Do or die....open questions to the IAF pilot

[Harisudan]

@Harisudan, Sir, else where on this forum, you claimed to be a former IAF pilot, who served with No 28 Squadron, flying MiG-29 Fulcrums out of Jamnagar. I have no dispute with that, however your bold claims towards the PAF did get my attention thus a reply was necessary. I must point out that like most members on the forum, i just sit on the computer but i have some contacts in the PAF. So when i conveyed your remarks to my contact, initially he wasn't interested in the kids fight with claims and counter claims as his profession is above and beyond this chest thumping, however, upon some persuasion, he decided to make some brief comments, hence, firstly let me quote your post. (Edited)


Firstly, kindly enlighten us as what ability does the IAF possesses that you could actually see the Falcons taking off from within your own border ????... did you have satellites permanently rotating over PAF bases beaming live pictures to you or some hidden cameras perched around PAF airfields, even the AWACS pick up the adversary once it's airborne and then observes it's intentions before ordering a hot scramble or directing it's own fighters..!!! By disclosing that every time PAF Falcons took to the skies, your squadron would start patrolling in air.....you are indirectly admitting the threat PAF had installed in the minds of IAF. You were airborne regardless of the fact, whether PAF aircraft were on a training sortie, on exercise or merely on a ferry flight...the IAF felt compelled to start patrolling. !!
The bold claim of PAF not lasting more than a few days is very unprofessional like, for even the US didn't say that about Iraqi AF before the start of Dessert Storm. From it's past history and records, what does the IAF has to show for itself, the only time the IAF eventually managed to perform was in Kargil, that too after much help and input from certain countries and facing no aerial opposition and even then, resorting to high altitude bombings of designated areas. Albeit, PAF had no BVR capability during the Kargil conflict and IAF even awarded one of it's pilot for gaining a lock on a PAF aircraft from within it's own air space but you will seldom hear PAF boasting on what happened when a flight of Fulcrums jinxed and quickly exited the scene once they were made aware of Falcons presence by the Indian ground controller otherwise the IAF pilots were completely unaware of the Falcons trailing them.
Last time when some serious hostilities flared up is more commonly known as the 2002 stand off, which lasted for almost a year. I just happened to be visiting Pakistan in May June of that year, it was when an IAF Searcher-II UAV (of israeli origin) was shot down in the middle of night by the PAF. As a person on family holiday, i didn't think much of it but in due course it became obvious how serious was the situation during that summer. If you were indeed in the IAF then you would know and understand as to why PAF launched interceptors to shoot down the UAV, rather than taking it out with ground based systems. Many would be unaware of this but let me ask you, what transpired on the night of 28/29 June when the IAF was fully poised to launch attacks on Pakistan, if you don't believe me ask your superiors, that night, former PAF Air Chief and C in C, after issuing battle orders to the PAF, spent all night in the operation center to witness the battle.
What made the IAF stand down after all the preparations, did it smell fear, perhaps it was too shocked to find out that Falcons were already patrolling the secret corridors and IAF aircraft will be intercepted before they even cross the border or maybe it became aware of the order, which basically was do or die.

@Oscar @Horus @Hyperion @fatman17 @Icarus @Rashid Mahmood

Wind Jammer, I appreciate the way you put up this and yeah, as you've claimed I have points justify them, yet I don't know how far it will make sense here, or whether I can disclose certain details or not, though I'm not active personnel anymore, but anyways it is better to rebute atleast some of your claims if I can..So let me try..
As I've said, the point about PAF not matching IAF and that it won't Last for more than four days in an all out war, yes I stand by that claim, not just because of jingoism or something but that the equipment build up and planning has changed leaps and bounds ever since the Kargil mishap.. Back then We din have LR trackers, we din have dedicated Military signal from our satellites, we din have precision striking options, not just precision but quick reaction, we didn't had all these options back then..More so, we din had the net centric warfare method, we din involve the three forces concurrently or the communication gap was there among the triforces..
But today's IAF in concurrence is a real force and the Air assets are very well capable of taking down anything that is put in the air by PAF.. I'm not bringing in Cruise missiles or ground forces to question.. I'm just comparing apple to apple viz - a - viz IAF and PAF and the aircrafts and weapons..
The troop movements or column movements or movements of aircrafts or for that matter any high value strategic asset, 500 kms anywhere near our border was tracked accurately, even longer range movements were tracked but not with such high accuracy.. The assets in question here can't be discussed since I'm bound to disclose only things which are allowed to be disclosed..
Yes, as I told the sheer superiority in terms of quality and quantity is very much fit enough to neutralise air based threat in few days, where as the Air defence sqns are far more advanced and capable enough to take care of strike formations...
As for your query regarding the standing down of an attack, there may or may not be an attack planned against PAF and due to various reasons it might have got cancelled..??
Who knows, the reason could have also been not to wipe off a country once a part our own country from the faces of this planet..??As graduated from our academies we had been prepared to die for our country anytime, anywhere and your statement about getting afraid of your AF makes me laugh inside, through organs other than my mouth..
So pls keep it aside and come for a rational debate, I'll be more than sincere to answer with reasons and details I'm ok to disclose with..

 

[PlanetWarrior]

So you too are IAF... Good to know that.

Would you like to comment something on your fellow brothers post, quoted up there by the thread-maker.

Thanks

I am not IAF. I have never sat in the cockpit of any warplane of current day worth. My late brother was an IAF officer with numerous hours of flight experience. He usually scoffed at anybody who claimed that the PAF would never stand up to the IAF labeling them "video game pilots". As an officer of the IAF when asked about India's capability against Pakistan in a full out air fight he would respond "never underestimate the Pakistanis. They have faced bigger challenges than India ever faced and overcame those challenges. That shows their determination to control their skies.' That is all which I came to know about air-speak

 

[Harisudan]

I have read some posts of @Harisudan Looks more like fanboy stuff than a professional with a military background. PAF or IAF they often comment with objectivity instead of sensationalism. I think this factor lacks in his posts. I have also read posts of IAF veterans who participated in 65 or 71 wars. They appreciated their foes and give them credit when it was due.

Anyways may be he is an exception in IAF officers.

Areesh, you are free to have your own perceptions about me..What else I can expect here??respect??Not in my wildest of dreams??
We always treat our adversaries equal and even I've told the quality of PAF pilots are equally good as our own in certain thread which I don remember..Anyways, I'm out off here..Thanks BTW..

 

[Windjammer]

As for your query regarding the standing down of an attack, there may or may not be an attack planned against PAF and due to various reasons it might have got cancelled..??
Who knows, the reason could have also been not to wipe off a country once a part our own country from the faces of this planet..??As graduated from our academies we had been prepared to die for our country anytime, anywhere and your statement about getting afraid of your AF makes me laugh inside, through organs other than my mouth..
So pls keep it aside and come for a rational debate, I'll be more than sincere to answer with reasons and details I'm ok to disclose with..

Disregarding all else, the highlighted part speaks volumes about your knowledge and professionalism. India, which mobilised some 700 000 troops, brought them to the border, then remained paralyzed for a soul destroying 10 months loosing some 950 soldiers through accidents etc. suddenly was worried about a country which it hasn't accepted from heart since it's creation. Oh well, any port in a storm.


PAF Falcon pilots including my contact, waiting for some action during the 2002 stand off.

 

[SrNair]

@Windjammer Leme clearify 1 thing Falcons are one of the best and most effective Pak ever acquired
I have seen your past posts their are mostly regarding air boys , In Skies Yes machines does matter but in the end it comes up to the men whos flying it and what he can do wit that when a civi looks at a weapon system he looks differently then air man , or soldier because a real war is not just some game where, when you have most soldiers you can throw them and you will win ,
Indian do have the problem of underestimating every one and overestimating themselves thats a very deadly thing to do Bcz Paf sole purpose was to defend its border from any invading army , and history has shown that they are doing it pretty good .Modern War is more about which Force is synced and easy logistic supply . can change its location at fast pace nd keep surprising enemy , in end they Will win doesnt matter how big or small they are.
1 advice 99% of people here in pdf never ever saw even the the inside of cockpit not been 10 ft away to real fighter jet tell me how can they know what these babies can do so leave the man who are doing these jobs to them cz we know better

We dont underestimate our enemies.Only mistake we did was in 1962 .Till then we didnt that folly not anymore .Otherwise result of following wars would be way different.

 

[kaku1]

Disregarding all else, the highlighted part speaks volumes about your knowledge and professionalism. India, which mobilised some 700 000 troops, brought them to the border, then remained paralyzed for a soul destroying 10 months loosing some 950 soldiers through accidents etc. suddenly was worried about a country which it hasn't accepted from heart since it's creation. Oh well, any port in a storm.

View attachment 99890
PAF Falcon pilots including my contact, waiting for some action during the 2002 stand off.

Bro, this shows failure of Sundarji Doctrine not of army.

 

[acetophenol]

I have read some posts of @Harisudan Looks more like fanboy stuff than a professional with a military background. PAF or IAF they often comment with objectivity instead of sensationalism. I think this factor lacks in his posts. I have also read posts of IAF veterans who participated in 65 or 71 wars. They appreciated their foes and give them credit when it was due.

Anyways may be he is an exception in IAF officers.

I generally always disagree with your posts, but one this one I am with you. IAF or PAF, men in uniform are always sensible and respectful to each other, something fanboys usually lacks.

 

[raja hindustani]

Unlike Pakistan Indian army can not do anything they like. GOI calls the shots and if the Indian government chickened out at the last minute, then we can't blame it on the army. GOI was probably afraid that the war might escalate to a full scale nuclear war, and they probably thought invasion of Pakistan was not worth the risk.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

@Windjammer

You seem to overlook some extremely important issues in your fundamental question being posed in this thread, namely why didn't India attack Pakistan after the Mumbai terrorists attack despite India claiming to have evidence that Pakistan was responsible and despite India's build up of forces on the borders (correct me if I am wrong).

The main dilemma posed by India since the 1980s has always been ...what do we do after an attack on Pakistan ? Thankfully, India is controlled more by its brains than its brauns. I suspect that this dilemma shall confront India for the remainder of Pakistan's existence. It is a simple matter to move in tons of troops and to engage in a war with a neighbor who has a worthy military to confront. Even assuming that the Indian armed forces are capable of smashing the forward defenses of Pakistan, what does India do thereafter? Face stiff demands from the world to end the war or face sanctions thus destroying the Indian economy. No insult intended, but reality dictates that the Pakistani economy is hardly worth considering in this day and age so Pakistan has little if nothing to lose on that issue.So India will remain the core loser there.

Capture Pakistani territory and engage in a long drawn out war with Pakistan ? Now only a crazy Indian would want to rule even a square mile of Pakistani territory. Forget the resistance against India. When that dies out, India will face internal fighting in Pakistan which would drive any sane governance insane. Then the Muslim world will screech.."watch how the evil Hindu invaders are allowing our Muslim brothers and sisters to be slaughtered under their rule !"

In a nutshell, why invade a country which is on self destruction mode ? Many Hindutvas here spit on Congress and its leadership for the apparently "weak stance" taken against Pakistan in its foreign policy. I sincerely hope that they get the message as equally as you will hopefully get it

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

@Windjammer it's useless to get into a debate with the other side, you know there behaviour.

I was then part of the stand off and my cm's in the PAF have shared alot among each other.
Unfortunately it can't be shared.

 

[Armstrong]

I am not IAF. I have never sat in the cockpit of any warplane of current day worth. My late brother was an IAF officer with numerous hours of flight experience. He usually scoffed at anybody who claimed that the PAF would never stand up to the IAF labeling them "video game pilots". As an officer of the IAF when asked about India's capability against Pakistan in a full out air fight he would respond "never underestimate the Pakistanis. They have faced bigger challenges than India ever faced and overcame those challenges. That shows their determination to control their skies.' That is all which I came to know about air-speak

I'm sorry to hear that - May his hereafter be ever better !

 

[Donatello]

@Windjammer

You seem to overlook some extremely important issues in your fundamental question being posed in this thread, namely why didn't India attack Pakistan after the Mumbai terrorists attack despite India claiming to have evidence that Pakistan was responsible and despite India's build up of forces on the borders (correct me if I am wrong).

The main dilemma posed by India since the 1980s has always been ...what do we do after an attack on Pakistan ? Thankfully, India is controlled more by its brains than its brauns. I suspect that this dilemma shall confront India for the remainder of Pakistan's existence. It is a simple matter to move in tons of troops and to engage in a war with a neighbor who has a worthy military to confront. Even assuming that the Indian armed forces are capable of smashing the forward defenses of Pakistan, what does India do thereafter? Face stiff demands from the world to end the war or face sanctions thus destroying the Indian economy. Not insult intended, but reality dictates that the Pakistani economy is hardly worth considering in this day and age so Pakistan has little if nothing to lose on that issue.So India will remain the core loser there.

Capture Pakistani territory and engage in a long drawn out war with Pakistan ? Now only a crazy Indian would want to rule even a square mile of Pakistani territory. Forget the resistance against India. When that dies out, India will face internal fighting in Pakistan which would drive any sane governance insane. Then the Muslim world will screech.."watch how the evil Hindu invaders are allowing our Muslim brothers and sisters to be slaughtered under their rule !"

In a nutshell, why invade a country which is on self destruction mode ? Many Hindutvas here spit on Congress and its leadership for the apparently "weak stance" taken against Pakistan in its foreign policy. I sincerely hope that they get the message as equally as you will hopefully get it

Nations go through hard times to get to good times. NOTHING that is different to what India faced or still faces. If you didn't., go ask your parents how was 1980s/1990s like in India? Thousands dying all over, is that self destruct?

According to India Pakistan would self destruct since 1947........67 years on, still waiting for that.

And about economy? How much more bigger economy do you have considering you are the 2nd most populous country in the world and have been growing for 20 years? Still the same old piss poor third world. I think you are assuming too many things that may not be true.

And about war, you are right. You cannot fight a war without having serious consequences for yourself as well. Tough choice, considering how small we are and how big you are. Your country men and your media as a whole still has to compare themselves with Pakistan. What would Pakistan do to nations that are 8 times smaller that Pakistan in resources?True nations either compare themselves to those of their own size or those bigger than them. I'd even give Israel 10/10 for that. India, maybe 1/10.

Unlike Pakistan Indian army can not do anything they like. GOI calls the shots and if the Indian government chickened out at the last minute, then we can't blame it on the army. GOI was probably afraid that the war might escalate to a full scale nuclear war, and they probably thought invasion of Pakistan was not worth the risk.

Then Indian Army and it's fake internet trolls, lose the right to brag about anything. This vs that BS.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Nations go through hard times to get to good times. NOTHING that is different to what India faced or still faces. If you didn't., go ask your parents how was 1980s/1990s like in India? Thousands dying all over, is that self destruct?

According to India Pakistan would self destruct since 1947........67 years on, still waiting for that.

And about economy? How much more bigger economy do you have considering you are the 2nd most populous country in the world and have been growing for 20 years? Still the same old piss poor third world. I think you are assuming too many things that may not be true.

And about war, you are right. You cannot fight a war without having serious consequences for yourself as well. Tough choice, considering how small we are and how big you are. Your country men and your media as a whole still has to compare themselves with Pakistan. What would Pakistan do to nations that are 8 times smaller that Pakistan in resources?True nations either compare themselves to those of their own size or those bigger than them. I'd even give Israel 10/10 for that. India, maybe 1/10.



Then Indian Army and it's fake internet trolls, lose the right to brag about anything. This vs that BS.

Let's not debate economy Don. My points were simply hypothetical. Neither was I mocking Pakistan's current economic crisis. It was simply a point in reality. India compares the military might of Pakistan as a matter of necessity and not of choice. In all fairness to Pakistan, the same may likewise apply in certain instances. After all tough neighbors make tough borders so regard that as a compliment and not an insult

 

[Chanakyaa]

Nations go through hard times to get to good times. NOTHING that is different to what India faced or still faces.

When Did India Faced Drones , Got 50% Land Divided, Have 90000 Prisoners Captured....Have Nation Wide Azadi Marches...Military Establishment Attacks on a Daily Basis....and yet lead by morons like Nawaz and Zardari ?
Dont Hide Your Defeats and Failures.

The Biggest Achievement of Pakistan since 1947 : The Bomb Itself. And How was it Made ? I dont need to tell you. Pakistani's know better.

Did u realize Our Bomb is NOT a Bomb , but a source of Huge Technology that has spread its tentacles in the Arena of Thorium Research , FBRs and Nuclear Propulsion ?

Last Time when 6th Fleet , with Nuclear Powered USS Enterprize marched towards us, We dared to face the Ultimate, still managed to Divide You into TWO !

If you didn't., go ask your parents how was 1980s/1990s like in India? Thousands dying all over, is that self destruct?
According to India Pakistan would self destruct since 1947........67 years on, still waiting for that.

I dont feel in this century , Self Destruction is a Better word than "Failure of State Machinery" or "Country Wide Chaos" or "Country Wide Terrorists Attacks Daily"[/quote]

And about economy? How much more bigger economy do you have considering you are the 2nd most populous country in the world and have been growing for 20 years? Still the same old piss poor third world. I think you are assuming too many things that may not be true.

Thank God Bangladesh ( Time ) and Japan ( Destruction ) dont share your view !

And about war, you are right. You cannot fight a war without having serious consequences for yourself as well. Tough choice, considering how small we are and how big you are.

Hillarius.
Considering we have ALREADY Faced 4 Wars .. even Captured Siachin. Seems INDIA is NOT Really worrying of CONSEQUENCES when it comes to National Integrity.

Your country men and your media as a whole still has to compare themselves with Pakistan. What would Pakistan do to nations that are 8 times smaller that Pakistan in resources?

Many Western Nations smaller than Pakistan are Batter. The Problem is NOT that you are considering WRONG Eamples, but the fact that in doing so, you are still trying to cover your tracks rather go for improvement.

True nations either compare themselves to those of their own size or those bigger than them.
I'd even give Israel 10/10 for that. India, maybe 1/10.

We never Compared ourselves with Pakistan. Else why do we need Moon... Mars Mission ... ICBMs , SLBMs.. , Nuclear Subs .. Super Computers ... Research Institues.. and Air Craft Carriers. ? WE DO COMPETE WITH CHINA. PAKISTAN IS NOT IN PICTURE AT ALL.

On Contrary, Firing Hatf / Shaheeen Missiles out of Frustration, in response to a "Inter Planetary Mission" Screams.. and tells you who is COMPARING with WHOM ( and yet NOT Learning ) !

Then Indian Army and it's fake internet trolls, lose the right to brag about anything. This vs that BS.

Frustration.

 

[Dazzler]

Wind Jammer, I appreciate the way you put up this and yeah, as you've claimed I have points justify them, yet I don't know how far it will make sense here, or whether I can disclose certain details or not, though I'm not active personnel anymore, but anyways it is better to rebute atleast some of your claims if I can..So let me try..
As I've said, the point about PAF not matching IAF and that it won't Last for more than four days in an all out war, yes I stand by that claim, not just because of jingoism or something but that the equipment build up and planning has changed leaps and bounds ever since the Kargil mishap.. Back then We din have LR trackers, we din have dedicated Military signal from our satellites, we din have precision striking options, not just precision but quick reaction, we didn't had all these options back then..More so, we din had the net centric warfare method, we din involve the three forces concurrently or the communication gap was there among the triforces..
But today's IAF in concurrence is a real force and the Air assets are very well capable of taking down anything that is put in the air by PAF.. I'm not bringing in Cruise missiles or ground forces to question.. I'm just comparing apple to apple viz - a - viz IAF and PAF and the aircrafts and weapons..
The troop movements or column movements or movements of aircrafts or for that matter any high value strategic asset, 500 kms anywhere near our border was tracked accurately, even longer range movements were tracked but not with such high accuracy.. The assets in question here can't be discussed since I'm bound to disclose only things which are allowed to be disclosed..
Yes, as I told the sheer superiority in terms of quality and quantity is very much fit enough to neutralise air based threat in few days, where as the Air defence sqns are far more advanced and capable enough to take care of strike formations...
As for your query regarding the standing down of an attack, there may or may not be an attack planned against PAF and due to various reasons it might have got cancelled..??
Who knows, the reason could have also been not to wipe off a country once a part our own country from the faces of this planet..??As graduated from our academies we had been prepared to die for our country anytime, anywhere and your statement about getting afraid of your AF makes me laugh inside, through organs other than my mouth..
So pls keep it aside and come for a rational debate, I'll be more than sincere to answer with reasons and details I'm ok to disclose with..

well well, firstly, if you ever served in IAF, an attitude like the one you reflect in your posts, of undermining the strengths and weaknesses of your enemy, would have kicked you out of service straight up.