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Dutch anti-Islam Lawmaker Cancels Contest.

I am sorry but your first link doesn't fully answer the point I raised and stressed upon, straight forward prohibition.

Please show me where I claimed about a "straight forward prohibition" ??
Trying Red Herring now ???
Read again what I had written ... And then read those Quranic verses ... They say exactly what I am saying


I had clearly mentioned in my opening post (you may not like calling him Ameer, but for me he is Ameer). That was supposed to let you know that you are entitled to your opinion and view and I am entitled to mine.

Anyways here is link to some research work that got banned in both Pakistan and india, and was equally disliked by Deo bandis and everyone. You can give it a reading if you want (I think I should have said if you can, beware you won't blame me for hurting your emotions after reading this). And its also necessary to mention that I still don't agree with the event as described in this research. I am of firm opinion that Hazrat Hussain was governor of Iraq when he was assassinated, they were people's people, they didn't prefer keeping personal guards and that's what led to targeted assassination of all of them from Omer to Hussain May ALLAH be pleased with all of them.

Bhai, Firstly, let me make it clear to you that I won't get offended even if you call Yazeed your prophet (let alone your Ameer)... You are free to believe in whatever you want and that's none of my concerns ..

Secondly, I asked you to provide primary source for your made-up story regarding Yazeed and Abu Ayyub ... And I asked you your opinions/comments on it .... But you have posted a link to a third rate sectarian book instead about Yazeed and Kerbala !!! ... You are better than that I believe

I remember we had this discussion in the past as well. I had at that time mentioned that Muslims in their time in Makkah weren't in position of any power, so they couldn't do much about the insults thrown at them and Messenger of ALLAH. Muslims in power after expansion couldn't think of disrespecting Messenger of ALLAH, they were still

And it had been pointed out to you that those verses which tell us to ignore blasphemers were from Madni Surahs !! In our times Remaining ignorant is a choice bro
 
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Please show me where I claimed about a "straight forward prohibition" ??
Trying Red Herring now ???
Read again what I had written ... And then read those Quranic verses ... They say exactly what I am saying




Bhai, Firstly, let me make it clear to you that I won't get offended even if you call Yazeed your prophet (let alone your Ameer)... You are free to believe in whatever you want and that's none of my concerns ..

Secondly, I asked you to provide primary source for your made-up story regarding Yazeed and Abu Ayyub ... And I asked you your opinions/comments on it .... But you have posted a link to a third rate sectarian book instead about Yazeed and Kerbala !!! ... You are better than that I believe

You are acting annoyed. Yazeed my prophet, third rate sectarian link ....... I mean come on, if you were right now thinking cool headed you won't have uttered these words. Its like if I would start saying the same stuff about Walayat and telling you that I don't mind if you consider Ali (May ALLAH be pleased with him) your prophet.

I sense a strong disagreement leading to an unhealthy discussion. The work that you are calling third rate sectarian has all the links to Tabari (the mother source of all the current popular Islamic history)....... but no one can force the pain of reading something that doesn't suit your beliefs.

And it had been pointed out to you that those verses which tell us to ignore blasphemers were from Madni Surahs !! In our times Remaining ignorant is a choice bro

Bro I am not into looking Verses and chapters as Makki and Madni. I still hold the view that none of the verses you posted relate to blasphemy and disrespect of Messenger. All the verses clearly intend to personality building and discipline in daily life of a Muslim.
 
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You are acting annoyed. Yazeed my prophet, third rate sectarian link ....... I mean come on, if you were right now thinking cool headed you won't have uttered these words. Its like if I would start saying the same stuff about Walayat and telling you that I don't mind if you consider Ali (May ALLAH be pleased with him) your prophet.
I sense a strong disagreement leading to an unhealthy discussion. The work that you are calling third rate sectarian has all the links to Tabari (the mother source of all the current popular Islamic history)....... but no one can force the pain of reading something that doesn't suit your beliefs.

Yes, that's what I asked for ... The Primary Source ... Rest of your post is childish and needs no reply
A few questions:
When was Tareekh e Tabari written ?
What were the criteria used by the writer ?
Have you read Tabari yourself ? even the Preface ?
How authentic Tabari is, according to you ?
Does Tabari narrate this story regarding Yazeed and Abu Ayyub the way you do?, and if it does, has chain of narrators been mentioned ?

Bro I am not into looking Verses and chapters as Makki and Madni. I still hold the view that none of the verses you posted relate to blasphemy and disrespect of Messenger. All the verses clearly intend to personality building and discipline in daily life of a Muslim

Bro you of course are free to believe in whatever you want
but as I said earlier, in our times, remaining ignorant is a choice
 
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Yes, that's what I asked for ... The Primary Source ... Rest of your post is childish and needs no reply
A few questions:
When was Tareekh e Tabari written ?
What were the criteria used by the writer ?
Have you read Tabari yourself ? even the Preface ?
How authentic Tabari is, according to you ?
Does Tabari narrate this story regarding Yazeed and Abu Ayyub the way you do?, and if it does, has chain of narrators been mentioned ?

You should read the whole book first, it's a critical review of Tabari's work. Either you fully read it first and then come up with to the point, identified inaccuracies in this work or you can (as you did) straight away start attacking its credibility.

I don't regard Tabari's work as authentic and the whole truth. He had dual identity, someone responsible for all the confusion, deviation and division we see today. And unfortunately every other historian and interpreter used Tabari's work as source, without adding any research based work on their part.

Edit: Links to tabari meaning references to his work. And then how contradictory his whole work has been.
 
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You should read the whole book first, it's a critical review of Tabari's work. Either you fully read it first and then come up with to the point, identified inaccuracies in this work or you can (as you did) straight away start attacking its credibility.

I don't regard Tabari's work as authentic and the whole truth. He had dual identity, someone responsible for all the confusion, deviation and division we see today. And unfortunately every other historian and interpreter used Tabari's work as source, without adding any research based work on their part.

Edit: Links to tabari meaning references to his work. And then how contradictory his whole work has been.

Well, just went through the link you provided.

It mentions the tenth century "Al-ʿIqd al-Farīd" as the primary source of the story you are telling us here (pp 426 - 428)

It was written by Ibn Rabbih, an Ummayad himself, and the official historian of the Ummayad princes of Spain !!

As you yourself talked about critical reading , I will leave it to you to analyze/judge the authenticity of such claims
 
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As you yourself talked about critical reading , I will leave it to you to analyze/judge the authenticity of such claims

I must appreciate you are very fast at reading, it took me some time to get familiar with the writing style of this book, but bravo to you, you just reached p 426 in very minimal time ....... have you read this before? And you picked Ibn Rabbih's name only, whereas Alama Ibne Kaseer and Ghaani also pointed out to the killing that resulted at that time. I hope you are not going to say that Ameer Yazeed wasn't present at all.

Khair lets disagree on this and come back to wilder. Do you think wilder doesn't create and influence people like
Anders Behring Breivik?
 
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I must appreciate you are very fast at reading, it took me some time to get familiar with the writing style of this book, but bravo to you, you just reached p 426 in very minimal time ....... have you read this before? And you picked Ibn Rabbih's name only, whereas Alama Ibne Kaseer and Ghaani also pointed out to the killing that resulted at that time. I hope you are not going to say that Ameer Yazeed wasn't present at all.

Khair lets disagree on this and come back to wilder. Do you think wilder doesn't create and influence people like
Anders Behring Breivik?

I actually read what Ibn e Kathir and Ghaan(l)i (not sure who he is, spelling mistake most probably) had written but none of them says what you are saying here. Only Ibn Rabbih has written similar story. That's why pointed it out to you.

As for Wilder, we have only made him more popular and influential, unfortunately .... Just like Charlie Hebdo
 
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I actually read what Ibn e Kathir and Ghaan(l)i (not sure who he is, spelling mistake most probably) had written but none of them says what you are saying here. Only Ibn Rabbih has written similar story. That's why pointed it out to you.

You and I are not the eye witness accounts (unfortunately), you believe popular version of how it may have happened and I believe in another totally different version of how it may have happened. I have my reasons to believe that version, because all that infighting, division soon after departure of Messenger Peace be upon him doesn't make any sense to me, I find it hard to believe and against the characteristics of companions mentioned in Quran. You must have yours.

As for Wilder, we have only made him more popular and influential, unfortunately .... Just like Charlie Hebdo

We didn't make him popular and influential, he has been feeding on hate and fear since early 2000's. It's not something recent we made him to hate Islam, Quran and Messenger.

Anders Behring Breivik did mention that he is influenced by anti Islam ideas of wilder ......... though wilder tried distancing himself from anders .... but their goals are similar.
 
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Good

Jews won't accept cartoons around the holocaust
Christians won't accept cartoons on Jesus in the name of freedom of speech

So why should Muslims face this double standard?

If someone insults your mother will u just sit there accepting his "right to free speech"? No you'd punch him in the face.

Sometimes violence is necessary
 
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I am not saying that the Dutch are afraid; they are probably coming to terms with the fact that this is a 'sensitive' issue with the potential to spark reactions and responses (pressures).

i can tell you we're not afraid indeed.

we're re-evaluating the lines of our freedom of speech, under pressure of death threats to one of our politicians and people close to him.

now how far do you think we'll shift our lines of our freedom of speech, beyond refraining from (apparently truth-based) insults of your Prophet?

i'll tell you right now, we won't. and instead of your Prophet being discussed in public, it'll be Muslims alive today who get discussed.

what if i were to send an idea for a cartoon contest around, one that depicts the sheer stupidity of the appeasers in "moderate" Pakistan?

(and, normally speaking, you can consider me a friend of moderate and even fundamentalist Pakistanis. not today. you seem to believe that death threats are the best way forward to prevent insults of your Prophet. next, you'll be trying to prevent other "insults", no matter how much truth-based, with the same death threat strategy. i'll tell you right now : that's going to backfire like a boomerang right into your mid-section.)
 
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what if i were to send an idea for a cartoon contest around, one that depicts the sheer stupidity of the a

You can and you should. I will join in too.

But never the Prophet. Its a matter of human rights.

What you do in private spheres is a different matter. But to use the parliament for such hideous intentions. Not a wise deal
 
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You can and you should. I will join in too.

But never the Prophet. Its a matter of human rights.

What you do in private spheres is a different matter. But to use the parliament for such hideous intentions. Not a wise deal

Well if you reserve death-threats (and i'm talking here to the ones who would use death-threats) for *just* insults against your Prophet and your Allah, then you can probably make that work on even a global level.

But i strongly advise you Muslims not to push this strategy any inch beyond that.

And yes, i'll admit it was in part people like me who did not stand up to Wilders anti-Mohammed ideas strongly enough in the past.
Perhaps Wilders was even the kind of guy not to change under anything but death-threats,
because he did not listen when i advocated in the past for him to address the misbehaviors of some of the modern-day Muslim(a)s instead of the behavior of your Prophet.

however, Wilders is intent on publicizing the dangers of Islam.
and you can't go silencing all criticism of some of the aspects of current-day Islam (which i fear can be just as embarassing to some Muslims especially if we'd put in disclaimers of how only some Muslims display the behavior we publicize in a critical light), with the same death-threat strategy.

you'll have to restrict yourselves to critiques of current-day western behavior, and you'll have to adjust the sting to the west to be about equal to the sting we currently try to employ against you.

if you don't, you'll escalate ethnic tensions and inter-country tensions.

and ultimately that is, for muslim fundamentalists/extremists at their current technology level (which is enforced to stay that way), a kind of suicide in which you pull many others into death with you.
i don't see any reason any God would reward someone for that; first stirring up tensions and then dying in the way i just described.
there's nothing Holy about such wars, despite what some Muslim cleric/terrorist-leader might want you to believe.
 
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Well if you reserve death-threats (and i'm talking here to the ones who would use death-threats) for *just* insults against your Prophet and your Allah, then you can probably make that work on even a global level.

But i strongly advise you Muslims not to push this strategy any inch beyond that.

And yes, i'll admit it was in part people like me who did not stand up to Wilders anti-Mohammed ideas strongly enough in the past.
Perhaps Wilders was even the kind of guy not to change under anything but death-threats,
because he did not listen when i advocated in the past for him to address the misbehaviors of some of the modern-day Muslim(a)s instead of the behavior of your Prophet.

however, Wilders is intent on publicizing the dangers of Islam.
and you can't go silencing all criticism of some of the aspects of current-day Islam (which i fear can be just as embarassing to some Muslims especially if we'd put in disclaimers of how only some Muslims display the behavior we publicize in a critical light), with the same death-threat strategy.

you'll have to restrict yourselves to critiques of current-day western behavior, and you'll have to adjust the sting to the west to be about equal to the sting we currently try to employ against you.

if you don't, you'll escalate ethnic tensions and inter-country tensions.

and ultimately that is, for muslim fundamentalists/extremists at their current technology level (which is enforced to stay that way), a kind of suicide in which you pull many others into death with you.
i don't see any reason any God would reward someone for that; first stirring up tensions and then dying in the way i just described.
there's nothing Holy about such wars, despite what some Muslim cleric/terrorist-leader might want you to believe.

Pakistani government took the Initiative keeping all that in mind having foresight, even your doomsday scenario of mad muslims with a sword wearing burkini marching down to Centraal Station in Amsterdam.

Always keep in mind that muslims first and always Look towards the governments and peaceful means but there is a threshold for everyone. That threshold is obvious and known to all. Stop poking it for the good of humanity.

The so called freedom of Expression in the west is being used both by people like Wilders and some Muslims to incite hatred and disharmony. E.g. tawhidi of australia

Proper legislative measures should be adopted to settle the matter.
 
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Pakistani government took the Initiative keeping all that in mind having foresight, even your doomsday scenario of mad muslims with a sword wearing burkini marching down to Centraal Station in Amsterdam.

Always keep in mind that muslims first and always Look towards the governments and peaceful means but there is a threshold for everyone. That threshold is obvious and known to all. Stop poking it for the good of humanity.

The so called freedom of Expression in the west is being used both by people like Wilders and some Muslims to incite hatred and disharmony. E.g. tawhidi of australia

Proper legislative measures should be adopted to settle the matter.

i fear that threshold to be a line which Muslims like you will want to shift further and further, towards outlawing all criticism of all things Muslim anywhere.

and that's just not going to work at all. if we have to fight you over freedom of speech, you'll find us very fierce in that fight.
 
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and that's just not going to work at all. if we have to fight you over freedom of speech, you'll find us very fierce in that fight.

First stop and ban the Freedom of Hatred Speech madrassa run by wilders, it's not like his words and actions didn't have influence on people like Anders Breivik. wilders is creating terrorists and extremists. People like Anders would turn their guns on their own.
 
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