DRONES WON'T STOP: U.S. Slap to Pakistan

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Shooting down drones is not hard at all; PA has more than enough capability to do it.

I think these drone strikes are supported by the Military and Government since they are killing the same people we are killing; but it is very unpopular among the populace so the Military/Government says baseless statements as a mean of 'assuring' the populace that they are with them.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

Last time I checked, Pakistan is not a banana republic. Pakistan have taken a stand for the protection of its assets and pursuit of its national interests throughout its history like a sovereign nation is expected to. Pakistan does not compromises on the matters of its national security. However, there are 'grey areas' to consider where a degree of flexibility can be exercised.

Taliban/Terrorists/Rogue elements are not our assets. When tracking them down, time is of the essence at times and US have the resources to get the job done in such situations.

Problem arises when US crosses a red line without taking Pakistan into confidence while doing so. US didn't inform Pakistani authorities that it was planning to assassinate Mullah Mansoor. Pakistani authorities were coercing him to come to the negotiation table. Mansoor' assassination have made it more difficult for Pakistan to bring Taliban on the negotiation table. It might happen but element of mistrust is there.

Pursuing the national interest has landed you in this current position , not exactly a honeymoon isnt it?
I guess there is spat between your another National Assest Saeed and All weather friend on Islamphobia..... Bound to happen sooner or later.
Happy days ahead.

 

[LeGenD]

The drones come from a base within Pakistan, the US has said so, the Pakistani army has said so, everyone says so except for the Pakistani government.

US stationed some drones in the Shamsi airbase but Salala incident changed the dynamics of this cooperation and US had to pull its drones out of Pakistan as a consequence. They are now stationed in Afghanistan. The drone that struck Mullah Mansoor came from Afghanistan.

1. No drone entered Pakistani airspace. Confirmed by Ch. Nisar, the interior minister of Pakistan.
2. The distance between where this incident took place and Afghan border is 40 km.
3. The maximum range of hellfire missile is 8km.
4. General (r) Ghulam Mustafa confirmed this as well that some turncoats Taliban were used in this ambush.

1. Ch. Nisar is not in the position to jump to conclusions about a clandestine operation. Neither should he.
2. 40 km distance is nothing. The drone had to intrude into Pakistani airspace a bit, fire the missiles and get out.
3. See above
4. No proof of it.

India did share a border with East Pakistan. Millions of refugees poured in India too, millions are still here. US did came to blow us to kingdom come and that was the 7th fleet not some pesky drones.

I don't know what kind of selective history lessons you have been reading but cold war is long since over. We ended up on the losing side and went broke in 1991. Time to move on.

The 1971 conflict was largely a manifestation of Pakistani internal political crises. US wasn't keen in getting involved in an internal affair. The 7th fleet came because Indian forces invaded East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and Indian leadership was plotting to do the same in the West.

7th fleet would have sprung into action if India had invaded West Pakistan in full force.

Shooting down drones is not hard at all; PA has more than enough capability to do it.

I think these drone strikes are supported by the Military and Government since they are killing the same people we are killing; but it is very unpopular among the populace so the Military/Government says baseless statements as a mean of 'assuring' the populace that they are with them.

Pakistan haven't given permission to the US to conduct strikes in Balochistan, Punjab, Sindh and Azad Kashmir and even some parts of KPK. Before a strike is to take place, a formal permission is to be obtained for it from Pakistani leadership (and/or military establishment) so that Pakistani security forces can make necessary arrangements in the way.

It is a misconception that every drone strike is conducted with approval of Pakistani leadership (and/or military establishment). Tensions arise when US violates the 'terms and conditions' of its agreement.

Pursuing the national interest has landed you in this current position , not exactly a honeymoon isnt it?
I guess there is spat between your another National Assest Saeed and All weather friend on Islamphobia..... Bound to happen sooner or later.
Happy days ahead.

US is conducting drone strikes in several countries that are affected by militancy and terrorism. Pakistan is not an exception.

Be glad that you do no share a massive border with Afghanistan. You don't understand the dynamics of this region well.

 

[Hamza913]

US stationed some drones in the Shamsi airbase but Salala incident changed the dynamics of this cooperation and US had to pull its drones out of Pakistan as a consequence. They are now stationed in Afghanistan. The drone that struck Mullah Mansoor came from Afghanistan.


1. Ch. Nisar is not in the position to jump to conclusions about a clandestine operation. Neither should he.
2. 40 km distance is nothing. The drone had to intrude into Pakistani airspace a bit, fire the missiles and get out.
3. See above
4. No proof of it.


The 1971 conflict was largely a manifestation of Pakistani internal political crises. US wasn't keen in getting involved in an internal affair. The 7th fleet came because Indian forces invaded East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and Indian leadership was plotting to do the same in the West.

7th fleet would have sprung into action if India had invaded West Pakistan in full force.


Pakistan haven't given permission to the US to conduct strikes in Balochistan, Punjab, Sindh and Azad Kashmir and even some parts of KPK. Before a strike is to take place, a formal permission is to be obtained for it from Pakistani leadership (and/or military establishment) so that Pakistani security forces can make necessary arrangements in the way.

It is a misconception that every drone strike is conducted with approval of Pakistani leadership (and/or military establishment). Tensions arise when US violates the 'terms and conditions' of its agreement.


US is conducting drone strikes in several countries that are affected by militancy and terrorism. Pakistan is not an exception.

Be glad that you do no share a massive border with Afghanistan. You don't understand the dynamics of this region well.

They are probably still there. Wouldn't be too hard for the PAF to shoot them down, and since the army isn't bitching about it, they come from within Pakistan.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

US is conducting drone strikes in several countries that are affected by militancy and terrorism. Pakistan is not an exception.

Be glad that you do no share a massive border with Afghanistan. You don't understand the dynamics of this region well.

US conducts drone strikes in many areas which it sees as its national threat. You are comparing Pakistan with such states? Be clear ......
We have our own border problems and we are effectively managing them inspite of some so called state and non state actors. Its all the will power to take action .... I dont understand the relation how Drone strike is linked with Afghan. Stop blaming others for ur problems.

 

[LeGenD]

They are probably still there. Wouldn't be too hard for the PAF to shoot them down, and since the army isn't bitching about it, they come from within Pakistan.

Americans abandoned Shamsi airbase in 2011. If they came back, somebody would have leaked it by now.

I get the impression that Pakistani military establishment wants to bring an end to War on Terror in the Af-pak region. This war is proving to be costly in terms of men and materials. However, element of mistrust between the US and Pakistan seems to be the bigger problem now.

Contrary to the popular belief, Pakistani military establishment doesn't have any control over the CIA-led counter-terrorism initiatives. CIA doesn't cares about negotiations between Pakistan and rogue elements for achieving lasting peace and militants to lay down their arms in the process. If CIA marks somebody for assassination, he is done for. Mullah Mansoor episode is just an example of this ground reality. Do you recall words of COAS?

“[The] COAS said such acts of sovereignty violations are detrimental to relations between both countries and are counter-productive for ongoing peace process for regional stability.” (ISPR)

 

[Taimoor Khan]

1. Ch. Nisar is not in the position to jump to conclusions about a clandestine operation. Neither should he.
2. 40 km distance is nothing. The drone had to intrude into Pakistani airspace a bit, fire the missiles and get out.
3. See above
4. No proof of it.

1. Neither you or I are in the position to rubbish Ch Nisar. He has categorically said that no drone entered Pakistani airspace. Interior minister is the 2nd most powerful person in GOP after the PM. Unless he takes his statement back, to the day, this should be taken as a fact.
2- See above.
3- N/A
4- Ignorance is not an excuse.

 

[Hamza913]

Americans abandoned Shamsi airbase in 2011. If they came back, somebody would have leaked it by now.

I get the impression that Pakistani military establishment wants to bring an end to War on Terror in the Af-pak region. This war is proving to be costly in terms of men and materials. However, element of mistrust between the US and Pakistan seems to be the bigger problem now.

Contrary to the popular belief, Pakistani military establishment doesn't have any control over the CIA-led counter-terrorism initiatives. CIA doesn't cares about negotiations between Pakistan and rogue elements for achieving lasting peace and militants to lay down their arms in the process. If CIA marks somebody for assassination, he is done for. Mullah Mansoor episode is just an example of this ground reality. Do you recall words of COAS?

“[The] COAS said such acts of sovereignty violations are detrimental to relations between both countries and are counter-productive for ongoing peace process for regional stability.” (ISPR)

According to a high western official linked with the negotiations, a pact was signed by ISI chief Lieutenant General Shuja Ahmad Pasha, and the director of the Central Intelligence Agency general David Petraeus during a meeting in Qatar January 2012. Lieutenant General Pasha also agreed to enlarge the CIA presence in Shahbaz air base, near the city of Abbottabad, where Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden was killed in May 2011.

The US still has a base in Pakistan, if they didn't then the PAF would shoot the drones down, but they don't. The ISI obviously lets them.

 

[litman]

our leaders will condemn and then go silent till the time next drone strike occurs. we have seen the same shit*y response every time drone strike occurs.

 

[LeGenD]

1. Neither you or I are in the position to rubbish Ch Nisar. He has categorically said that no drone entered Pakistani airspace. Interior minister is the 2nd most powerful person in GOP after the PM. Unless he takes his statement back, to the day, this should be taken as a fact.

Do you really think that Chaudhry Nisar is privy to CIA-led operations? Don't be naive.

2- See above.
3- N/A
4- Ignorance is not an excuse.

Right.

Some information that you might want to digest: http://nation.com.pk/international/25-May-2016/how-us-tracked-and-killed-taliban-leader-wsj

According to a high western official linked with the negotiations, a pact was signed by ISI chief Lieutenant General Shuja Ahmad Pasha, and the director of the Central Intelligence Agency general David Petraeus during a meeting in Qatar January 2012. Lieutenant General Pasha also agreed to enlarge the CIA presence in Shahbaz air base, near the city of Abbottabad, where Al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden was killed in May 2011.

The US still has a base in Pakistan, if they didn't then the PAF would shoot the drones down, but they don't. The ISI obviously lets them.

I have read such reports in full detail and I have informed you in brief the situation on the ground. I am not sure why this is still an argument.

Pakistani military establishment haven't given green light to CIA to conduct operations in any part of Pakistan irrespective of situation on the ground. Whatever the agreement there may be, appropriate dos and don'ts have been conveyed to the US. It is true that CIA and ISI had cooperated in the matters of drone attacks during the period 2009 - 2010. However, something went wrong during 2011 and CIA began to double-cross ISI in these matters. There might still be some level of cooperation behind the curtains but Pakistani military establishment have no control over CIA-led counter-terrorism operations. ISI have nothing to do with assassination of Mullah Mansoor for example.

When individuals like Chaudhry Nisar, PM and COAS seem to be on the same page and condemn an attack, something went wrong.

More importantly, don't let the Indians get the best of your emotions. They can bark about sovereignty all day but they don't have the spine to confront US either. But god forbid, should US destroy something dear to us, Pakistani military establishment will hold its ground. We should have faith in the judgment of our COAS.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Do you really think that Chaudhry Nisar is privy to CIA-led operations? Don't be naive.

Again I would repeat what I said before. Ignorance is not the excuse. CIA didnt have any clue, it was JSOC ran operation.

Right.

Some information that you might want to digest: http://nation.com.pk/international/25-May-2016/how-us-tracked-and-killed-taliban-leader-wsj

I am not the ones who give monkies to media mouth piece of American establishment. I got my own people within Pakistan from the postion in power telling me through my own media as to what happened.

You are however free to believe whatever suite you.

 

[LeGenD]

Again I would repeat what I said before. Ignorance is not the excuse. CIA didnt have any clue, it was JSOC ran operation.

CIA was involved in providing information but JSOC completed the mission:

The U.S. normally would want multiple drones to keep eyes on such an important target. Because CIA drones weren’t operating in the area, U.S. spy agencies relied on signals intelligence and other location information to track the Corolla’s journey, according to U.S.officials. Armed drones based in Afghanistan and piloted by the U.S. military’s Joint Special Operations Command were preparing to move in for the kill, the officials said.

I am not the ones who give monkies to media mouth piece of American establishment. I got my own people within Pakistan from the postion in power telling me through my own media as to what happened.

Source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tracked-taliban-leader-before-drone-strike-1464109562

I am not the ones who give monkies to media mouth piece of American establishment. I got my own people within Pakistan from the postion in power telling me through my own media as to what happened.

You are however free to believe whatever suite you.

The article that I shared with you is not your average media mouthpiece information. It is from WSJ and you cannot access its articles without subscription. Somebody, took advantage of his subscription of WSJ and leaked this article to The Nation however.

Pakistani authorities can convey only their perspective of an operation to the public, an operation of which they were not part of. If you seek information of the actual operation, you will have to pay attention to American sources.

One should always keep an open mind.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

CIA was involved in providing information but JSOC completed the mission:

The U.S. normally would want multiple drones to keep eyes on such an important target. Because CIA drones weren’t operating in the area, U.S. spy agencies relied on signals intelligence and other location information to track the Corolla’s journey, according to U.S.officials. Armed drones based in Afghanistan and piloted by the U.S. military’s Joint Special Operations Command were preparing to move in for the kill, the officials said.

I am not the ones who give monkies to media mouth piece of American establishment. I got my own people within Pakistan from the postion in power telling me through my own media as to what happened.

Source: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tracked-taliban-leader-before-drone-strike-1464109562


The article that I shared with you is not your average media mouthpiece information. It is from WSJ and you cannot access its articles without subscription. Somebody, took advantage of his subscription of WSJ and leaked this article to The Nation however.

Pakistani authorities can convey only their perspective of an operation to the public, an operation of which they were not part of. If you seek information of the actual operation, you will have to pay attention to American sources.

One should always keep an open mind.

Ah yes ISI also provided the information to the yanks about the whereabouts of OBL but we all know how it went.

Media on its own is nothing, the information is leaked through media by governments or the intelligence agencies to achieve certain goals and propaganda.

What I am saying to you the if a person in authority, using the state resources available to him is negating this drone theory, irrespective of what yanks and their media mouth peace is saying, and that person happen to be the 2nd most powerful man in government of Pakistan and not only that, a retired four star general is also saying that it was a inside job within the ranks of Taliban (turncoats), it is not a rocket science is it?

 

[LeGenD]

Ah yes ISI also provided the information to the yanks about the whereabouts of OBL but we all know how it went.

ISI wasn't aware of presence of OBL in Abbottabad; ISI was however aware that some terrorists/militants have taken shelter in this wonderful city and was busy screening it. ISI had been tracking OBL's courier for a while and disclosed his identity to CIA. However, ISI was given the impression that CIA was not much interested in tracking OBL. In reality, CIA was looking forward to double-cross ISI in this matter. American leadership wanted to take full credit of assassinating the most-wanted man in the country and therefore decided to make it unilateral.

Media on its own is nothing, the information is leaked through media by governments or the intelligence agencies to achieve certain goals and propaganda.

Agreed

What I am saying to you the if a person in authority, using the state resources available to him is negating this drone theory, irrespective of what yanks and their media mouth peace is saying, and that person happen to be the 2nd most powerful man in government of Pakistan and not only that, a retired four star general is also saying that it was a inside job within the ranks of Taliban (turncoats), it is not a rocket science is it?

First, provide evidence of Chaudhry Nisar refuting the drone strike theory.

Secondly, Chaudhry Nisar was not aware of the incident until Americans disclosed the information. No matter how powerful he is, he is only privy to developments concerning Pakistan. I don't think that Americans are too keen to share information of their clandestine/unilateral operations with him before executing them.

Third, how is a (retired) military professional privy to details of an operation of which he was not part of? What evidence he have provided for his account to be taken seriously?

 

[guest11]

The 1971 conflict was largely a manifestation of Pakistani internal political crises.

Agree

US wasn't keen in getting involved in an internal affair.

Disagree

The 7th fleet came because Indian forces invaded East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and Indian leadership was plotting to do the same in the West.

Disagree

7th fleet would have sprung into action if India had invaded West Pakistan in full force.

They tried but they couldn't.

If you want detailed answers please open a new thread and we shall continue there.