Does a fifth gen fighter change the dynamics of aerial warfare in S. Asia?

[randomradio]

Nope, you are wrong because Turkey first localize it then offer it to Pakistan.

Any Turkish jet will come with a sanction-prone British engine. So you will have to consider that.

 

[Basel]

Any Turkish jet will come with a sanction-prone British engine. So you will have to consider that.

Pakistan is not buying Turkish Jet its about sub systems and possible joint development of systems or jet.

Same is happening in other military projects.

 

[randomradio]

Pakistan is not buying Turkish Jet its about sub systems and possible joint development of systems or jet.

Same is happening in other military projects.

You had quoted a post about TFX.

 

[Basel]

You had quoted a post about TFX.

TFX is offered to Pakistan and even if we did not join the project, we will collaborate in subsystems of TFX as both countries have agreed in many areas.

 

[randomradio]

TFX is offered to Pakistan and even if we did not join the project, we will collaborate in subsystems of TFX as both countries have agreed in many areas.

And if you actually go for TFX, then you have to be worried about sanctions since the British will supply its engine.

 

[niaz]

When India attacked Chawinda with 600 tanks we only needed a few good men to tackle it. Similarly if our backs were to be against the wall, we would again need a few more good men and blessings of Allah to come out of it Insha Allah!

For the record, this the full story:


Battle of Chawinda – Graveyard Of Indian Tanks – The Largest Tank Battle since WWII

May 17, 2016 Waqas Ali

India and Pakistan had been at war, covertly or overtly, since the latter was carved out of the Indian subcontinent on the 14th August 1947. Kashmir has been a major bone of contention between these two states, and three major wars have been fought over the Kashmir region.

The Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 was the most decisive of all the wars fought between the two countries. It started in the month of August and lasted until 23rd September 1965. The major portion of the armor and weaponry used by both countries was provided by the Americans, Russians and British who were getting rid of older equipment used in WW2. The Battle of Chawinda was one of the major battles fought during this war and is now hailed as one of the largest tank battles since the Battle of Kursk in WWII.

The City of Sialkot in Pakistan was one of the cities which the Indians had planned to use as a base for further operations within Pakistan, once captured. The town of Chawinda lies a few miles from the main city and was the center of the action. General Dunn was the commander of the I Corps-Indian Army and was put in charge of an armored division, a mountain division, and 2 other divisions.

The strength of the Indian forces ranged from 80,000 to 150,000 infantry and 230 tanks that consisted of both Centurions and Shermans. On the other hand, the Pakistani force that planned to repulse the attack initially consisted of an armored, an infantry and an artillery division. Later during the battle, reinforcements arrived, including another infantry division and another armored division. The Pakistani side consisted of 30,000 to 50,000 infantry, 132 tanks who were tasked with the initial defense and 150 reinforcements who retreated from the nearby tank battle of Phillora without many losses. Both Sherman and Patton tanks took part in at the battle.

On 7th September, Indian forces consisting of 1st Armored Division, 14th Infantry, and 6thMountain took control of the border area planning to cut off Pakistan’s supply lines. Following this, a short skirmish between the two took place which resulted in Pakistan losing 10 of its tanks. India had established its dominion over the Sialkot railway. Realizing the magnitude of the situation, the Pakistanis ordered two regiments of the 6th Armored Division to aid the 7th Infantry Division currently repulsing Indian attacks.

In addition, an independent Tank Destroyer Squadron was put to action, amounting to 135 tanks. There were 24 M47 & M48 Pattons as well as some Shermans. Anticipating the movements of the Pakistani 6th Armored Division, the Indian forces planned to drive a wedge between Sialkot and the Division. All was in India’s favor as the Pakistanis only had a single regiment at that time – even though the order was for 2 to reach the city. The Indian 1st armored brigade was divided up and, along with the 43rd Lorried Infantry Brigade, advanced towards the Pakistanis.

The main portion of the 1st Armored Brigade was sent towards the nearby town of Phillora. The tank battle that took place there was won by the Indian forces since the Pakistani regiments retreated after a few days of battle. The decision to retreat gave Pakistan a strategic edge as they successfully saved their armor from destruction. This worked in their favor at the main Battle of Chawinda.

The Pakistanis also had a newly raised tank division commanded by newly trained young officers all with high morale. The Pakistani Airforce also managed to slow down the Indian advance at Phillora to some extent, but the Indian force was too large to be completely stopped. Soon enough the 25th Cavalry of the Pakistani Army saw approaching dust columns. On 10th September, the Indians resumed their attacks while engaging multiple corps and managed to push the Pakistanis back to defensive positions in Sialkot.

The Pakistani position was perilous. All their counterattacks had been met with harsh resistance. The Indians outnumbered the Pakistanis 10 to 1. however, Pakistani reinforcements were on their way – another two divisions, one of infantry and one of tanks. The Pakistanis who were now settled at Chawinda were ready to go on the offensive, and every attack by the Indians was repulsed.

By the morning of 14th September, the Pakistani 6th Armored Division organized under Colonel Wajahat was holding a pivotal location in the Chawinda region. The Indians had put their minds to work and it was clear they weren’t going to leave any stone unturned in capturing Chawinda. The Indian plan was to cut the supply route between the stationed forces and the central command, to surround the Pakistani forces as much as possible so that the thrust of the Pakistani armor never joined the smaller units of the Pakistani army, and to establish an attacking position from the captured town of Phillora.

The Indian assault didn’t gain any momentum till late night when they captured a few nearby villages. The Indian tanks consisting of 4 regiments tried to ram through the 3 Pakistani regiments but failed to do so due to the superior formations of the Pakistanis. There was utter chaos on the fields as the Pakistani Pattons engaged with Indian Centurions and Shermans.

The Pakistani 25th Cavalry played a major part too, with shiny new armor and officers who were well versed in modern warfare tactics. The air force and artillery played less of a part of this engagement since the two sides had essentially mingled with each other. There were full frontal clashes between the two sides and only after a significant distance had been established between the two did the Pakistani artillery with its newly acquired US guns engaged the Indians, destroying much of the retreating Indian side. At the end of the day, the battlefield looked like a graveyard of tanks.

But once again, the Indians regrouped. They weren’t ready to surrender just yet so they planned to outflank the Pakistanis on 16th September. This time, the Pakistani Artillery came in earlier and prevented the Indian advance completely. The Pakistani artillery was commanded by Shaukat Riza, who was excellent at making use of the resources he had. Even though the Indians had 6 artillery brigades, they managed to cover only 3000 yards in 15 hours. The infantry was scattered all along the line and every time they tried to regroup the Pakistani guns raged thunder on them with 90 artillery pieces including 12x 8-inch howitzers.

On 21st September, the Indians withdrew back to their original defensive positions and all operations were ceased. The Pakistani Generals vetoed a counterattack against the Indians proposed by the officers on the field as they didn’t have a backup plan in place. In addition, foreign efforts to end the war had worked and on 22nd September, the UNSC passed a resolution demanding an unconditional ceasefire from both nations.


Both the countries agreed to do so and the hostilities formally ended on 23rd September. The territories gained by both countries were returned after the Tashkent Declaration was signed by both countries sponsored by the Soviet Union. The victory of the battle was attributed to Pakistan as it gained equal leverage during the final peace deal, something that might not have happened, had the Pakistani Army been unable to defend their positions from the invasion.


https://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/battle-chawinda-largest-tank-battle-since-wwii.html

 

[litman]

fifth gen jet will greatly enhance the capability of any force to carry out deep strike in the enemy territory or preventing the enemy air crafts from entering into own air space but in case of india pak scenario they will not be required as the chances of full scale war are very less and if any country starts losing in conventional war it will go for the nuclear strike and that means end of both the countries. in that scenario it doesnt matter whether they have fifth gen or first gen jets as they both will be destroyed.

 

[Basel]

And if you actually go for TFX, then you have to be worried about sanctions since the British will supply its engine.

Nope, brits already have assured maintenance facility of engines if Pakistan choose EJ-200 for JFT, so no issue.

 

[Joe Shearer]

When India attacked Chawinda with 600 tanks we only needed a few good men to tackle it. Similarly if our backs were to be against the wall, we would again need a few more good men and blessings of Allah to come out of it Insha Allah!

Seldom read a sillier remark. Here we go again, counting how many Indian Army soldiers can be handled by a single Pakistan Army soldier.

 

[Canuck786]

Seldom read a sillier remark. Here we go again, counting how many Indian Army soldiers can be handled by a single Pakistan Army soldier.

It shouldn't seem silly after I quoted the relevant history? For the record it was an answer to a hypothetical question from a respected member as such a historical precedence was referred to for a hypothetical answer. Perhaps, you read it out of context.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Your post shows you have no clue about level of military cooperation between Turkey and Pakistan since 1947.

The Turkish Chairman of the General Staffs was honored with a tour inside the Pak's top secret nukes manufacturing facility during an official visit. As far as I know even no Pak PM had been there...

 

[Canuck786]

For the record, this the full story:


Battle of Chawinda – Graveyard Of Indian Tanks – The Largest Tank Battle since WWII

May 17, 2016 Waqas Ali

India and Pakistan had been at war, covertly or overtly, since the latter was carved out of the Indian subcontinent on the 14th August 1947. Kashmir has been a major bone of contention between these two states, and three major wars have been fought over the Kashmir region.

The Indo-Pakistani war of 1965 was the most decisive of all the wars fought between the two countries. It started in the month of August and lasted until 23rd September 1965. The major portion of the armor and weaponry used by both countries was provided by the Americans, Russians and British who were getting rid of older equipment used in WW2. The Battle of Chawinda was one of the major battles fought during this war and is now hailed as one of the largest tank battles since the Battle of Kursk in WWII.

The City of Sialkot in Pakistan was one of the cities which the Indians had planned to use as a base for further operations within Pakistan, once captured. The town of Chawinda lies a few miles from the main city and was the center of the action. General Dunn was the commander of the I Corps-Indian Army and was put in charge of an armored division, a mountain division, and 2 other divisions.

The strength of the Indian forces ranged from 80,000 to 150,000 infantry and 230 tanks that consisted of both Centurions and Shermans. On the other hand, the Pakistani force that planned to repulse the attack initially consisted of an armored, an infantry and an artillery division. Later during the battle, reinforcements arrived, including another infantry division and another armored division. The Pakistani side consisted of 30,000 to 50,000 infantry, 132 tanks who were tasked with the initial defense and 150 reinforcements who retreated from the nearby tank battle of Phillora without many losses. Both Sherman and Patton tanks took part in at the battle.

On 7th September, Indian forces consisting of 1st Armored Division, 14th Infantry, and 6thMountain took control of the border area planning to cut off Pakistan’s supply lines. Following this, a short skirmish between the two took place which resulted in Pakistan losing 10 of its tanks. India had established its dominion over the Sialkot railway. Realizing the magnitude of the situation, the Pakistanis ordered two regiments of the 6th Armored Division to aid the 7th Infantry Division currently repulsing Indian attacks.

In addition, an independent Tank Destroyer Squadron was put to action, amounting to 135 tanks. There were 24 M47 & M48 Pattons as well as some Shermans. Anticipating the movements of the Pakistani 6th Armored Division, the Indian forces planned to drive a wedge between Sialkot and the Division. All was in India’s favor as the Pakistanis only had a single regiment at that time – even though the order was for 2 to reach the city. The Indian 1st armored brigade was divided up and, along with the 43rd Lorried Infantry Brigade, advanced towards the Pakistanis.

The main portion of the 1st Armored Brigade was sent towards the nearby town of Phillora. The tank battle that took place there was won by the Indian forces since the Pakistani regiments retreated after a few days of battle. The decision to retreat gave Pakistan a strategic edge as they successfully saved their armor from destruction. This worked in their favor at the main Battle of Chawinda.

The Pakistanis also had a newly raised tank division commanded by newly trained young officers all with high morale. The Pakistani Airforce also managed to slow down the Indian advance at Phillora to some extent, but the Indian force was too large to be completely stopped. Soon enough the 25th Cavalry of the Pakistani Army saw approaching dust columns. On 10th September, the Indians resumed their attacks while engaging multiple corps and managed to push the Pakistanis back to defensive positions in Sialkot.

The Pakistani position was perilous. All their counterattacks had been met with harsh resistance. The Indians outnumbered the Pakistanis 10 to 1. however, Pakistani reinforcements were on their way – another two divisions, one of infantry and one of tanks. The Pakistanis who were now settled at Chawinda were ready to go on the offensive, and every attack by the Indians was repulsed.

By the morning of 14th September, the Pakistani 6th Armored Division organized under Colonel Wajahat was holding a pivotal location in the Chawinda region. The Indians had put their minds to work and it was clear they weren’t going to leave any stone unturned in capturing Chawinda. The Indian plan was to cut the supply route between the stationed forces and the central command, to surround the Pakistani forces as much as possible so that the thrust of the Pakistani armor never joined the smaller units of the Pakistani army, and to establish an attacking position from the captured town of Phillora.

The Indian assault didn’t gain any momentum till late night when they captured a few nearby villages. The Indian tanks consisting of 4 regiments tried to ram through the 3 Pakistani regiments but failed to do so due to the superior formations of the Pakistanis. There was utter chaos on the fields as the Pakistani Pattons engaged with Indian Centurions and Shermans.

The Pakistani 25th Cavalry played a major part too, with shiny new armor and officers who were well versed in modern warfare tactics. The air force and artillery played less of a part of this engagement since the two sides had essentially mingled with each other. There were full frontal clashes between the two sides and only after a significant distance had been established between the two did the Pakistani artillery with its newly acquired US guns engaged the Indians, destroying much of the retreating Indian side. At the end of the day, the battlefield looked like a graveyard of tanks.

But once again, the Indians regrouped. They weren’t ready to surrender just yet so they planned to outflank the Pakistanis on 16th September. This time, the Pakistani Artillery came in earlier and prevented the Indian advance completely. The Pakistani artillery was commanded by Shaukat Riza, who was excellent at making use of the resources he had. Even though the Indians had 6 artillery brigades, they managed to cover only 3000 yards in 15 hours. The infantry was scattered all along the line and every time they tried to regroup the Pakistani guns raged thunder on them with 90 artillery pieces including 12x 8-inch howitzers.

On 21st September, the Indians withdrew back to their original defensive positions and all operations were ceased. The Pakistani Generals vetoed a counterattack against the Indians proposed by the officers on the field as they didn’t have a backup plan in place. In addition, foreign efforts to end the war had worked and on 22nd September, the UNSC passed a resolution demanding an unconditional ceasefire from both nations.


Both the countries agreed to do so and the hostilities formally ended on 23rd September. The territories gained by both countries were returned after the Tashkent Declaration was signed by both countries sponsored by the Soviet Union. The victory of the battle was attributed to Pakistan as it gained equal leverage during the final peace deal, something that might not have happened, had the Pakistani Army been unable to defend their positions from the invasion.


https://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/battle-chawinda-largest-tank-battle-since-wwii.html

@niaz sb, please correct my record as I remember being taught in school that there were 600 tanks on attack while the article suggests there were only 230?

 

[Joe Shearer]

It shouldn't seem silly after I quoted the relevant history? For the record it was an answer to a hypothetical question from a respected member as such a historical precedence was referred to for a hypothetical answer. Perhaps, you read it out of context.

The context is important, and I agree that I read it without considering the context. However, the historical precedent is what I take exception to. You started by trebling the number of tanks deployed by the Indians at Chawinda; that was not a good beginning. 600 in place of 230? and in case you want to know how that figure comes out, it is 45 * 3 = 135 Sherman tanks, + 45 * 2 = 90 Centurion tanks.

You went on to talk about the handful, a few good men. Let's take a look: 30,000 to 150,000 infantry, 132 + 150 (later) = 282 tanks. That's a handful?

It is interesting to know what would constitute a mass in such an assessment.

If you are looking at the brilliant performance of 25 Cavalry, and the scintillating leadership of Lt. Col. Nisar Ahmed Khan, that is exactly how it happened, except that their performance doesn't make the other 238 tanks vanish into thin air.

The example was an awful one, inaccurate as well as jingoist. If you want to be a hyper-jingo troll, feel free. Just pointing it out as a silly point of view in military history.

It shouldn't seem silly after I quoted the relevant history? For the record it was an answer to a hypothetical question from a respected member as such a historical precedence was referred to for a hypothetical answer. Perhaps, you read it out of context.

Meanwhile, feel free also to defend your position in the interaction that may follow.

 

[Canuck786]

The context is important, and I agree that I read it without considering the context. However, the historical precedent is what I take exception to. You started by trebling the number of tanks deployed by the Indians at Chawinda; that was not a good beginning. 600 in place of 230? and in case you want to know how that figure comes out, it is 45 * 3 = 135 Sherman tanks, + 45 * 2 = 90 Centurion tanks.

You went on to talk about the handful, a few good men. Let's take a look: 30,000 to 150,000 infantry, 132 + 150 (later) = 282 tanks. That's a handful?

It is interesting to know what would constitute a mass in such an assessment.

If you are looking at the brilliant performance of 25 Cavalry, and the scintillating leadership of Lt. Col. Nisar Ahmed Khan, that is exactly how it happened, except that their performance doesn't make the other 238 tanks vanish into thin air.

The example was an awful one, inaccurate as well as jingoist. If you want to be a hyper-jingo troll, feel free. Just pointing it out as a silly point of view in military history.



Meanwhile, feel free also to defend your position in the interaction that may follow.

I may be wrong and conversely you may be correct. But read the following article and tell me if I was wrong.

https://nation.com.pk/06-Sep-2017/chawinda-the-graveyard-of-indian-tanks-warplanes

 

[randomradio]

Nope, brits already have assured maintenance facility of engines if Pakistan choose EJ-200 for JFT, so no issue.

As long as the engine is imported, it can be sanctioned. A maintenance facility is irrelevant if the supplies stop.

It shouldn't seem silly after I quoted the relevant history? For the record it was an answer to a hypothetical question from a respected member as such a historical precedence was referred to for a hypothetical answer. Perhaps, you read it out of context.

In the Battle of Chawinda, Pakistan had 3 times more modern tanks than India did and roughly the same number of infantry. And India was the one attacking, so we did it without enough numerical advantage. But in the end, we still held a lot of Pakistani territory in the region.