Do Pakistanis feel schadenfreude towards India's Minorities?

[Developereo]

Yes, we would have demanded a lot of things. If could, we would even have demanded Korea & Japan. But would we have got them?

That was precisely my point: that focus on ethnicity as a definition of Pakistan was flawed.

You see, the point is that our country's creation was based on the idea that religion is a stronger identity that ethnicity.

Is that true?

I am not asking about for liberal ideals and integrative philosophies. I am asking about the facts on the ground. What is the reality?

The country's creation was based on the discrimination and injustices faced. If that discrimination had been based on ethnicity, you would have seen a separatist movement based on ethnicity -- plenty abound in the modern world. In this particular case, the basis of discrimination, and impetus for separation, was religious bigotry against Muslims (due to the invasions, etc.)

Is it true that religion is a stronger bond than ethnolinguistic identity? When you open your eyes, what is that you see?

For some people it is, not for others.

Muslims around the world hold on to their regional traditions along with Islam. Same thing for other religions.

You now sound like Maulana Azad. This is exactly what he said opposing the very creation of Pakistan. He said, exactly as you did, that we should all emphasize commalities and downplay differences. He argued that India's Muslims would continue to have their "cultural uniqueness" (your words) but that did not mean that they would not be as Indian as anyone else. Please see your fellow philosopher here:

Abul Kalam Azad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not at all. I would liken my view closer to Jinnah.

It is always advisable to seek resolution within before opting for separation. Since I was not alive at the time, I will take Jinnah's decision on faith that reconciliation was impossible and partition was the only option.

God forbid that anything should be a prerequiste for Pakistani Identity (perhaps with the exception of Islam). I am sure we can accomodate a lot of very diverse people (as long as they are Muslims).

But I am happy to see that we are now truly taking pride in the IVC and moving away from that childish notion that Bin Qasim was the First Pakistani. But when you say it does not define Pakistani identity, I am left a little confused: Then what does? What defines our Pakistani identity? Is it fuzzy logic? Swirling mists of Messianic hope? Could you be more specific?

Once again, I made it clear earlier that the progressive vision of Pakistan includes religious freedom for all, not just for Muslims.

As for your second part, Pakistani identity depends on swearing allegiance to the flag and being beholden to furthering Pakistan's interests as a nation. If a Caucasian Christian or a Han Buddhist migrated to Pakistan and accepted the above conditions, they would be just as Pakistani as anyone else. Any discrepancies in rights that exist are contrary to Jinnah's vision.

Is this not the liberal argument against the very creation of Pakistan? Isn't this what Dr. Najma Heptullah often says in her lectures. I think you may have found another soul-mate in Dr. Heptullah

I haven't heard of her, but I explained my position above wrt Maulana Azad v/s Jinnah.

(BTW, I admire her a lot)

If you admire (and presumably agree with) someone who questions the need for Pakistan's creation, then your loyalty as a Pakistani becomes compromised. By my definition above of Pakistaniat, you would not qualify, regardless of whatever passport you hold.

 

[Imam Bukhari]

But, without partition, they would still be subject to a Hindu-dominated central government..

But you see, this is precisely what the Sindhis, Baloch, Muhajirs and Pashtuns are saying about the Punjabi-dominated Army & Punjabi-dominated Government.

Yes, it is true that the Sindhis have their cultural space in Sindh, the Baloch have their cultural space in Balochistan, the Pashtuns have their cultural space in Pashtunkhwa and the Muhajirs have their cultural space in Jinnahpur. No doubt in this whatsoever.

But they are still subject to a Punjabi-dominated Central Government and a Punjabi-dominated Army during Martial-Law/Military rule, are they not?

How could they not be dominated? Punjabis are 60% of the population. They are the ones with the "badi, badi Moochain" and the "badi, badi Pagaris". The rest of Pakistan is just serfs, naukars, and cannon-fodder, is it not?

So the stage has been set for the creation of new "separate homelands" for the Sindhis, Baloch, Pashtuns, Muhajirs etc- so that they can truly be free of this Punjabi-domination at the central level.

Once this separation takes place, we can then examine the conditions of the minority Seraikis, Bahawalpuris etcetera inside Punjab itself.....

Please do some research on the massive resentment against this -Domination. In fact, Amrullah Saleh is still leading the Jaloos against Punjabis in Kabul.

 

[LaBong]

But, without partition, they would still be subject to a Hindu-dominated central government.

They could be, but the point is they weren't afraid/concerned of that scenario back in 40s.

Two points.

First the acronyms referred to regions, not ethnicities. Even today, those provinces constitute Pakistan, but it is wrong to equate that with ethnicity.

What is land without the people, two are so intertwined that is is not possible to separate them.

Secondly, as much as it may have formed some people's vision of Pakistan at that time to differentiate it from the rest of British India, I disagree that it has any relevance today other than as a quaint acronym. It's all about looking forward, not back.

Question is how much are you looking forward, that's the raison d'etre of this thread.

Precisely my point. It was about freedom of religion (within those regions), not ethnicity per se.

It was both ethnicity and freedom of religion, Pakistan was never meant for South Indian Muslims.

You won't find too many people in Pakistan denying that we used to be Hindus in the past. Times change; it's over.



Again, I am not interested in the past or might-have-beens.

It is what it is.
We move on.

It is not about you being Hindus in past but it's about you being Punjabi/Pushtun/Baloch/Sindhi in present and past who have nothing to do with those pesky Indians lurking around Ganjes, let's not even mention those who are in south of Bindha. Look around and see what's going on the forum, or just read posts couple of pages back.

As if we havn't seen how Indians look like in real life. Try fooling someone else, we all know how an average Indian looks like.

Are Mohajirs also average Pakistani or only Punjabis/Pushtuns qualify?

Well who am I to **** in when you are so hell bent on to prove OP's hypothesis.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

In becharoon k uppor zara hola hath rakhoo

I was reading the comment of one Indian on *** about why PDF attract more Indians members and he said its because Indians have much more to show us that's why they come to us and i was like what the hell. They pretend as if incredible India is the world best country to live where all is well while Pakistan is a third world country and some really backward place to live where peoples still live in caves. Such mentality is very prevalent among Indians

Raja Pakistani, as that Indian Paan Singh admitted that "mostly indians came here or visit pak forums to troll and to insult pakistanis." That is the truth. I don't know why on this forum, we have to deal with such insults from indians especially when it is a Pakistani forum operated by Pakistani moderators. Have you noticed that for the last few months, the numbers of active Pakistani members are decreasing day by day and the numbers of active Indian members r increasing?

If there is an argument going on, it is always 2-3 Pakistanis versus 15-20 Indians in every thread. You must have seen in this thread yesterday that it was me and Icewolf only from our side versus 15-20 Indians arguing with us. It is not that I con't continue arguing with them , but the problem is it is impossible to argue with 15-20 ppl at the same time. Moderators should limit the number of Indians taking part in argument, so it doesn't get overwhelming. And I know it is not possible.

In real life, no Indian ever had a courage to say anything to me on face. I completely ignore them in real life. For me it is really annoying and irritating, that the same people whom I ignore in real life, and don't like sitting next to, come here and insult us again and again. In a long run, it is not healthy for PDF, that it is attracting Indian members and repelling Pakistani members.

Now you already read that post of kumarkumar, that girlz in Pakistan r shot for wearing jeans? AND I WAS LIKE HUH? what r u talking about? Girlz in Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi etc wear jeans and I don't remember any girl being shot for that. Haan "chair khani" is a different story. I don't know where do these Indians dig such posts, just to make themselves feel good by comparing themselves with Pakistan.

Believe me if u have ever worked with Indians in real life in USA (I am not sure about U.K.), especially where I live, you will get that instant "feel good" feeling. The first thought that comes to mind.. were these the people who were associated with us, 60 years ago? Thanks God, we r not part of them anymore.

 

[LaBong]

Believe me if u have ever seen Indians in real life in USA (I am not sure about U.K.), especially where I live, you will get that instant "feel good" feeling. The first thought that comes to mind.. were these the people who were associated with us, 60 years? Thanks God, we r not part of them anymore.

Do you get the same feeling when you look at Mohajirs?

 

[bronxbull]

Raja Pakistani, as that Indian Paan Singh admitted that "mostly indians came here or visit pak forums to troll and to insult pakistanis." That is the truth. I don't know why on this forum, we have to deal with such insults from indians especially when it is a Pakistani forum operated by Pakistani moderators. Have you noticed that for the last few months, the numbers of active Pakistani members are decreasing day by day and the numbers of active Indian members r increasing?

If there is an argument going on, it is always 2-3 Pakistanis versus 15-20 Indians in every thread. You must have seen in this thread yesterday that it was me and Icewolf only from our side versus 15-20 Indians arguing with us. It is not that I con't continue arguing with them , but the problem is it is impossible to argue with 15-20 ppl at the same time. Moderators should limit the number of Indians taking part in argument, so it doesn't get overwhelming. And I know it is not possible.

In real life, no Indian ever had a courage to say anything to me on face. I completely ignore them in real life. For me it is really annoying and irritating, that the same people whom I ignore in real life, and don't like sitting next to, come here and insult us again and again. In a long run, it is not healthy for PDF, that it is attracting Indian members and repelling Pakistani members.

Now you already read that post of kumarkumar, that girlz in Pakistan r shot for wearing jeans? AND I WAS LIKE HUH? what r u talking about? Girlz in Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi etc wear jeans and I don't remember any girl being shot for that. Haan "chair khani" is a different story. I don't know where do these Indians dig such posts, just to make themselves feel good by comparing themselves with Pakistan.

Believe me if u have ever worked with Indians in real life in USA (I am not sure about U.K.), especially where I live, you will get that instant "feel good" feeling. The first thought that comes to mind.. were these the people who were associated with us, 60 years ago? Thanks God, we r not part of them anymore.

Itne Bak Bak karne se pehle, photo toh daalein behnji.

Humre pass hain lagan aur usko milta darsan jiske mann mein hain lagan.

 

[Developereo]

our

But you see, this is precisely what the Sindhis, Baloch, Muhajirs and Pashtuns are saying about the Punjabi-dominated Army & Punjabi-dominated Government.

Yes, it is true that the Sindhis have their cultural space in Sindh, the Baloch have their cultural space in Balochistan, the Pashtuns have their cultural space in Pashtunkhwa and the Muhajirs have their cultural space in Jinnahpur. No doubt in this whatsoever.

But they are still subject to a Punjabi-dominated Central Government and a Punjabi-dominated Army during Martial-Law/Military rule, are they not?

How could they not be dominated? Punjabis are 60% of the population. They are the ones with the "badi, badi Moochain" and the "badi, badi Pagaris". The rest of Pakistan is just serfs, naukars, and cannon-fodder, is it not?

So the stage has been set for the creation of new "separate homelands" for the Sindhis, Baloch, Pashtuns, Muhajirs etc- so that they can truly be free of this Punjabi-domination at the central level.

Once this separation takes place, we can then examine the conditions of the minority Seraikis, Bahawalpuris etcetera inside Punjab itself.....

Please do some research on the massive resentment against this -Domination. In fact, Amrullah Saleh is still leading the Jaloos against Punjabis in Kabul.

Given enough rope, I knew you would expound on your core intentions, which I knew from your OP but which you have been skirting around all this time.

So, now we come to the heart of the matter: the breakup of Pakistan along ethnic lines due to the alleged Punjabi hegemony.

It's a tired old tactic with many anti-Pakistanis and also with some ethnicity-obsessed Pakistanis. It ignores the fact that one of the two dominant political parties, which has held democratically elected office several times, is a Sindhi, Shia party. Also the fact that the Pak military is a multi-ethnic force -- setting aside for the moment the huge insult to all the other ethnicities in the Pak army to ignore their contribution to Pakistan's defence.

The fact is that ethnic divisions in Pakistan are nowhere near as serious as you would like to believe or promote. There is always grumbling, in all countries, about various subgroups claiming a larger than fair share of the pie, but any legitimate issues get worked out over time. The same thing is true of Pakistan.

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Do you get the same feeling when you look at Mohajirs?

I am not talking to you... I am talking with Raja Pakistani. And "mohajirs" r Pakistani first. It am talking about INDIANS.

 

[Paan Singh]

Raja Pakistani, as that Indian Paan Singh admitted that "mostly indians came here or visit pak forums to troll and to insult pakistanis." That is the truth. I don't know why on this forum, we have to deal with such insults from indians especially when it is a Pakistani forum operated by Pakistani moderators. Have you noticed that for the last few months, the numbers of active Pakistani members are decreasing day by day and the numbers of active Indian members r increasing?

If there is an argument going on, it is always 2-3 Pakistanis versus 15-20 Indians in every thread. You must have seen in this thread yesterday that it was me and Icewolf only from our side versus 15-20 Indians arguing with us. It is not that I con't continue arguing with them , but the problem is it is impossible to argue with 15-20 ppl at the same time. Moderators should limit the number of Indians taking part in argument, so it doesn't get overwhelming. And I know it is not possible.

In real life, no Indian ever had a courage to say anything to me on face. I completely ignore them in real life. For me it is really annoying and irritating, that the same people whom I ignore in real life, and don't like sitting next to, come here and insult us again and again. In a long run, it is not healthy for PDF, that it is attracting Indian members and repelling Pakistani members.

Now you already read that post of kumarkumar, that girlz in Pakistan r shot for wearing jeans? AND I WAS LIKE HUH? what r u talking about? Girlz in Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi etc wear jeans and I don't remember any girl being shot for that. Haan "chair khani" is a different story. I don't know where do these Indians dig such posts, just to make themselves feel good by comparing themselves with Pakistan.

Believe me if u have ever worked with Indians in real life in USA (I am not sure about U.K.), especially where I live, you will get that instant "feel good" feeling. The first thought that comes to mind.. were these the people who were associated with us, 60 years ago? Thanks God, we r not part of them anymore.

oh come on jinni..tum to serious ho gayi

I am not talking to you... I am talking with Raja Pakistani. And "mohajirs" r Pakistani first. It am talking about INDIANS.

when u keep bringing north indians and punjaib and this is black n white n this is ugly n beautiful
then wat u expect frm us?? laddu ??

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Itne Bak Bak karne se pehle, photo toh daalein behnji.

Humre pass hain lagan aur usko milta darsan jiske mann mein hain lagan.

I have promised with one of the moderators that I will try to control my temper from now on... watna aisi aisi khubsurat photo dalti - Bengal sai lai kai Karnataka tak! kai Bhagwan yaad aa jata!

And you joined this forum (As I can see u r a newbie), just to share your bengali pictures with us. Indians Indians!! Gimme a break!

 

[LaBong]

I am not talking to you... I am talking with Raja Pakistani. And "mohajirs" r Pakistani first. It am talking about INDIANS.

If you want a private moment with Raja Pakistani, then you two are wasting your time in public forum. Go get a room.

I know mohajir are pakistanis but what I'm asking is that, since you get this "feel good" feeling by looking at Indians, do you have that same feeling when you look at Mohajirs who are north Indians by ethnicity. I hope it's not too complicated for you to grasp.

 

[Paan Singh]

I have promised with one of the moderators that I will try to control my temper from now on... watna aisi aisi khubsurat photo dalti - Bengal sai lai kai Karnataka tak! kai Bhagwan yaad aa jata!

And you joined this forum (As I can see u r a newbie), just to share your bengali pictures with us. Indians Indians!! Gimme a break!

maine to pehle hi tumhari tareef ki thee

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

I have promised with one of the moderators that I will try to control my temper from now on... watna aisi aisi khubsurat photo dalti - Bengal sai lai kai Karnataka tak! kai Bhagwan yaad aa jata!

And you joined this forum (As I can see u r a newbie), just to share your bengali pictures with us. Indians Indians!! Gimme a break!

Still no photo?

 

[jinxeD_girl]

Now u can see Raja Pakistani, I was talking to you and the bulk replies I am getting is from Indians. Can you see how many Indians replied to my post in under a minute? and watch it will continue.. more n more will join in.

Still no photo?

You guyz must be really stupid asking someone to post their pics on public forum to prove something to indians.

If you want a private moment with Raja Pakistani, then you two are wasting your time in public forum. Go get a room.

I know mohajir are pakistanis but what I'm asking is that, since you get this "feel good" feeling by looking at Indians, do you have that same feeling when you look at Mohajirs who are north Indians by ethnicity. I hope it's not too complicated for you to grasp.

where did I say "looking" at Indians, I said "Believe me if u have ever worked with Indians". Scroll up n see! How delusional some ppl can get.

 

[pk_baloch]

I have promised with one of the moderators that I will try to control my temper from now on... watna aisi aisi khubsurat photo dalti - Bengal sai lai kai Karnataka tak! kai Bhagwan yaad aa jata!

And you joined this forum (As I can see u r a newbie), just to share your bengali pictures with us. Indians Indians!! Gimme a break!

jinxed u r sweeeeet really