English was barrier in IAF's date with Hawk

[Adux]

I have heard that Sir, I am not a pilot so that feeling is alien to me

 

[Muradk]

I have heard that Sir, I am not a pilot so that feeling is alien to me

one of my junior Air cdre Shabir ( Angle ) his son was a Flt lt had about 2000hr total and appox 500hr on Mirage, He took off from karachi for night interception with Navy Atlantic , after taking off within a min he was over the see and got disoriented his last words were
my heading is way off “I’m struggling a little,” I just cant figure up or down---------------- that was the last thing we heard. The kid died only son.
That is why we changed a couple of rules after take off pilot will not see out side at all for the first 5 min , will only look at instrument and follow what the inst say. It is easy to fly a small plane at 110 knots in the night but when you take off at 150 kn and are at 600 or even supersonic one mistake and you are dead in a sec or two.

 

[melb4aust]

yes I know but I am giving you the procedure what IAF will do , and what the RAF does. Flying at 220 knots in the night is very differnt from flying at 600knots. I had 100 hr on F-86 and when I went for night flying , after sitting in the plane I felt that I had never flown the plane, Its a whole different world without the sun.

My question:
1. Have you flown F-104 starfighter as well, which was inducted in PAF afterwards.

2. Is'nt it difficult to fly jet at night without the night vision thing.

edited after reading ur last post, Night vision can actually make things better to differentiate up and down, isn't it.

You said till 5 mins, what do you do afterwards

 

[Adux]

Sir,

If you increae your alitiude, wont the horizon move more slowly, what about port lights , city lights etc, what about negative G feelin when u r upside down, cant a pilot identify that . What about Level meter in the instrument panel

 

[melb4aust]

Sir,

If you increae your alitiude, wont the horizon move more slowly, what about port lights , city lights etc, what about negative G feelin when u r upside down, cant a pilot identify that . What about Level meter in the instrument panel

I think he was talking about the scenario just after take-off, when you have very little reaction time.

 

[Neo]

somethings like this :

Goog one...Lol

 

[Bull]

SPEED MY FRIEND MOST PEOPLE CANT TAKE IT <We started from harvards T-6 and from there we went to T-33 and than to
F-86s so we did;nt have any problems , but now it is imperative that pilots go on some thing like Mig 21 before that go into something really advanced. My son did not go to Risalpure he went to USAF Academy Colorado Springs and flew T-38s when he came back his traning was more advanced than F-7P so he did 500 hr on F-7 and was transfered to F-16s, But before we had F-7s our course was , T-37 to FT-5 to F-6 to Mirage or F-16.

IAF has done a good thing by getting hawks they are excellent and from Hawk your pilots will go to Mig21 for night flying and than in SUs.

Thanks for caring to explain.

 

[blain2]

Muradk Sir,

Hawk is a trainer jet, that being the case what is the need of a training excercise for IAF pilots to fly a trainer!!!

Its suppose to be a easy jet which a newbie can fly before he graduates to the supersonic jets , right?

Before you get on a *Jet*, you need slower flying aircraft. The only thing that the new AJTs offer is that they are capable of very low speed flying (and are forgiving) and can take the speed up quite a few notches so you get to streamline your training program. In many of the airforces, the AJTs also provided initial weapons training as well.

In the US and many airforces (including, PAF and RAF), there are many other platfroms on which candidate pilots have to qualify before they are placed on AJTs like T-38s (not really new, but periodically updated to the point that it can hang in there with many of the newer AJTs) in the USAF, Hawk in the RAF and K-8 in the PAF.

The following page would give you an idea of the various turbo-prop aircraft that are flown by the RAF before they move onto Hawk. They go somewhat from Tutor to Tucano to Hawk.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/trainigaircraft.cfm

Comparitively speaking, in the PAF, we go from Super Mushak (MFI-17) to T-37 to FT-5/6 for jet conversion and then to OCU sqns for various operational type of aircraft. With the induction of K-8, pilots will start going from MFI-17 to K-8 (which will actually provide lead in to combat aircraft like the F-7PGs, Mirages, F-16s etc.).

 

[blain2]

You should see which pilots were allowed to fly MKI in India...There was a report and to be honest... Pakistan has certain development for pilots. Starting at lower F7 and ending with higher Mirage or F16. The Indians do not have that so you have MKI pilots that have just finished Kiran... I doubt that they present big danger.

About English. They surely cannot beat the French. France is in the middle of Europe but one needs lot more to understand French pilots...

I tend to look at it a bit differently. Like PAF's F-16 sqns, only the best pilots go to IAF's MKI sqns. You may have seen in the 3 episode MKI special on Youtube where they show some young pilots on the MKI. This happens on an exceptional case with all AFs where pilots with a lot of potential are placed on the top of the line assets as it is felt that they should not be encumbered by having to learn various other types and are felt to be good enough to learn the best platform. We have some examples where PAF pilots after fighter conversion have been placed in F-16 sqns and have done very well on the type. Secondly, as the number of high-end aircraft starts to increase, then pilots with less experience will be sent to such sqns. In any case, until its a screwup, most of the pilots flying F-16s in the PAF and MKIs in the IAF would be very, very good. I believe most of our pilots in the F-16 sqns are CCS qualified and in the IAF MKI sqns, TACDE qualified. I am also sure of the fact that in the PAF Mirage and F-7 sqns, there are some very very good pilots who for one reason or the other have not been sent to the F-16 sqns.

In the IAF, this would be akin to those serving in the Mirage2K and Fulcrum sqns. So in South Asian AFs, the higher the potency of the type usually gets the best pilot stream.

In terms of structure, my own take is that IAF lacks a genuine lead in trainer that can lessen the gap between intermediate flying and advanced jet flying. In the PAF, we have been lucky that the old workhorse of FT-5/7s have been doing this for us. They are basic enough from avionics standpoint, but do a very good job of prepping pilots up for the next performance bracket. K-8s will eventually replace both the T-37s and FT-5s, however in the IAF, this gap will only be filled by Hawk.

 

[Muradk]

No it is not a must that you are CCS qualified and than you goto F-16s , you have seen a lot of videos in which kids who are flt lt are sitting in an F-16.
Combat commander school inducts pilots who are mostly Sqd Leaders. After completing that they go as flight leaders in different sqds.
There are 2 ways to go on a F-16 one you are very good in flying and has constantly shown perfection and leadership, second is if you are a Air force baby. Remember normaly the Air Force babies are better pilots and there counter-parts because they have a lot of budden of being a son of an senior officer and that brings the best in it.

 

[TexasJohn]

There are 2 ways to go on a F-16 one you are very good in flying and has constantly shown perfection and leadership, second is if you are a Air force baby. Remember normaly the Air Force babies are better pilots and there counter-parts because they have a lot of budden of being a son of an senior officer and that brings the best in it.

I completely agree with the first criteria because that's how a professional Air Force would operate, as for the second... you don't REALLY believe that do you? It sounds more like nepotism to me!

If the USAF went for the second criteria, we would be a wipe out in the air.

 

[Muradk]

TJohn:

I completely agree with the first criteria because that's how a professional Air Force would operate, as for the second... you don't REALLY believe that do you? It sounds more like nepotism to me!

If the USAF went for the second criteria, we would be a wipe out in the air.
you might be right for US pilots but I have seen one thing if you are a son of a senior officer , First he is in hell while staying at Risalpur every one kicks his butt saying " that you think you are the son of _-----------) and the poor kid gets it from every one. When he is in the flying stage he is in a lot of pressure because every one expects him to do better than the others. Another thing they are better in every aspect because they know if they screw up there fathers are the one who get embarrased. Yes you are right as well that some consideration is given to them , see PAF is a small force and every one knows each other. But then there are some who think that there father owns the AIR fORCE , i WILL NOT TAKE THE NAME a 4 star Generals son when he entered the academy he got a separate room no one could say anything to him, So when his time came for flying that ediot was sitting on the tail of a FT-5 smoking and finally he was kicked out of PAF by his father.
On the other hand we had son of Vice Chief of Army General Iqbal's Son Amir Iqbal he won PFT, BFT and got both BPT and Sword of Honour, Group Captian Shauqat his son Faisal Got both BPT and Sword of Honour there are countless Air force babies who have achived 100 times more than there course-mates.

 

[Keysersoze]

TJohn:

I completely agree with the first criteria because that's how a professional Air Force would operate, as for the second... you don't REALLY believe that do you? It sounds more like nepotism to me!

If the USAF went for the second criteria, we would be a wipe out in the air.
you might be right for US pilots but I have seen one thing if you are a son of a senior officer , First he is in hell while staying at Risalpur every one kicks his butt saying " that you think you are the son of _-----------) and the poor kid gets it from every one. When he is in the flying stage he is in a lot of pressure because every one expects him to do better than the others. Another thing they are better in every aspect because they know if they screw up there fathers are the one who get embarrased. Yes you are right as well that some consideration is given to them , see PAF is a small force and every one knows each other. But then there are some who think that there father owns the AIR fORCE , i WILL NOT TAKE THE NAME a 4 star Generals son when he entered the academy he got a separate room no one could say anything to him, So when his time came for flying that ediot was sitting on the tail of a FT-5 smoking and finally he was kicked out of PAF by his father.
On the other hand we had son of Vice Chief of Army General Iqbal's Son Amir Iqbal he won PFT, BFT and got both BPT and Sword of Honour, Group Captian Shauqat his son Faisal Got both BPT and Sword of Honour there are countless Air force babies who have achived 100 times more than there course-mates.

I am sorry but this one of the problems with Pak society........Nepotism causes more problems then positives......How many very good pilots have not gotten through because a place has been taken by the son of a senior officer?
Another example of this would be the cricket team. Several of the greats of the Pak team would never have gotten through, had it not been for the efforts of a few good captains who selected them on their talent rather than their family connections.

Talent not connections is the way forward.

 

[blain2]

No it is not a must that you are CCS qualified and than you goto F-16s , you have seen a lot of videos in which kids who are flt lt are sitting in an F-16.
Combat commander school inducts pilots who are mostly Sqd Leaders. After completing that they go as flight leaders in different sqds.
There are 2 ways to go on a F-16 one you are very good in flying and has constantly shown perfection and leadership, second is if you are a Air force baby. Remember normaly the Air Force babies are better pilots and there counter-parts because they have a lot of budden of being a son of an senior officer and that brings the best in it.

Murad Sahib,

I was not suggesting that you need to be CCS qualified to make it to the F-16 sqns. Was only pointing out that a considerable population in the F-16 sqns is CCS qualified thus we would put our best on the F-16s and I agree that younger pilots who make it to the F-16s are usually the ones who have a lot of promise.

We have CCS qualified pilots in Mirage and even F-7 sqns so what you say is definetly accurate.

 

[blain2]

I am sorry but this one of the problems with Pak society........Nepotism causes more problems then positives......How many very good pilots have not gotten through because a place has been taken by the son of a senior officer?
Another example of this would be the cricket team. Several of the greats of the Pak team would never have gotten through, had it not been for the efforts of a few good captains who selected them on their talent rather than their family connections.

Talent not connections is the way forward.

Keyser and Tex,

I think you guys went off on the wrong tangent with the nepotism suggestion here. Murad is simply pointing out that sons of former PAF pilots usually are better because they are expected by family pressure to perform. They are given slots on the F-16 sqns or other sqns not because they are so and so's offsprings, rather because they tend to perform better than their coursemates. There is a lot of inherent grounding and orientation that comes by way of being born in military families. I say this because I belong to one. You tend to understand the military culture better and thus settle down better whereas many who do not have such backgrounds have difficulties. This is not to say that those who have no background do not do well...they do, however relevant family backgrounds help esp. if the son/daughter is interested and motivated to serve (in other words does not join the armed services only due to family pressure).

This goes for all of the services with generations serving in them. The families expect the children to excel if the parents themselves have done well. I was one of the them but did not go the military route. My father would have expected to see me graduate/passout at the top of my course and serve with good units because he did the same. So its not the connections of my family that get me to good units, rather its the expectation of hard work and performance upon me which make me excel and get me to good units (in the case of PAF, elite sqns). One thing I would like to add is about a concept called "Claim" which exists in the PA. The idea is that if your father had served or was comissioned in a unit, then by way of giving respect to an officer of the unit/regt (I.e. your father), you would have a claim on the unit and if you happened to be in good standing and wanted to join your father's unit then you would be given preference.

There is no "quota" system in the PAF!!! Thus there are no slots "reserved" for the son's of PAF officers in individual sqns. No professional Airforce would ever do that and PAF is no exception. You only make it to the elite sqns if you can fly well. Father being a General or Air marshal or Admiral may help you get into the respective services academies (PMA Kakul, PAF Risalpur or PNA Rahbar), but beyond that its all merit (moreso for the PAF than the other services I would say). PAF does not/will not put lousy pilots in the cockpit simply because they happen to be someone's son.

You can ask any PAF personnel including MuradK and he will agree with me on this point.