Featured Ex PN Chief Zafar Mehmood Abbasi highlighted PN modernization

[FuturePAF]

We could always buy the gear from them and adapt them to a hull we buy from elsewhere. I.e Thailand and their entirely western 053h3s. FREMMs will get really pricey really quick.

Perhaps some of the systems, but we not be able to get some key systems like the CAPTAS 4 VDS/towed array, and other key systems like that. If we can get all the sub-systems I agree a cheaper hull with the best sub-systems is the way to go.

 

[The Raven]

There hasn't been much in the way of further details or discussion on the ' ship-based long range anti-ship and land attack P-282 ballistic missile', as outlined in the previous outgoing naval chief's address.

If some of the reports are correct, the Type 054APs will be equipped with the export version of the YJ-12 supersonic ramjet AShM, the CM302, but this is not a 'ballistic' missile in the traditional sense. If there is significant ToT and local production, this could allow offshoots of other ramjet missiles for alternative roles; however, it's unlikely the P-282 will simply be a locally produced version of the CM302.

If the 'ballistic' aspect is correct, this would certainly be a fairly novel concept in terms of a surface vessel based ballistic missile. To my understanding, only the Indians have really tried to integrate a 'ballistic' missile, the 'Prithvi', on a surface naval vessel, with limited genuine operational capability given the technical constraints of operating a liquid fuelled ballistic missile from a rolling and pitching surface vessel. None of the other major powers have ever seriously considered this approach.

In my view, this could be something that has been 'lost in translation', i.e. it could be a significantly modified version of the CM302 with a 'booster' section providing VLS launch capability followed by a hypersonic cruise phase. However, if it is a genuine 'ballistic' missile, it could be a modified CM-400AKG, which itself is essentially an air-launched ballistic missile with hypersonic terminal velocity. A booster section could be attached to the CM-400AKG to allow for VLS launch capability from a surface vessel, followed by a traditional ballistic flight trajectory, and the hypersonic manoeuvrability of the terminal phase of the CM-400AKG.

 

[Falcon26]

There hasn't been much in the way of further details or discussion on the ' ship-based long range anti-ship and land attack P-282 ballistic missile', as outlined in the previous outgoing naval chief's address.

If some of the reports are correct, the Type 054APs will be equipped with the export version of the YJ-12 supersonic ramjet AShM, the CM302, but this is not a 'ballistic' missile in the traditional sense. If there is significant ToT and local production, this could allow offshoots of other ramjet missiles for alternative roles; however, it's unlikely the P-282 will simply be a locally produced version of the CM302.

If the 'ballistic' aspect is correct, this would certainly be a fairly novel concept in terms of a surface vessel based ballistic missile. To my understanding, only the Indians have really tried to integrate a 'ballistic' missile, the 'Prithvi', on a surface naval vessel, with limited genuine operational capability given the technical constraints of operating a liquid fuelled ballistic missile from a rolling and pitching surface vessel. None of the other major powers have ever seriously considered this approach.

In my view, this could be something that has been 'lost in translation', i.e. it could be a significantly modified version of the CM302 with a 'booster' section providing VLS launch capability followed by a hypersonic cruise phase. However, if it is a genuine 'ballistic' missile, it could be a modified CM-400AKG, which itself is essentially an air-launched ballistic missile with hypersonic terminal velocity. A booster section could be attached to the CM-400AKG to allow for VLS launch capability from a surface vessel, followed by a traditional ballistic flight trajectory, and the hypersonic manoeuvrability of the terminal phase of the CM-400AKG.

The PN chief never said anything about a ballistic missile. This is something that people have interpreted their own way. He clearly said a hypersonic missile. Any notion that it’s a ballistic missile is a speculation.

 

[HRK]

The PN chief never said anything about a ballistic missile

video is time stamp

 

[Falcon26]

video is time stamp

Thanks. I didn’t know this.

I stand corrected

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The (former) CNS Admiral Zafar Mehmood Abbasi reveals in his farewell address that the PN is procuring 4 MILGEM Ada corvettes from Turkey. Delivery timeline is between 2023-2025.
The key takeaway is that design and engineering technology transfer will take place and the FIFTH (5th) ship will be the Jinnah-class frigate and will be Pakistan's first 'indigenously designed' frigate.
So it will not be 3 Ada + 1 Jinnah.
It will be the full order of 4 Ada and the Jinnah class will be a seperate spinoff class derived from the Ada.

Other key takeaways:

• PN has always operated with a maximum of 8-10 surface ships which causes severe operational problems and stretches the assetts to their limits
• To rectify this, the fleet expansion plan envisions a 50-ship Navy with 20 'large' surface vessels
• 4x Type 054A/P
• 4X MILGEM ADA
• 1x (for now) Jinnah-class (presently in design phase)
• 2x Yarmook-class 2300 ton corvettes
• 6x Yarmook-class variants with larger tonnage in contractual stage
• 20x Indigenous gunboats by 2025
• FAC(M) 4 - PNS Haibat to be commisioned by end of 2020
• 'Submarine design and production capability being acquired to make PN from a submarine operating Navy to a submarine-builder's Navy'
• 1x Yuan-class sub being acquired from China on gratis basis to enable smooth transition to Hangor class
• Under PN Aviation Vision promulgated in Nov 2017, 2 ATR MPAs inducted, 1 ATR MPA will join fleet next year
• 10x LRMPA (jets) are planned as replacement of P-3C. 'Commercial jet has been selected and will be retrofitted with avionics suite on ATR model'
• Contract for first LRMPA has been signed
• Contract for long range, high endurance UCAV with SATCOM capability has been signed
• PN Marines envisioned as a division-size force by 2030
• SSG(N) envisioned as a brigade-size force by 2023
• Local development of ship-based long range anti-ship and land attack P-282 ballistic missile 'in the hypersonic domain'

4 Type 052Ds too

 

[Areesh]

4 Type 052Ds too

He never said that

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Could the heavier frigate/destroyer the outgoing Admiral was hinting at be an updated version of the Damen De Zeven Provinces Class AAW frigate (~6000 tons) or its derivative in the German navy the F-124 Class?

IMO, the likeliest option is the Italian FREMM. It has the systems the PN wants and its ITAR free, it would have weapons commonality between the Jinnah's and Ada's. Otherwise it will be a 052D based design, for which we should see an export variant mid 2020, maybe 2027. FREMM is more focused towards a multimission role whereas DZPC focuses on AAW and BMD, you can see this by its weapons loadout and radar loadout. SCN class also suffers from similar ailments, primarily ITAR. Their AAW focus is not a big deal, ITAR however is. FREMM, 052D or the dark horse TF2000 AAW FFG are the likeliest options i see tbh, equipped with ASTER-30(the new variant should have vastly improved range and BMD capabilities) or a HHQ-9 equipped 052D.

The mention of '6 ships of larger tonnage' came right after the Yarmouk-Class OPVs. So, it appears that the PN is talking to Damen for 6 larger OPVs. Obviously, I can't say for sure (I can easily be wrong here), but if we factor in our tighter finances, lack of credit options from the West, etc, more OPVs seems likely.

Now, there is one possible middle road, the Damen Crossover series. This is basically a hybrid design that uses both commercial and naval build standards (to keep costs low), but offers a lot of capabilities. Yes, it can do long-range AAW, but also some amphibious support operations, AShW/ASW, logistics, HDAR, etc.

Basically, instead of having very large OPVs, we can move to building a 'second fleet' around modular ships (e.g. the Crossover). Several navies are considering this approach, but Singapore is moving towards it -- i.e., maintain a 'traditional' naval force of frigates and submarines, but configure their patrol/policing through a large modular design networked with USVs and UAVs.

In terms of long-range AAW, I think we'll likely work to configure the Jinnah-class with a long-range SAM -- e.g., Aster 30 or Turkey's SIPER. Do remember, we had MBDA Italy's CEO visit the last CNS in 2019.

 

[Bilal.]

The mention of '6 ships of larger tonnage' came right after the Yarmouk-Class OPVs. So, it appears that the PN is talking to Damen for 6 larger OPVs. Obviously, I can't say for sure (I can easily be wrong here), but if we factor in our tighter finances, lack of credit options from the West, etc, more OPVs seems likely.

Now, there is one possible middle road, the Damen Crossover series. This is basically a hybrid design that uses both commercial and naval build standards (to keep costs low), but offers a lot of capabilities. Yes, it can do long-range AAW, but also some amphibious support operations, AShW/ASW, logistics, HDAR, etc.

View attachment 701261

Basically, instead of having very large OPVs, we can move to building a 'second fleet' around modular ships (e.g. the Crossover). Several navies are considering this approach, but Singapore is moving towards it -- i.e., maintain a 'traditional' naval force of frigates and submarines, but configure their patrol/policing through a large modular design networked with USVs and UAVs.

In terms of long-range AAW, I think we'll likely work to configure the Jinnah-class with a long-range SAM -- e.g., Aster 30 or Turkey's SIPER. Do remember, we had MBDA Italy's CEO visit the last CNS in 2019.

A bit of topic. But a sudden interest in acquiring large number of OPVs and also the mention of initial survey that potentially places Pakistan at number 4 in hydrocarbon reserves sounds interesting. Seems like our EEZ holds a lot of resources and PN is gearing up to be able to protect it.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

A bit of topic. But a sudden interest in acquiring large number of OPVs and also the mention of initial survey that potentially places Pakistan at number 4 in hydrocarbon reserves sounds interesting. Seems like our EEZ holds a lot of resources and PN is gearing up to be able to protect it.

Yep. However, I think the nearer-term goal is to make sure we independently secure our SLOCs so that the Chinese start relying on Gwadar for their trade. I don't think we (nor the Chinese) want a PLAN base on our shores, hence the investment in the PN.

That said, it would be interesting if the PN starts taking on more of China's security functions in Africa (our ships recently did a tour). Having PN ships could better mediate any issues between local maritime actors (fishers) and Chinese ones (fishing companies), for example. It could prop our case for FATF et. al (supporting stability in other places, etc).

 

[Patriotgames]

I would like to see PN in a position where it has full capability of denying "ANY" sea blockade during a war or any crisis situation.

 

[The Raven]

I've never quite understood the point of acquiring small numbers of western OPVs, the two Dutch and one US. Better to use those finances into more frigates or other assets. For policing EEZ, cheaper Chinese OPVs for the coast guard would be fine.

 

[Ark_Angel]

The mention of '6 ships of larger tonnage' came right after the Yarmouk-Class OPVs. So, it appears that the PN is talking to Damen for 6 larger OPVs. Obviously, I can't say for sure (I can easily be wrong here), but if we factor in our tighter finances, lack of credit options from the West, etc, more OPVs seems likely.

Now, there is one possible middle road, the Damen Crossover series. This is basically a hybrid design that uses both commercial and naval build standards (to keep costs low), but offers a lot of capabilities. Yes, it can do long-range AAW, but also some amphibious support operations, AShW/ASW, logistics, HDAR, etc.

View attachment 701261

Basically, instead of having very large OPVs, we can move to building a 'second fleet' around modular ships (e.g. the Crossover). Several navies are considering this approach, but Singapore is moving towards it -- i.e., maintain a 'traditional' naval force of frigates and submarines, but configure their patrol/policing through a large modular design networked with USVs and UAVs.

In terms of long-range AAW, I think we'll likely work to configure the Jinnah-class with a long-range SAM -- e.g., Aster 30 or Turkey's SIPER. Do remember, we had MBDA Italy's CEO visit the last CNS in 2019.

Aster 30 not on the table for J-Class vessels

 

[Tipu7]

Aster 30 not on the table for J-Class vessels

How come J-class factors in PN plans?
If PN envisions a fleet of 20 major warships, then it completes after integration of 6 HTVs.
Or should we assume that J-class are the 6 HTVs? (which is not the case). I tried to get more know how about J-class but only credible thing I learnt was 'It will be technologically most advance vessel of this region in its time period'.

Nothing more nothing less.

The mention of '6 ships of larger tonnage' came right after the Yarmouk-Class OPVs. So, it appears that the PN is talking to Damen for 6 larger OPVs. Obviously, I can't say for sure (I can easily be wrong here), but if we factor in our tighter finances, lack of credit options from the West, etc, more OPVs seems likely.

Now, there is one possible middle road, the Damen Crossover series. This is basically a hybrid design that uses both commercial and naval build standards (to keep costs low), but offers a lot of capabilities. Yes, it can do long-range AAW, but also some amphibious support operations, AShW/ASW, logistics, HDAR, etc.

View attachment 701261

Basically, instead of having very large OPVs, we can move to building a 'second fleet' around modular ships (e.g. the Crossover). Several navies are considering this approach, but Singapore is moving towards it -- i.e., maintain a 'traditional' naval force of frigates and submarines, but configure their patrol/policing through a large modular design networked with USVs and UAVs.

In terms of long-range AAW, I think we'll likely work to configure the Jinnah-class with a long-range SAM -- e.g., Aster 30 or Turkey's SIPER. Do remember, we had MBDA Italy's CEO visit the last CNS in 2019.

Initially I was also under the impression that PN is opting for some heavier vessel from Daman. However my this assumption was refuted by @Ark_Angel.
If you look at HTVs from 'destroyer perspective' (assuming funds have been sourced from a friendly nation), what pictures and options come into your mind?

 

[khansaheeb]

We need ship launched long range anti-ship drones ASAP. We need long range for surveillance of the seas preferably with anti-sub sensors and weapons.