DRDO 155mm/52cal Artillery Program (ATAGS)

[Sneaker]

What? Did you even read the specs?

It's a fully computerized artillery piece.

So is for example Dhanush.

There is no such thing as "fully computerized". As I said, WW-2 systems achieved whatever precision that a ballistic system can achieve, using high precision mechanical sights. If you replace those mechanical sights with computer, there will be no change in the end results. Your precision is still same or a very marginal improvement. It is by no means futuristic. That is the problem with govt labs. Army is in dire need of arty system, and these labs are coming up with "futuristic concepts" that is antique even now. So, when they deliver first product 20 years later, those can be towed directly to a museum. Any present day tech needs to fire guided ammo, should have shoot and scoot and auto loader (155 mm is not a light arty system). Period. Hopefully we get something like these in next century.

 

[Echo_419]

The DRDO MUST outsource production to a pvt entity (my ideal candidates are L&T and TATA) to make this a success and in IA service in sufficient numbers.

What I don't get is there is a separate procurement going on for towed artillery systems from foreign firms. So will the IA be procuring a foreign towed gun and DRDO's ATAGS?

Agreed a competitive tender must be put out for Production & whoever wins it must be awarded the Production Contract

 

[Abingdonboy]

Bharat Forge would be a better bet, they are pretty much the group with the skills & ability to do a world class job here. L&T & TATA too could do it but this is bread & butter for Bharat Forge.

I don't have much knowledge on Bharat Forge sir. I just think L&T and TATA have the inclination to get into defence and the seriously deep pockets required to set up the production units.

 

[Kinetic]

Hope it doesn't prove to be another failure

All the drdo projects are successes unlike renaming chinese systems after some invaders. lol

 

[Juggernautjatt]

I don't have much knowledge on Bharat Forge sir. I just think L&T and TATA have the inclination to get into defence and the seriously deep pockets required to set up the production units.

Bharat Forge has well established infrastructure of production units. During Kargil War Bharat Forge supplied 1 lakh arty shells to army on short notice. BFL today has the largest repository of metallurgical knowledge in the region. It is one of the world's largest forging companies with manufacturing facilities spread across India, Germany and Sweden.
Although not as big as TATA & L&T but still it is a a USD 2.5 billion conglomerate.

 

[Omega007]

I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on electronics, but "technology" in mechanical systems is a joke. Futuristic artillery? may be in 3500 BCE, but not now. Apart from some nice CAD model, what other info do we have on arty system? self loader? no? shoot and scoot? no? auto fire control such that multiple rounds (typically 7) land at same time (to avoid CIWS and assist in shoot & scoot)? no? then what is difference between WW2 arty and this one? Hell, there isn't a single proto of this yet, right? In current scenario (like recent cease fire violation), imagine if we had guided arties, with fire finders.. by the time first enemy round lands, their bunker/vehicle mounted arty is blown up.. do we have that tech? no? Private players are not doing R&D because govt doesn't buy anything from them. Otherwise they would purchase tech, even a generation old (initially) and develop from there... not to keep on looking for "futuristic" tech from these labs which for rest of the world is antique..

You are not knowledgeable enough to comment on anything kiddo,better go and read something before coming out here and defecating all over the threads you moron.

For starter,look up the schematics first,there is already an electrical rammer in place for reloading the gun.Same is the case with the present Dhanush howitzer you moron.Look before you open your filthy mouth.

Then,shoot and scoot!!Are you fucking kidding me boyo??This is supposed to be a towed howitzer...........TOWED.It is not supposed to be as mobile as the SPHs.Still the ATAGS will be mounted on ATVs for limited mobility which is the trend world over.Just read up about other 155mm towed artys like the Panter or the FH 2000.

Then coming to MRSI,of course the ATAGS is supposed to have MRSI capability.

And now comes the gem - "to avoid CIWS"!!What the hell did I just read!!CIWS...............seriously??!!Do you even know what CIWS means,what they are used against??How come a CIWS ever become a threat to an artillery piece??

Then the fire finders - ever heard of the Swati weapons loacting radars??

 

[Sneaker]

You are not knowledgeable enough to comment on anything kiddo,better go and read something before coming out here and defecating all over the threads you moron.

For starter,look up the schematics first,there is already an electrical rammer in place for reloading the gun.Same is the case with the present Dhanush howitzer you moron.Look before you open your filthy mouth.

Then,shoot and scoot!!Are you fucking kidding me boyo??This is supposed to be a towed howitzer...........TOWED you moron.It is not supposed to be as mobile as the SPHs.Still the ATAGS will be mounted on ATVs for limited mobility which is the trend world over.Just read up about other 155mm towed artys like the Panter or the FH 2000.

Then coming to MRSI,of course the ATAGS is supposed to have MRSI capability.

And now comes the gem - "to avoid CIWS"!!What the hell did I just read!!CIWS...............seriously??!!Do you even know what CIWS means,what they are used against??How come a CIWS ever become a threat to an artillery piece you moron??

Then the fire finders - ever heard of the Swati weapons loacting radars dickhead??

And I will tell you what is the difference between the ATAGS and a WWII era artillery - it's the same difference between your mouth and your fucking @rsewhole dickhead,but I have got doubt if there is actually any difference between that two part of your body though.

LOL, v-mouth.. explains your neg rating... Electrical ram is auto-loading? hmm... very futuristic... With all infinite wisdom on earth, scratch that, in universe vested in thy, CIWS is not only used in navy, it is also being used to takeout arty shells, like from a decade ago. And if you did not have 2 arseholes instead of eyes, could have easily noticed "self propelled" words in the poster. And what about fire finders? did I say we don't have it? looks like your rectum is in your head along with the content of it. No go back into the dark underworld you crawled out from... moron...

 

[Omega007]

There is no such thing as "fully computerized". As I said, WW-2 systems achieved whatever precision that a ballistic system can achieve, using high precision mechanical sights. If you replace those mechanical sights with computer, there will be no change in the end results. Your precision is still same or a very marginal improvement. It is by no means futuristic. That is the problem with govt labs. Army is in dire need of arty system, and these labs are coming up with "futuristic concepts" that is antique even now. So, when they deliver first product 20 years later, those can be towed directly to a museum. Any present day tech needs to fire guided ammo, should have shoot and scoot and auto loader (155 mm is not a light arty system). Period. Hopefully we get something like these in next century.

Hey listen,stop your nonsense already,will ya??Not computerized huh??Go read up a bit about the Shakti Artillery Command and Control System.
What kind of an idiot could actually compare a primitive mechanical sighting system to a all digital computerized one??Then why do you think the fighters,ships,tanks,ICVs along with every other fucking things have moved on to use digitized ballistic computers instead of sticking to those rudimentary mechanical sights??
I will tell you why - because there is simply no such thing as a high precision mechanical sighting system.Just for once try to use a military grade simulator like the one developed by ECIM - the Still Beasts Pro PE (PE stands for Personal Edition).It comes as close to the real things as possible,it is so much realistic that even the USA and NATO use a version of it to train their tank and ICV crews.Just try to hit a moving target from just 800 meter distance by using your so called " high precision mechanical sights" like the Stadia sights or the stereoscopic sights.But it's not come cheap like you,it comes at a price of some 125 USD.
Only then you will come to realise what a big fool you made of yourself when you wrote this following paragraph - " As I said, WW-2 systems achieved whatever precision that a ballistic system can achieve, using high precision mechanical sights. If you replace those mechanical sights with computer, there will be no change in the end results. Your precision is still same or a very marginal improvement. It is by no means futuristic."

Boy,the computerized digital sights are lightyears ahead of your " high precision mechanical sights" of WWII era.Even sticking them in the same sentence is outrageous!!But how could you know possibly??I know your kind only too well.You just look at a few shiney things,read a few lines from here and there and voila..........you star to to think that you have figured it out all and then start to fill each and every threads with all sorts of outrageous claims.And then in order to support your claims,you start to pull out even more bullshit from your behind.

 

[Omega007]

LOL, v-mouth.. explains your neg rating... Electrical ram is auto-loading? hmm... very futuristic... With all infinite wisdom on earth, scratch that, in universe vested in thy, CIWS is not only used in navy, it is also being used to takeout arty shells, like from a decade ago. And if you did not have 2 arseholes instead of eyes, could have easily noticed "self propelled" words in the poster. And what about fire finders? did I say we don't have it? looks like your rectum is in your head along with the content of it. No go back into the dark underworld you crawled out from... moron...

What self propelld you fucking son of a bitch??It is called ATAGS,ever think why is it called as such you dickhead,huh??And who told you that MRSI is intended to defeat a CIWS you idiot.And read first what you wrote yourself about the firefinders you illiterate turd.And what is guided artillery you fucking idiot??Accept it that you know not a thing about anything you dimwitted moron.

 

[Omega007]

Oh and I almost forgot Mr Knicker (or was it Sneaker??) ,which of the latest towed guns like the Panter or the FH 2000 sport an autoloader as of now??and how to you install an autoloader (other that a rammer) to a towed gun??Where you gonna install the magazine to hold the ready to use ammo and charges - in your arse I guess??Boy,let me give you a free advice - get your head out of your @rse and try to think before you type...............ciao.

 

[Sneaker]

Can't stop laughing. See, you can shut-up and let everybody think you are a fool than to open your mouth and confirm it. I did write about fire finders along with something else... that something else was "guided munition"... current MRSIs are 7 rounds and our "futuristic" system has 5 rounds? OMG.. mega futuristic right?? If you are too fcking idiot to follow 'current" trends in arty, armies fire GPS/satnav (even laser, may be) guided arty rounds to hit where it hurts most. Can these "futuristic" system do what many countries doing now? It is funny that you started bad mouthing standing on a perceived high ground about CIWS, I think now you have realized what is your worth... FYI, these guided munitions defeat the enemy FF systems to a major extent since they don't follow defined ballistic path... time for you to shut up and allow some grown-ups to discuss..

 

[Sneaker]

Oh and I almost forgot Mr Knicker (or was it Sneaker??) ,which of the latest towed guns like the Panter or the FH 2000 sport an autoloader as of now??and how to you install an autoloader (other that a rammer) to a towed gun??Where you gonna install the magazine to hold the ready to use ammo and charges - in your arse I guess??Boy,let me give you a free advice - get your head out of your @rse and try to think before you type...............ciao.

Well, our project says "futuristic". And if have eyes instead of 2 poop holes, you would have seen "self-propelled" by now..

 

[Sam_Bajwa]

There is no such thing as "fully computerized". As I said, WW-2 systems achieved whatever precision that a ballistic system can achieve, using high precision mechanical sights. If you replace those mechanical sights with computer, there will be no change in the end results. Your precision is still same or a very marginal improvement. It is by no means futuristic. That is the problem with govt labs. Army is in dire need of arty system, and these labs are coming up with "futuristic concepts" that is antique even now. So, when they deliver first product 20 years later, those can be towed directly to a museum. Any present day tech needs to fire guided ammo, should have shoot and scoot and auto loader (155 mm is not a light arty system). Period. Hopefully we get something like these in next century.

Good point brother but everything takes time
The thing is we have some very obsolete equipment the present field guns we have require the gunners to push the ammo with hand which some times can cut off fingers and other than bofors which is semi auto and self loading we have nothing that magnificent to show off. Also most of the equipments we have are not indian be it guns or arty observation equipment .
Lets keep our fingers crossed and pray for success.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

There is no such thing as "fully computerized". As I said, WW-2 systems achieved whatever precision that a ballistic system can achieve, using high precision mechanical sights. If you replace those mechanical sights with computer, there will be no change in the end results. Your precision is still same or a very marginal improvement. It is by no means futuristic. That is the problem with govt labs. Army is in dire need of arty system, and these labs are coming up with "futuristic concepts" that is antique even now. So, when they deliver first product 20 years later, those can be towed directly to a museum. Any present day tech needs to fire guided ammo, should have shoot and scoot and auto loader (155 mm is not a light arty system). Period. Hopefully we get something like these in next century.

Digitizing artillery is the recent trend all over the world, you're right it's not futuristic, but modern.

And practically all the 155mm/52cal being offered are digitized to a degree. If it wasn't beneficial, this wouldn't be the trend. If it makes life easier doing calculations more accurately on a computer, instead manually on a board and paper, using simpler tools, great. I think it's worth it in a scenario where time is of essence. And what do you mean by shoot and scout? Most modern towed artillery can self propel itself with out the truck. And modern artillery rounds like Excalibur also provides it to be digitzed.

All of that wasnt even the point. There are no private companies making their own designs. If it was so simple, they wouldnt have to grab tech from Europe, South Africa, or ARDE for tech absorption.

Until they actually show their own work, they need DRDO more than DRDO needs thems. Quite frankly, these PPP arrangements aren't even a bad thing.

 

[Sneaker]

Digitizing artillery is the recent trend all over the world, you're right it's not futuristic, but modern.

And practically all the 155mm/52cal being offered are digitized to a degree. If it wasn't beneficial, this wouldn't be the trend. If it makes life easier doing calculations more accurately on a computer, instead manually on a board and paper, using simpler tools, great. I think it's worth it in a scenario where time is of essence. And what do you mean by shoot and scout? Most modern towed artillery can self propel itself with out the truck. And modern artillery rounds like Excalibur also provides it to be digitzed.

All of that wasnt even the point. There are no private companies making their own designs. If it was so simple, they wouldnt have to grab tech from Europe, South Africa, or ARDE for tech absorption.

Until they actually show their own work, they need DRDO more than DRDO needs thems. Quite frankly, these PPP arrangements aren't even a bad thing.

My problem is that trying out new concept is all good when your current situation is not bad. Otherwise it is like digging well for water after one's beard is on fire. Now the situation is kind of circular, no orders hence no pvt firms. No pvt firms hence no order. I mean, do we even allow pvt firms to do R&D on guns and ammunition? I think our babus will get heart attack if they come to know that some pvt companies are experimenting with guns and ammunition. I think govt should break this cycle instead of continuing status-quo. IMO, based on India's conflict scenario, current specs OK if delivered in next some years, otherwise it will be outdated which will result in the same bad cycle of changing spec and further delay. But your point is right, it is definitely modern (provided systems are delivered on time), not futuristic. Another point is, what is DRDO experience in arty system vis-a-vis pvt companies? This is first project for even DRDO. Looking at the specs, can't pvt companies buy 1970s technology and digitize them locally?? I work for one of the contenders of this project and anecdotally know one successful project our company worked directly with end customer. Whole point is, DRDO is not accountable, while pvt players are. That makes all the difference. Either manage DRDO like pvt firm (which is not possible) or take them out of the scene when not required. Like MKU, a good example how you can one buy moderately outdated/even new tech and then innovate and improve to come up with a very competitive product.