DULMIAL, PAKISTAN – The Village with the Gun

[xyxmt]

We need to stop being proud of such shit. This wasn't out war and we merely got dragged into it.

It is part of our history, it happened and it must be remembered.

 

[maximuswarrior]

It is part of our history, it happened and it must be remembered.

Yeah remembered and repulsed. We are not going to act like Indians and take pride in being a white man's cannon fodder.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

We need to stop being proud of such shit. This wasn't out war and we merely got dragged into it.

What ever the politics maybe, we are celebrating the deeds of individuals. No politics today or then can take the pride and courage of service away from an individual. We should celebrate the bravery, courage and sacrifice of the individual soldier....that is what we are doing here.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened.

Kuch ziyda hou giya hai

 

[TMA]

Not only fighting for the country who was occupying thier country, but was also fighting the Khalifa of the Muslims.

Anything for a penny though. They might be heroes to those they left behind but I have no respect for them.

Whilst I can understand why they fought for the British Empire, I cannot celebrate it. Just listening to that video clip by Dr Israr about how it was mainly recruits from Punjab and NWF that joined the British and fought to conquer Jerusalem and fought to reconquer Delhi in 1857, makes my heart sorrowful.

Of course one ought to be respectful of them (those who were killed) and one ought to study the causes for their joining, but I would never celebrate their decision. Why did not Sindhis join? Was Sindh a richer province than Punjab?

Some posters really need to look into history here!!
Just where do you think the Pakistani army came from, thin air! The men who put together the Pakistani army at the birth of the nation ALL served in the British Indian Army. Pakistan was one of the very countries that at its birth, it had a large standing army ready to serve and protect it.
The men who served learned invaluable skills on the battlefield, including command and control structures, army logistics, infantry/armoured manoeuvres, operation and maintenance of field equipment and weapons and I can go on for ages.
They also had also tested their skills in live combat against two of the most formidable enemies the world has known i.e. the Japanese Imperial Army and the German Wehrmacht. It's with these skills they came to secure the freedom of Pakistan, the Empire knew this at the time and so did the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and they left. Jinnah (May Allah's mercy be upon him) played our hand and supported the war;

The Muslim League Leaders fully exploited the war situation. Under encouragement during the war crisis Mr. Jinnah by making profound promises of Muslim aid in the war effort,

Addressing to the 31st session of the Muslim League at Karachi in December 1943 Jinnah proclaimed: “We have time and again made it clear- we have offered our hand of co-operation for the job or work that Lord Wavell (new Viceroy) wants to do,

http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol. 22 Issue7/Version-16/A22070160104.pdf

So people have an issue with Jinnah(ra)?


When partition happened Pakistan received its army, an army that was able to;
-Help evacuate and resettle partition refugees.
-Secure Pakistan's borders.
-Put down rebellions.
-Provide security on the streets in the absence of a police force.
-Secure Kashmir.

It's that last point regrading securing Kashmir that I will bring in my personal experience. My grandfather (1st Punjab) and my entire elder generation fought in the British Indian Army. It was these men who came back and then destroyed the Dogra army occupying Azad Kashmir and then charged towards Srinager, and contrary to the myth that is still put out here, no the tribal folk did not free Azad Kashmir, it was cleared out by the AKRF, as it was known back then. The tribals joined the fight when what is now Indian occupied Kashmir was attacked.

Let's just say that the people calling for Pakistan just sat back and decided not to be 'slaves' or any other stupid term you want to use, been right good little babus and listened to what Congress said and boycotted the war and kept our men at home. Do you honestly think there would have been a Pakistan? The Indian army would have steam rolled what is now Pakistan Punjab, Sind , Azad Kashmir and might have come stuck in Balochistan and of course Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which they would then occupy. They would have burned every village, town, city. Massacred anyone that called for Pakistan and indulged in mass rape of all our women.

Oh this might not have happened? I beg you tell me, just how would they have been stopped? They would have had a professional, battle hardened army, where at most Pakistan's people would face them with militias.

Look what happened to Hyderabad, they wanted Pakistan and they were invaded, heck they even had an armed force, which being weak was pushed aside. So what followed? Massacres of civilians, including children. Burning of mosques, the mass rape of women, some Indian army troops took several Muslim women each night to 'entertain' them. Read it up.

Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened. I can't think of any occasion where the old saying that 'each cloud has a silver lining' is more appropriate than in this situation.
Allah bless the veterans of the Second World War, our elders and the protectors of Pakistan.

@DESERT FIGHTER
@Irfan Baloch

Yes you are correct, but there would be no need for Pakistan if there was no British India. (Also no Republic of India {Bharat) either)

https://www.facebook.com/

Some Pakistanis will not like what Dr Israr says about these men. But he speaks the truth.

 

[New World]

Some Pakistanis will not like what Dr Israr says about these men. But he speaks the truth.

and this is what Allah and his Messanger(SAWW) said, Say the truth even if it is against you.

 

[Signalian]

The Pakistan village that sent all of its men to fight in WWI - and was nearly airbrushed out of history

Officers from the village of Dulmial in Pakistan, who fought alongside the British in the First World War CREDIT: ANDREW FOX/ANDREW FOX

Joe Shute
25 OCTOBER 2018 • 6:40AM


Dr Irfan Malik was just five years-old when he left his native Nottingham to visit his ancestral village of Dulmial in Pakistan. Aside from the heat and the dust and privations of this small agricultural village in the Salt Range Region of the Punjab 100 miles south of Islamabad, one particular detail registered in his young mind: a 12lb British cannon, mounted on a marble plinth ‘in recognition of services rendered by all ranks from this village’ during the First World War.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/...sent-men-fight-wwi-nearly-airbrushed-history/


Cant get the rest of the story...Anybody?

My village

Some posters really need to look into history here!!
Just where do you think the Pakistani army came from, thin air! The men who put together the Pakistani army at the birth of the nation ALL served in the British Indian Army. Pakistan was one of the very countries that at its birth, it had a large standing army ready to serve and protect it.
The men who served learned invaluable skills on the battlefield, including command and control structures, army logistics, infantry/armoured manoeuvres, operation and maintenance of field equipment and weapons and I can go on for ages.
They also had also tested their skills in live combat against two of the most formidable enemies the world has known i.e. the Japanese Imperial Army and the German Wehrmacht. It's with these skills they came to secure the freedom of Pakistan, the Empire knew this at the time and so did the founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and they left. Jinnah (May Allah's mercy be upon him) played our hand and supported the war;

The Muslim League Leaders fully exploited the war situation. Under encouragement during the war crisis Mr. Jinnah by making profound promises of Muslim aid in the war effort,

Addressing to the 31st session of the Muslim League at Karachi in December 1943 Jinnah proclaimed: “We have time and again made it clear- we have offered our hand of co-operation for the job or work that Lord Wavell (new Viceroy) wants to do,

http://www.iosrjournals.org/iosr-jhss/papers/Vol. 22 Issue7/Version-16/A22070160104.pdf

So people have an issue with Jinnah(ra)?


When partition happened Pakistan received its army, an army that was able to;
-Help evacuate and resettle partition refugees.
-Secure Pakistan's borders.
-Put down rebellions.
-Provide security on the streets in the absence of a police force.
-Secure Kashmir.

It's that last point regrading securing Kashmir that I will bring in my personal experience. My grandfather (1st Punjab) and my entire elder generation fought in the British Indian Army. It was these men who came back and then destroyed the Dogra army occupying Azad Kashmir and then charged towards Srinager, and contrary to the myth that is still put out here, no the tribal folk did not free Azad Kashmir, it was cleared out by the AKRF, as it was known back then. The tribals joined the fight when what is now Indian occupied Kashmir was attacked.

Let's just say that the people calling for Pakistan just sat back and decided not to be 'slaves' or any other stupid term you want to use, been right good little babus and listened to what Congress said and boycotted the war and kept our men at home. Do you honestly think there would have been a Pakistan? The Indian army would have steam rolled what is now Pakistan Punjab, Sind , Azad Kashmir and might have come stuck in Balochistan and of course Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which they would then occupy. They would have burned every village, town, city. Massacred anyone that called for Pakistan and indulged in mass rape of all our women.

Oh this might not have happened? I beg you tell me, just how would they have been stopped? They would have had a professional, battle hardened army, where at most Pakistan's people would face them with militias.

Look what happened to Hyderabad, they wanted Pakistan and they were invaded, heck they even had an armed force, which being weak was pushed aside. So what followed? Massacres of civilians, including children. Burning of mosques, the mass rape of women, some Indian army troops took several Muslim women each night to 'entertain' them. Read it up.

Anyway the bottom line is that had our men not served Pakistan would have never happened. I can't think of any occasion where the old saying that 'each cloud has a silver lining' is more appropriate than in this situation.
Allah bless the veterans of the Second World War, our elders and the protectors of Pakistan.

@DESERT FIGHTER
@Irfan Baloch

My village, Dulmial, provided Military officers and soldiers in all wars that Pakistan fought against enemies.

What ever the politics maybe, we are celebrating the deeds of individuals. No politics today or then can take the pride and courage of service away from an individual. We should celebrate the bravery, courage and sacrifice of the individual soldier....that is what we are doing here.

I am disappointed that my elders asked for a Gun instead of a University.

 

[Pak_88]

@jamal18, @313ghazi

It is very easy for those in faraway lands to take the higher moral position and criticise those who fought in the British Indian Army - and bloody hell, I can understand their sentiments! However, I must urge them to remember that hindsight is always 20/20.

India would have been RAZED to the ground had the Japs come.
As regards the British colonising India, I can say only this: the Mughals were in decline. The once great empire was being eaten away. The aam aadmi, as it were, languished in the streets, while the baadshaah drowned in his own excess, lest we romanticise the life of the average Indian in the 18th century. The Mahrattas and the Sikhs were ruling over the Muslims soon thereafter, if not already.

The fact remains, as @waz pointed out, we would have been overrun by the Indian army.
The Quaid was a proponent for helping the war effort - bloody hell, he was instrumental in any degree of Indianisation of the army.
It's very easy to romanticise the idea of preparing for "jihad" whilst sitting comfortably in your flat in leafy old England, but how prepared are you right now for jihad? Battle experience and training in a professional army can never be substituted by running a couple of miles and shooting a hunting rifle, and calling it "training for jihad".

I have the utmost regard for my Turkish fellows, and I don't wish to hurt their sentiments, however, I must ask: on what grounds could the Ottoman caliph claim legitimacy over being the leader of all Muslims? Simply due to holding the title of "caliph"? Look at the extravagance of the Dolmabahce palace, for God's sake! He emptied the public purse for constructing that flamboyant den of excess. Ataturk may be criticised for many things, but taking down the ineffective "caliphate" isn't one of them, at least in my humble opinion, though, of course, that remains a topic for a different thread altogether.

O' ye men, who've never heard a shot fired in anger, kindly refrain from being so damned self righteous.

 

[waz]

Yes you are correct, but there would be no need for Pakistan if there was no British India. (Also no Republic of India {Bharat) either)

But British India happened....
As for Dr Israr, yes he's right regarding those particular episodes in history, but doesn't doesn't look at the strategic picture which emerged far later on.

It is very easy for those in faraway lands to take the higher moral position and criticise those who fought in the British Indian Army - and bloody hell, I can understand their sentiments! However, I must urge them to remember that hindsight is always 20/20.

India would have been RAZED to the ground had the Japs come.
As regards the British colonising India, I can say only this: the Mughals were in decline. The once great empire was being eaten away. The aam aadmi, as it were, languished in the streets, while the baadshaah drowned in his own excess, lest we romanticise the life of the average Indian in the 18th century. The Mahrattas and the Sikhs were ruling over the Muslims soon thereafter, if not already.

The fact remains, as @waz pointed out, we would have been overrun by the Indian army.
The Quaid was a proponent for helping the war effort - bloody hell, he was instrumental in any degree of Indianisation of the army.
It's very easy to romanticise the idea of preparing for "jihad" whilst sitting comfortably in your flat in leafy old England, but how prepared are you right now for jihad? Battle experience and training in a professional army can never be substituted by running a couple of miles and shooting a hunting rifle, and calling it "training for jihad".

I have the utmost regard for my Turkish fellows, and I don't wish to hurt their sentiments, however, I must ask: on what grounds could the Ottoman caliph claim legitimacy over being the leader of all Muslims? Simply due to holding the title of "caliph"? Look at the extravagance of the Dolmabahce palace, for God's sake! He emptied the public purse for constructing that flamboyant den of excess. Ataturk may be criticised for many things, but taking down the ineffective "caliphate" isn't one of them, at least in my humble opinion, though, of course, that remains a topic for a different thread altogether.

O' ye men, who've never heard a shot fired in anger, kindly refrain from being so damned self righteous.

Well said bro.

 

[maximuswarrior]

What ever the politics maybe, we are celebrating the deeds of individuals. No politics today or then can take the pride and courage of service away from an individual. We should celebrate the bravery, courage and sacrifice of the individual soldier....that is what we are doing here.

Surely. We will celebrate the fact that our people fought like lions. I won't celebrate the fact that they were fighting another man's war.

 

[TMA]

But British India happened....
As for Dr Israr, yes he's right regarding those particular episodes in history, but doesn't doesn't look at the strategic picture which emerged far later on.



Well said bro.

You are right...but what I am trying to get across is that we should NOT BE proud of this part of our history. It was out of desperation that these men fought. Sure, learn from this history but celebrate it not.

It is like a man who due to desperation has to feed his children haram food....surely his children or grandchildren would not be “proud” of this part of their family history.

So many Pakistanis especially in the UK become "proud" that coterminous Pakistanis fought for the British Empire. Do they not know that they were desperate people who were physically colonised by a tyrant?

Also Dr Israr raised a very important question: How come Sindhis did not feature so much in the British Indian Army? Was it really a case that the Sindhis were not a “martial” race or that they were on average wealthier than their Punjabi brothers???

 

[Pak_88]

Also Dr Israr raised a very important question: How come Sindhis did not feature so much in the British Indian Army? Was it really a case that the Sindhis were not a “martial” race or that they were on average wealthier than their Punjabi brothers???

The same reason Bengalis never joined. The same reason Memons didn't join. The same reason only 5 recruiting districts existed in the whole of the subcontinent.

 

[TMA]

The same reason Bengalis never joined. The same reason Memons didn't join. The same reason only 5 recruiting districts existed in the whole of the subcontinent.

So Bengalis did join, pre 1857 in the East India Company Army, and indeed they made up the bulk of that army. This policy was abandoned as a lot of them were involved in the “mutiny”.

But notwithstanding that, what is the reason?

 

[waz]

You are right...but what I am trying to get across is that we should NOT BE proud of this part of our history. It was out of desperation that these men fought. Sure, learn from this history but celebrate it not.

It is like a man who due to desperation has to feed his children haram food....surely his children or grandchildren would not be “proud” of this part of their family history.

So many Pakistanis especially in the UK become "proud" that coterminous Pakistanis fought for the British Empire. Do they not know that they were desperate people who were physically colonised by a tyrant?

Also Dr Israr raised a very important question: How come Sindhis did not feature so much in the British Indian Army? Was it really a case that the Sindhis were not a “martial” race or that they were on average wealthier than their Punjabi brothers???

Fair enough it can be debated about where the line is for honour/respect and when we reach into celebration. As for those who celebrate their valour for being part of the empire, there are many reasons people could be doing this and it still just comes down to opinion, there is no wrong or right here. One side has that they fought for a colonial occupier, the other that they fought against two terrible evils (Nazis and Imperial Japan) and with their skills went onto secure Pakistan.
As for Dr Israr his speech lacked complete tactical oversight and someone should have asked him who would have aided Pakistan militarily when the time came, the Islamic army of Sindh? No one that's the answer.

 

[Pak_88]

So Bengalis did join, pre 1857 in the East India Company Army, and indeed they made up the bulk of that army. This policy was abandoned as a lot of them were involved in the “mutiny”.

But notwithstanding that, what is the reason?

True, and the Bengal Army was larger than the other two Presidency Armies by a substantial amount, if I'm not mistaken. There was no single body known as the "Indian Army" prior to 1895.

The recruitment of Bengalis was limited due to them being labelled as a 'non-martial race' in the aftermath of 1857. This was primarily due to:
1. Want of soldierly loyalty (read unquestionable obedience) - they were viewed with a great deal of suspicion, but they weren't alone. The same happened with Hindus from central India.
2. Them growing softer as time went on (in terms of physical soldierly ability) - I shan't digress too much, but most of the fighting was happening on the frontier, and there were fewer chances of these soldiers seeing much action, especially through the later part of the 19th century. Again, they weren't alone; large parts of the Madras Army were disbanded, and few units remain, due to long periods of inactivity in the relatively tranquil south of India.

Had it not been for WWII, the martial races theory would have continued (and we wouldn't have the SSG today, mind you!).

The War opened doors for countless people as the British government tried desperately to boost recruitment for the war effort.

As a result of limited recruitment, prestige in the profession of arms amongst the Bengali populace fell (which, of course, had serious repercussions following independence). If we are to move to the era post independence, the Pakistan Army wasn't biased against the Bengalis in terms of recruitment and selection - it was simply the fact that soldiering didn't hold the same prestige for the people of Chittagong as it did for Chakwal. In fact, in terms of officer selection, Bengali candidates had higher rates of acceptance in the ISSB. Yet, they still croaked. This is something we see today as well - the Army is trying to boost recruitment of Baluchis and Sindis, by passing incentives such as relaxed standards (physical and educational) and extra marks due to belonging to an underdeveloped area in rural Baluchistan (or, indeed, Sind), so that propaganda peddlers with less than holy motives can be quietened to some degree. To this day, Sindis and Baluchis barely join up.

The Islamic army of Sindh? No one that's the answer.

Ha! The same (non-existent) Army which forms an integral core of the Pakistan Army today.


If any imbecile wishes to label the Army as a Punjabi or Pathan Army, then there's a damned good reason for it. The reason in question being that, to this day, it is the Pathans and the Punjabis who join up in droves. It is not due to some inherent bias or prejudice on part of the Army.

And before anyone says anything, I have this on good authority with my two of my best friends (one from Dadu and the other from Mehar, both of whom happen to be sons of officers), and you'd be surprised at the stories they tell you about the perception of soldiering and joining the Army in interior Sind.