Duck & cover: Protective gear for ASF ' Substandard & useless'

[third eye]

Same story everywhere !
I thought Pak forces would be better equipped .

It didn’t matter if the 11 Airport Security Force (ASF) officials killed last Sunday in an attack on Jinnah International Airport were wearing bulletproof vests, their colleagues say. “The bulletproof jackets we are provided with are useless,” says one rank officer who wished to remain anonymous. “Even a needle could pass through these jackets.”

Autopsies and medical examinations performed at Jinnah Postgraduate Medical Centre where the deceased and injured were brought confirmed the officer’s claim: a majority of the ASF victims received bullets to their upper torso. “We did not see any bulletproof jackets when the ASF victims were brought to the hospital,” one of the medico-legal officers Dr Raja Memon told The Express Tribune. “They were just wearing their ASF uniforms.”

As their colleagues receive treatment for injuries sustained in the attack, members of the ASF have voiced their frustration with the level of security provided to them. “We are assigned here to protect the airport but unfortunately, there are no arrangements for our own security or safety,” said an ASF officer. At any given time, five ASF companies, with 68 personnel each, are deputed for the Karachi airport’s operational security. “There is a limited quota for bulletproof jackets and only a few personnel are provided with the jackets,” explains a commando. “A majority of us are compelled to perform our duties while putting our lives at risk.”

“We do not have the means necessary to provide bulletproof jackets to all personnel,” the ASF spokesperson admitted. “We provide jackets to those deployed at sensitive points. Those who lost their lives in the attack were not deployed at sensitive points.” He denied that the vests were ‘substandard’, however, saying the ASF maintains the high quality of protective gear such as bulletproof jackets.

The ASF officials complain that while no measures for their security were taken before or after the attack, financial issues or staff shortages have also remained unresolved. “You can see that most of our men hitch a ride home after work because they don’t have the means to own their own transport,” said a constable. “Most of the time, we have to pull back-to-back shifts because of which we are unable to perform our duties with alertness.”

Published in The Express Tribune, June 14th, 2014.

 

[thesolar65]

What about us? Does any body know about our ASF's (i.e CRPF, CISF) equipment?

 

[JonAsad]

the talibans in amrika are going around in bullet proof vests- such a shame-

 

[Informant]

Vests are fine, can take multiple close grouping shots of .308. Problem is lack of funds, plus a bulletproof jacket isnt meant to save you. It's to keep exit wounds small.

Khair sad state of affairs.

 

[SrNair]

What about us? Does any body know about our ASF's (i.e CRPF, CISF) equipment?

As far as I know CISF is perfectly equipped.But CRPF is not that better excpt their commandos.

 

[Thirdfront]

Vests are fine, can take multiple close grouping shots of .308. Problem is lack of funds, plus a bulletproof jacket isnt meant to save you. It's to keep exit wounds small.

Khair sad state of affairs.

Admit it, you just made this up.... Firstly, BPJs are meant to save (otherwise why exit wounds need to be kept small??). Secondly, they are designed not only stop bullet penetration but also to dampen the impact. If any bullet penetrates it, it will kill the personnel wearing it due to concussion effect, whether it penetrates body or not....

 

[Informant]

Admit it, you just made this up.... Firstly, BPJs are meant to save (otherwise why exit wounds need to be kept small??). Secondly, they are designed not only stop bullet penetration but also to dampen the impact. If any bullet penetrates it, it will kill the personnel wearing it due to concussion effect, whether it penetrates body or not....

I have met a few guys who took hits from 7.62 and survived torso wounds. Ask knowledgeable members the main aim is to keep the exit wound small so that the injured is operable by the combat medic so he could patch the wounded up. Bulletproof jackets arent meant to stop all calibres.

You can ask a few military guys in the US and i am pretty sure that would be their point aswell.

 

[kṣamā]

If I am not wrong, Kevlar is impenetrable by many small caliber weapons, for larger caliber and high speed projectiles protection is provided by a metal or ceramic plate inserted between multiple cross weaved kevlar sheets. Nothing gets through. Even small shrapnel can and will cause concussion or instant death.

 

[Icarus]

The ASF are equipped with material according to their roles, which is to deal with basic disturbances at airports stemming from domestic threats such as smugglers, thieves or lone wolf attackers. An attack such as this had not been anticipated as a situation that the ASF would ever have to face, luckily they were able to keep the terrorists at bay for long enough with their pistols and MP-5s to allow for the Rangers and Army to control the situation. Although I still feel that the ASF is adequately armed for their assigned role and responsibilities, there does exist a need to raise a dedicated, well armed and better trained force within the ASF to systematically respond to terrorist threats.

 

[Thirdfront]

I have met a few guys who took hits from 7.62 and survived torso wounds. Ask knowledgeable members the main aim is to keep the exit wound small so that the injured is operable by the combat medic so he could patch the wounded up. Bulletproof jackets arent meant to stop all calibres.

You can ask a few military guys in the US and i am pretty sure that would be their point aswell.

I agree. But it is more of a design limitation and not intention. Again, if the jacket takes a hit and the bullet penetrates, the person is more likely to die from the blunt force trauma and exit wound won't come into picture. You can refer to countless online reference. I was once told by IA person that if bullet does penetrate BPJ, exit would is more likely to be sever as bullet will shatter on impact with back plate (or front plate if bullet enters from behind) but I have not come across any solid source for that..

 

[third eye]

The ASF are equipped with material according to their roles, which is to deal with basic disturbances at airports stemming from domestic threats such as smugglers, thieves or lone wolf attackers. An attack such as this had not been anticipated as a situation that the ASF would ever have to face, luckily they were able to keep the terrorists at bay for long enough with their pistols and MP-5s to allow for the Rangers and Army to control the situation. Although I still feel that the ASF is adequately armed for their assigned role and responsibilities, there does exist a need to raise a dedicated, well armed and better trained force within the ASF to systematically respond to terrorist threats.

Given the environment that prevails in our part of the world and considering that it may only get worse in the days ahead, all such organisations who have a static VA/ VP to defend I think should be given max ' staying / holding power '.

BP Jackets , NVDs & good inter - communication shall help.

 

[Icarus]

Given the environment that prevails in our part of the world and considering that it may only get worse in the days ahead, all such organisations who have a static VA/ VP to defend I think should be given max ' staying / holding power '.

BP Jackets , NVDs & good inter - communication shall help.

Introducing new gear will require the entire force to be retrained in its use, which makes it a counter-productive solution. Which is why I suggest that raising a QRF within the ASF might be a suitable compromise whereby the ASF's response capability can be exponentially enhanced whilst keeping the cost of procurement and training within limits.

 

[Zarvan]

The ASF are equipped with material according to their roles, which is to deal with basic disturbances at airports stemming from domestic threats such as smugglers, thieves or lone wolf attackers. An attack such as this had not been anticipated as a situation that the ASF would ever have to face, luckily they were able to keep the terrorists at bay for long enough with their pistols and MP-5s to allow for the Rangers and Army to control the situation. Although I still feel that the ASF is adequately armed for their assigned role and responsibilities, there does exist a need to raise a dedicated, well armed and better trained force within the ASF to systematically respond to terrorist threats.

Sorry Sir I don't agree some basic changes needed to be done we need to deploy several Snipers on every Air Port with really long range snipers than we need to equip ASF guys with better Assault Rifles and Bullet proofs also Pistols than give them lot of better trained Dogs set no man para meter up to 50 meters around the Air Port other than entrance off course and every time few ASF guys should walk around those areas with Dogs
@Slav Defence @Aeronaut

 

[Jango]

there does exist a need to raise a dedicated, well armed and better trained force within the ASF to systematically respond to terrorist threats.

That is what Ch NIsar has been harping about lately.

A dedicated anti-terror force whose sole purpose is to deal with situations such as these, so you don't have to call in the SSG, Army, Rangers or Police etc. A single commander will be in charge of the situation and there won't be a discussion b/w 3 commanders of the Police, Army and Rangers regarding the situation.

It all looks good on paper, let's see if it is implemented.

. Which is why I suggest that raising a QRF within the ASF ...

You would know better than me but I read an interview of an ASF soldier on DAWN (he was involved in the Karachi attack). He said that he was on QRF, and got to the scene of breach within 2 minutes.

 

[Informant]

I agree. But it is more of a design limitation and not intention. Again, if the jacket takes a hit and the bullet penetrates, the person is more likely to die from the blunt force trauma and exit wound won't come into picture. You can refer to countless online reference. I was once told by IA person that if bullet does penetrate BPJ, exit would is more likely to be sever as bullet will shatter on impact with back plate (or front plate if bullet enters from behind) but I have not come across any solid source for that..

The part of a fragmented round being dangerous is true, but a bullet that passes through an armor plate will not have the velocity required to pierce through skin. If it does the placement comes into play which depends on luck. A bullet that pierces through an armor plate will have extremely reduced velocity plus twist rate. This results in smaller exit wound.

The bulletproof jacket is meant to work ideally to stop desired rounds but temperatures and conditions change armor properties and the rounds it is supposed to hold off can go. If they do the aim is to keep exit wound small.

I can corroborate this because i also read on forums pertaining to Iraq/Afghan vets.