaps a design that could leave room for at least 32 CAMM-ER and 32 ASTER-30s

Considering the Italian FREMM design, or to be more accurate a modified variant, will be the basis for the next generation American frigate, much can be designed into our Frigates that have been learned from the work on the American program.

So while the Italian and french GP/ASW variants do have fine VLS setups for their tonnage, the actual hull can accept more. Infact, the French have 2 under construction that contain 32 A50 and 16 A70 cells, the latter for Land attack. Now, the Italians could modify FREMM to our needs to a similar design, it will be expensive, however, its a sold all-round vessel, not suffering from some of the shortfalls that other Euro ships suffer from when it comes to AAW/BMD. However, tbh, its a matter of cost v benefit, you can get a 052D for around 550-600m. However, the FREMM is a far nicer all around ship vs the 052D which does have its focus in AAW, whereas FREMM has a stellar ASW suite.

 

[FuturePAF]

So while the Italian and french GP/ASW variants do have fine VLS setups for their tonnage, the actual hull can accept more. Infact, the French have 2 under construction that contain 32 A50 and 16 A70 cells, the latter for Land attack. Now, the Italians could modify FREMM to our needs to a similar design, it will be expensive, however, its a sold all-round vessel, not suffering from some of the shortfalls that other Euro ships suffer from when it comes to AAW/BMD. However, tbh, its a matter of cost v benefit, you can get a 052D for around 550-600m. However, the FREMM is a far nicer all around ship vs the 052D which does have its focus in AAW, whereas FREMM has a stellar ASW suite.

I hope they go for the FREMM to keep that supply stream of advanced European systems coming to the PN, while the Milgem/Jinnah Class can feed Turkish advancements into the Navy and the Type 054A/P can feed advancements from Chinese industry into the PN. An all round ship has more grow potential in areas we may not be currently able to anticipate as AI enabled drones and weapons will invariably be used by potential adversaries in the decades to come.

P.S. the CAMM-ER maybe a great missile to integrate into the Milgem/Jinnah Class as well as the F-22P as part of a midlife refit, due to its compact size.

 

[syed_yusuf]

6 bigger opv/ distroyer will be of multi mission marine vehicle. A distroyer size ship with various missions to stamp Pakistan stamp on IoR.

 

[Akh1112]

I hope they go for the FREMM to keep that supply stream of advanced European systems coming to the PN, while the Milgem/Jinnah Class can feed Turkish advancements into the Navy and the Type 054A/P can feed advancements from Chinese industry into the PN. An all round ship has more grow potential in areas we may not be currently able to anticipate as AI enabled drones and weapons will invariably be used by potential adversaries in the decades to come.

P.S. the CAMM-ER maybe a great missile to integrate into the Milgem/Jinnah Class as well as the F-22P as part of a midlife refit, due to its compact size.

We could always buy the gear from them and adapt them to a hull we buy from elsewhere. I.e Thailand and their entirely western 053h3s. FREMMs will get really pricey really quick.