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Dual Standards in Pakistan

Highly debatable. And you simply skipped all the action IPKF had in SL.

Ahh thanks for reminding me of IPKF actions and dual standard your own government of India adopted towards own soldiers when they were picthed against LTTE in SL after India started feelin the heat :).

even when your soldiers were in Sri Lanka Indian govt RAW was looking after the LTTE terrorists who were injured and intrestingly they were treated in the same hospital in Tamil Nadu south India where Indian injured soldiers were treated.

what an irony.




Point taken that you have different policies towards different nations, but there is always a rationale behind those policies. if the comparasion was between India and China, It would be swayed obviously in favour of China because of general public opinion being favourable. US as pointed out in the article itself, is loathed as much if not more than India by Pakistani. This brings to the only conclusion, which is also made in the article - the language that Islamabad understands best is the language of strength.

The only rational reason is that by adopting soft policy towards US or China we get our intrests protected.

As far as the language of strength is conerned just be realistic if tomorrow US attack India you wont be able to do anything. Besides try using the language of strength against Pakistan :) my dear in your case even this harsh language wont butch us an inch.

You tried it after Kargil but failed, you tried it after Mumbai but failed.

In the world affairs we need calm not emotional actions simple as that.

If we hand over suspect to India it doesnt serve us any purpose. It also nothing to do with popular opinion but simply a geo-politcs.


He is not crying for equal treatment of India and US, he is crying over to unequal treatment of Terrorists commiting crimes against americans and terrorists commiting crimes against Indians.


Then justify your bending over backwards to feed US intrests despite public opinion n the contrary. Any other justification besides its super-power status.

Where does it mention in the article about state sponsored terrorists. Providing protection to these terrorists does infact shows indifference of GoP.


Hafiz Saeed has been released by independent supreme court of Pakistan not the GoP Pakistan.

The court decision is neither based on popular opinion nor on favouritism for US or any other country or group.

The Court find no evidence against him for his alleged involvment in Mumbai attacks and the court hence released him.

The GoP has vowed to file another appeal.

Its all fair procedure.
In case of people handed over to US, it was done by Musharraf without taking the case to legal Court.

Sorry man if you think we should violate the decision of an independent Court then it is not possible.

if you follow your courts then you do not have any right to object us for following the court decisions.
 
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Ahh thanks for reminding me of IPKF actions and dual standard your own government of India adopted towards own soldiers when they were picthed against LTTE in SL after India started feelin the heat .

even when your soldiers were in Sri Lanka Indian govt RAW was looking after the LTTE terrorists who were injured and intrestingly they were treated in the same hospital in Tamil Nadu south India where Indian injured soldiers were treated.

what an irony.
I thought we were having a discussion and not a - who levis more alligations.
All the incidents quoted are more of an alligation which you percieve as fact, just as deep as indian role in Baluchistan.

The only rational reason is that by adopting soft policy towards US or China we get our intrests protected.

As far as the language of strength is conerned just be realistic if tomorrow US attack India you wont be able to do anything. Besides try using the language of strength against Pakistan my dear in your case even this harsh language wont butch us an inch.

You tried it after Kargil but failed, you tried it after Mumbai but failed.

In the world affairs we need calm not emotional actions simple as that.

If we hand over suspect to India it doesnt serve us any purpose. It also nothing to do with popular opinion but simply a geo-politcs.
Now you are comparing China with US. One has full support of Pakistan populace and second has almost none.
The hypothetical condition of Indo-Us war is a display of childish emotions, something which I was accused off.
Geo-politics - right, so backing your strategic depth is it..

Hafiz Saeed has been released by independent supreme court of Pakistan not the GoP Pakistan.
Hafiz Saeed was not even accused of involvement in Mumbai attack, so rest of the argument becomes irrelevent.
The Court find no evidence against him for his alleged involvment in Mumbai attacks and the court hence released him.

The GoP has vowed to file another appeal.
Get your facts straight. He was neither tried nor released for his Alleged involvement in Mumbai attack.
 
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Did I say that its ignorable?


You implied the same.

Lets prove them terrorists first. By the way will you hand over terrorists wanted to Pakistan without treaty.
If LeT is still to be proven as a terrorist organization and the evilness of the people who set it up, then no argument can ever convince you.

I am a Pakistani and i know it better. but for the sack of argument search the recent surveys.
Took me 30 seconds, and yes its from Pakistani media:Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan


Of course. I am not a naive.
one thing more its never double standard when it comes to inter state relations its rather multilateral or multifaceted based on interests, threats etc.


No-one is expecting you to be naive, just stick to the facts.[/QUOTE]
 
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It is not simply comparinf India with US, it is just to underline how hollow some of the arguments are.

The arguments are not hollow - even the writer admits that. What he calls unreasonable is that the those same arguments have not been raised by the GoP in terms of its dealings with the US after 911.

Why Pakistan was not in a position to raises legitimate arguments against cooperation with the US based on flimsy evidence is entirely related to the issue of international diplomatic and military clout.

Its a perfect example of the landlord in a village being able to get away with things peasants could not dream of.

Pakistan's stance is not the issue, the issue is that large powers are able to arm twist smaller nations into doing their bidding, whether there is justification for their demands or not.
 
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I thought we were having a discussion and not a - who levis more alligations.
All the incidents quoted are more of an alligation which you percieve as fact, just as deep as indian role in Baluchistan.
What allegations? You deny that India created LTTE? You deny that India had been supporting LTTE? and you deny that Indian RAW and South Indian govt was not treated the injured caders of LTTE in the same hospital where injured IPKF soldiers were being treated?


Now you are comparing China with US. One has full support of Pakistan populace and second has almost none.

I am not comparing them. Both have relations with Pakistan.


The hypothetical condition of Indo-Us war is a display of childish emotions, something which I was accused off.
Geo-politics - right, so backing your strategic depth is it..
Just in case if it ever happend India wont be able to do anything.

In our case we have our geo-strategic location which is our biggest strength as well as our biggest weakness due which we have to vary the policies put pressures and get pressured.

On the hand India doesnt have any such advantage or disadvantage except countering India which US is currently not eager to speed up so early as it is dependent on China due to recent meltdown.

Hafiz Saeed was not even accused of involvement in Mumbai attack, so rest of the argument becomes irrelevent.
Get your facts straight. He was neither tried nor released for his Alleged involvement in Mumbai attack.


why dont you have some homework before posting

Zeenews Bureau

Islamabad: In a fresh blow to India’s efforts to bring perpetrators of 26/11 to justice, Pakistan’s Supreme Court on Monday adjourned the hearing into the cases against Jamaat-ud-Dawah (JuD) chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed’s indefinitely.

The Pakistan SC, while taking up petitions challenging the release of Hafiz Saeed from house arrest, adjourned the hearing indefinitely after the Advocate General representing Punjab government in the case resigned.

The case’s adjournment also comes in the wake of admission by top Pakistani government officials, including Interior Minister Rehman Malik, that his government had no concrete evidence to prosecute the JuD chief
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Hafiz Saeed’s lawyer AK Dogar told reporters that his client was now a ‘free man’.


India claims Hafiz Saeed masterminded the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks last year and that his so-called religious organisation Jamaat-ud-Dawah is a front of the terror group Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT).

The United Nations Security Council had banned JuD post Mumbai attacks and Pakistani authorities had placed its chief Hafiz Saeed under house arrest subsequently in December.

However, the Lahore High Court had in June this year ordered the release of the JuD chief from detention citing lack of evidence against him for his involvement in the 26/11 carnage.

Pak SC adjourns case against Hafiz Saeed indefinitely


And by the way SC also released him on the same grounds
 
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What charges were pressed against him will will extremely clear if you bothered to follow the proceedings of the court, which I was through primarily Pakistani media only. He was initially detained on precautionary ground and no charges were presented within the stipulated period of 15 days. Thereafter, it was stated that he has been detained as per instructions of United Nations, which was sighted by the court and the court decided that 1) Pakistan is not bound by UN instructions 2) UN asked to freeze the assets and restrict his movement but not to arrest him. 3) detention was technically illegal on the account that no charges were pressed against Saeed in first 15 days.

GoP then came up with argument that Saeed has had association with AQ and this provides ground to extend his detention. GoP claimed "sufficient material" for the same which were shared with court in an in camera hearing as the evidence were classified. Court decided that a) AQ is not recognized by GoP as a terrorist organization officially and b) Evidence is not sufficient hence the acquittal.

This is as accurate summary of events as possible.
 
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What charges were pressed against him will will extremely clear if you bothered to follow the proceedings of the court, which I was through primarily Pakistani media only. He was initially detained on precautionary ground and no charges were presented within the stipulated period of 15 days. Thereafter, it was stated that he has been detained as per instructions of United Nations, which was sighted by the court and the court decided that 1) Pakistan is not bound by UN instructions 2) UN asked to freeze the assets and restrict his movement but not to arrest him. 3) detention was technically illegal on the account that no charges were pressed against Saeed in first 15 days.

GoP then came up with argument that Saeed has had association with AQ and this provides ground to extend his detention. GoP claimed "sufficient material" for the same which were shared with court in an in camera hearing as the evidence were classified. Court decided that a) AQ is not recognized by GoP as a terrorist organization officially and b) Evidence is not sufficient hence the acquittal.

This is as accurate summary of events as possible.

That was earlier but later when Indian government demanded of Pakistan, then the Govt pressed charages against him in connection with Mumbai attacks but due to lack of evidence the court released him.

Now if there is any evidence it should be presented sand the court will only take action when there is any.

so your argument to have double standard with regard to his release is weak.

We can not go against the court simple as that.

if you can go against Indian court's verdict then tell me.
 
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U guys are missing the point or ignoring it for what reason i don't know.

But fact is that when Musharraf decided to go with U.S. Not one Pakistani favored it. As a dictator he did it for his own reasons.

It is quite apparent from today's sentiments of public and of politicians, they are objecting to the policies of Musharraf and looks that if he will be called to task by our CJ.

So what Indians are saying is not a fact, as a country we must not toe the line of others but our own, for our own interests.

So the present Pakistani policies seems to be what they would have been, had Pakistan at the time had Democratically elected Govt.
 
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You implied the same.
think its you who implied that. Plus with India its a whole different thing.

If LeT is still to be proven as a terrorist organization and the evilness of the people who set it up, then no argument can ever convince you.

Agreed. But have to prove it were them behind 26/11. And i would be happy more than anyone if the perpetrators of that tragedy are brought to justice. Don’t try to behave like America to impose things on will not on evidence. The truth is there is lack of evidence on your part. GoP, I am sure will cooperate. And there is not much pressure on govt from the public. Because our public knows what terrorism means as we are suffering from it everyday. This thing has change the perception about terrorism in masses. We condemn it anywhere, be it India.

Took me 30 seconds, and yes its from Pakistani media:Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
I think you are not qualified to say “majority of Pakistnis support OBL” as you are not in Pakistan and your sources are secondary. I can give you surveys which are not conducted by Pakistani media. And i stil believe the surveys have many flaws. But I guess you just want to beat me in argument and nothing else. The only support OBD has is from Taliban and radicals. And they are very few in 170 million. Be careful of sweeping statements when you dont have authentic research.


Of course. I am not a naive.
one thing more its never double standard when it comes to inter state relations its rather multilateral or multifaceted based on interests, threats etc.


Goes about you too.
 
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the last para was about No-one is expecting you to be naive, just stick to the facts
 
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How is it that when it comes to people who attack America or the West, there is no question of proof, of the need for evidence or the will of the law courts?

And yet, when it comes to handing over terror suspects to the hated Americans, the Pakistani government cheerfully ignores public opinion. This excuse is reserved for India.


Why is it that Pakistan has one set of standards for the West and another for India? As we have seen, it can’t be because Pakistanis love America.


----------------------reasons 1)they get money in the form of arms and aid which is further used to buy arms .

--------------------------------2)they cannot say NO to the US ......who has been its main arms supplier so far......if they do then there is a fear among the pakistan military that ---a) the americans would stop supporting pakistan. b) americans might include pakistan as a country supporting taliban and al queda (which they actually did till 9/11)and they might include pakistan in their war( the term ****** has already come to use)......and c)their military equipment are american so america can stop spare parts and supplies ......

-----------------------------3)by saying no to the US they would face global isolation....yes THE U.S has the power to do that....
 
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Ok, let's first India hand over the culprits who organized insurgency in East Pakistan.Who are responsible for the death of Pakistani soldiers. Who provided arm and training and provide refuge who raised arms against state.
 
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As I said before, the issue is not that Pakistan is (rightfully so) asking for conclusive evidence and acting within the constraints of its legal system and the will of its people when it comes to dealing with India, but that some countries like the US can use economic and military coercion to bypass the system with unreasonable and unjustified demands.

Afghanistan should not have been invaded in 2001, and the US should have accpeted the offer of a proper trial for OBL in a third mutually acceptable country, and negotiated with the Taliban to get to that point.

Vir Sanghvi should have focused on that 'double standard and hypocrisy', where the US uses coercion to get its way. Instead he made a morally bankrupt argument that since Pakistan was forced into accepting US demands backed by little evidence and that lacked popular Pakistani support (even government support), it should also similarly accept illegitimate and unreasonable Indian demands.
 
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Will India, Pakistan stop playing pot and kettle?

By Jawed Naqvi
Monday, 10 Aug, 2009 | 03:06 AM PST

At the height of the Cold War, a Russian was showing off his country’s achievements to an American visitor. There was a train from Moscow to Vladivostok every three hours, he boasted. And, regardless of the vast stretch of 9,288 kilometres the journey involved, there was never a minute’s delay.
When the train didn’t show up for the entire day, the Russian detected a victorious smile on the American’s face. ‘Look here, Yankee,’ he growled. ‘You too have a black problem in your country.’

India and Pakistan are often enough like the pot calling the kettle black. Take the latest story of a bigoted Pakistani cleric called Hafiz Saeed who preaches hatred of Hindus and Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Christians – everyone except Wahhabis and Salafis. India says he masterminded the Mumbai terror attack. There is a good chance that the claim is right. Some of Saeed’s colleagues are being tried for their alleged role in the crime. As the leader of the pack he should logically be seen as culpable in the incident, which has injected litres of bad blood in the India-Pakistan equation.

However, Hafiz Saeed may well have done, if he did what India says he did, on behalf of someone else – perhaps someone who found it objectionable that the national security advisers of India and Pakistan had an excellent meeting in Delhi in October. Remember also that Mumbai was attacked in November, precisely on the day, in fact within hours of, a good meeting between the Pakistan foreign minister and his Indian counterpart in Delhi.

Was the Mumbai attack planned to torpedo improving India-Pakistan ties? It could be one of the reasons, if not the entire explanation. And everyone in India and Pakistan who believes that the two countries should continue to mistrust each other are complying, if not colluding, with the terrorists’ strategic objectives carried out in Mumbai, Kabul, Bangalore, Lahore, Delhi and Karachi among a growing number of places in their cross-hairs.

The Lok Sabha TV, an official channel that I find somewhat balanced in contrast to its several private counterparts, asked me if Pakistan lacked the will to prosecute Hafiz Saeed. Former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan, G. Parthasarthy, who I see as a hawk on Pakistan (a lethal combination with his army background) was the other discussant. I asked the anchor to try to use the word alleged, as the old-fashioned (and more reliable) journalists would. Parthasarthy disagreed.

He said Hafiz Saeed would not qualify for the cautionary word we were taught to treat as sacred in journalism. For him Saeed was as much a culprit as Ajmal Kasab was in Mumbai’s November nightmare. Why don’t we just abandon the trial and hang everyone we ‘know’ to be guilty?

With this attitude Indians are basically double guessing Pakistan’s Supreme Court, which did not find grounds to keep Hafiz Saeed in captivity any longer. Indians would not normally like others to question their apex court. And if you did something like that in India you could be sent to prison as Arundhati Roy was, for questioning the Supreme Court’s hitherto unquestioned wisdom. So Indians should first canvass to change the colonial-style judiciary and the blind faith in their courts. And then perhaps they would be justified in questioning the integrity of Pakistani judges and to pontificate about their superior judiciary to the rest of the world.

Let’s grant to Parthasarthy the possibility that Pakistan’s highest court had acted, like any other court would, on the material evidence placed before it. Perhaps the ISI, or whoever it was that handled the prosecution of Saeed, did not deliberately want to arrest him for whatever compulsions and, therefore, presented a weak case. That’s theoretically possible. In fact this kind of thing happens all the time, not in Pakistan alone. How do we proceed along the commonplace and patently Indian narrative that the Pakistan establishment, which rejoices in the death of a rabid hate-monger like Baitullah Mehsud, is in fact doing everything to set his ideological clone Hafiz Saeed free? I said to the TV anchor that it was possible that Pakistan has unknown compulsions, like the ones India has revealed on several occasions in domestic affairs.

It would be preposterous, for example, to suggest that India had some kind of willingness to free a group of terrorists in a swap deal for the passengers of a hijacked Indian Airlines plane in December 1999. But it certainly must have had its compulsions. Whether we agree with that or not is beside the point. In fact I can even see a hint of continuity of that line of thinking even though India has a different government today than the one that freed the Pakistani terrorists.

The faith in the Vajpayee-era policy, in fact its endorsement, is evident in the fact that the foreign ministry official who accompanied the terrorists to Kandahar with his foreign minister to set them free there, happens to be the head of the group that was authorised by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to lead the talks on terrorism with Pakistan after the Havana meeting with President Pervez Musharraf.

One of the fellows thus freed in Kandahar went on to fund the group that slammed hijacked planes into the World Trade Centre in New York. He then proceeded to brutally slit the throat of a fine journalist, partly because he happened to be a Jew. The other fellow released by India is believed to have staged the December 2001 attack on India’s parliament. What were the compulsions for India to free these people?

Some lives were saved, others put to risk. Could there be a similar compulsion for Pakistan to handle Hafiz Saeed with cotton wool?



A senior editor from Pakistan, who has some credibility in Delhi, told an Indian TV channel that perhaps Pakistan does not want to have a domestic backlash when it was engaged in a war against the Taliban. Do we accept that argument? Is it possible that the Indian government is aware of the pitfalls that Pakistan faces if it presses too hard against everyone that New Delhi wants to be put behind the bars? Without a degree of trust, at least between the prime ministers of the two countries and not necessarily their foreign ministries, I doubt if they could have clinched the agreement to share ‘real time intelligence’ against future terror threats. I think that was the biggest achievement of Sharm el-Sheikh. Parthasarthy believes the agreement is unworkable.



As far as compulsions go India has had quite a few of its own. There has not been a single conviction in the genocide of the Sikhs in 1984. Does anyone know why? Not one person has been sent to jail for breaking the law (and also the heart) of India in Ayodhya in 1992. The Justice Shrikrishna Commission Report on the pogrom against a minority community by a well-armed group of fanatics in Mumbai, assisted by the police, has been all but thrown into the dustbin. It had named names and given police wireless records of the culprits and their culpability. Nothing happened. When a group of Indians protested against the killing of nine Christians in Pakistan by Muslim extremists I thought there should have been many more angry demonstrations against what happened across the border. There should be demonstrations in both countries against atrocities committed by religious fanatics. The massacre of Christian tribes people and Dalits in Orissa is a case in point where there should have been a collective condemnation of the horrific killings. That’s the way we used to be. If we have a common destiny, then we have a stake in each other’s pain and grief.


However, the focus has already shifted to the looming elections in Maharashtra, a prestigious contest for the ruling Congress and the rightwing opposition. All the attacks on the Indian prime minister’s agreement with his Pakistani counterpart in Sharm el-Sheikh, from within his party and the opposition, are not unrelated to the politics of elections. After all Mumbai is the capital of Maharashtra and the Shiv Sena and the Bharatiya Janata Party are looking to exploit the shaken sentiments of the sprawling multi-cultural city.

And so the story of the train to Vladivostok and America’s black problem is not likely to lose its currency anytime soon. The South Asian narrative is a tragic variant of the pot calling the kettle black.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | Will India, Pakistan stop playing pot and kettle?
 
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That was earlier but later when Indian government demanded of Pakistan, then the Govt pressed charages against him in connection with Mumbai attacks but due to lack of evidence the court released him.

Now if there is any evidence it should be presented sand the court will only take action when there is any.

so your argument to have double standard with regard to his release is weak.

We can not go against the court simple as that.

if you can go against Indian court's verdict then tell me.
Jana, first of all I am not aware of your background and association with defence.pk, but simply that If you are really as seious as you claim about discussing / debating relations you must have followed the details of Saeed trial. It was not about Mumbai but finally in a govt. statement it was claimed that Hafiz's arrest had nothing to do with mumbai attack. If you still want me to post link i would oblige you but that would discredit the seriousness of this discussion. I am not here to gain brownie points but to express myself and so I would continue.


AM's Reply
Afghanistan should not have been invaded in 2001, and the US should have accpeted the offer of a proper trial for OBL in a third mutually acceptable country, and negotiated with the Taliban to get to that point.
Yeah exactly, if that was the case I would have understood the stance of GoP. This is the sole reason which makes the entire pakistani approach loose depth nd seriousness. If we had seen the same rigidity regarding US claim to OBL, none would have pointed finger in saeed's case.

Vir Sanghvi should have focused on that 'double standard and hypocrisy', where the US uses coercion to get its way. Instead he made a morally bankrupt argument that since Pakistan was forced into accepting US demands backed by little evidence and that lacked popular Pakistani support (even government support), it should also similarly accept illegitimate and unreasonable Indian demands.
Also for a minute step back and look at his stance. He is stating that Pakistan Buckled under US pressure, just that his language is different. So you also accepting that Pakistan buckled becasuse of USA's status as a superpower. Simply put his entire articlesays the same thing, that Pakistan buckled to US's requests and demans because US is a supirior milletary power and India is a smaller one.

Jana's Reply:
With this attitude Indians are basically double guessing Pakistan’s Supreme Court, which did not find grounds to keep Hafiz Saeed in captivity any longer. Indians would not normally like others to question their apex court. And if you did something like that in India you could be sent to prison as Arundhati Roy was, for questioning the Supreme Court’s hitherto unquestioned wisdom. So Indians should first canvass to change the colonial-style judiciary and the blind faith in their courts. And then perhaps they would be justified in questioning the integrity of Pakistani judges and to pontificate about their superior judiciary to the rest of the world.
I do not know much about the background of journalist being quoted, but simply that Hafiz Saeed was not tried for Mumbai Attack. If you revisit the archives you would find that he was released because of habeas corpus petition filed by his lawyer. whatever Zeenews might say he was arrested under MPO law and released later.

It made several arrests in connection with the attacks, but no criminal charges were brought against Mr Saeed.

Instead, he was detained under the Maintenance of Public Order (MPO) law which lawyers say empowers the government to arrest individuals who are likely to disrupt public order.

The law allows such detentions only for a limited period, and courts often set aside prolonged detentions under the MPO.
BBC NEWS | South Asia | Profile: Hafiz Mohammad Saeed
If you can get hold of the formal chargesheet against Hafiz Saeed, You would realize the same. Hafiz Saeed was tried for his associations with Al-Qaida, and AQ surprising as it may seem, is not a terrorist organization under Pakistani law. Though Pakistan has booked several associates of AQ to US for their association, it still remains legal to be an AQ operative in Pakistan.

PS: Agnostic I am truely glad to see you back, I thought we lost you along with Neo and DS. Hugs for you.
 
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