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Do not send girls to schools, colleges: Hefajat-e-Islam chief Shafi

Maybe...but I still wouldn't want to live in Gaddafi's Libya. Although I agree it's worse now. But that doesn't mean Gaddafi must get a free pass.

Even Gaddafi was sometimes over-ruled by decisions taken in People's Congresses. He was not some all-powerful dictator.

Lol.. boss you are back to Libya again. What is you connection with Libya. Please tell honestly

I am not Libyan or African.

I just admire the Libyan society and its ideology and political system between 1969 and 2011.
 
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Even Gaddafi was sometimes over-ruled by decisions taken in People's Congresses. He was not some all-powerful dictator.
Still a dictator though. And no dictator is all powerful. All of them had to make concessions from time to time.
 
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I think it is a smart idea for women to be educated. Having dual incomes can bring the standard of living in a home from "getting by" to "living a life of ease".

Oh I'm all in favour of everyone getting educated as much as possible :). I'm just talking free speech higher stuff here.

The US 1st Amendment is a marvel for human civilisation and evolution. It came into being way ahead of its time and provides guidance to free speech advocacy around the globe. Even Western Europe is yet to catch up to it.

The US 2nd Amendment however... :lol:

The 2nd amendment is just as important as the 1st.

You have to remember how and why such rights were given to the citizenry of the US. The basic litmus test is...did the right pre-exist the formation of government? If so the govt has no right to take it away. The US is pretty much the only one that used the concept of precedent to extend like this....in putting the pre-existing inalienable right of the individual above that of the state/government.

Remember the 2nd amendment is all about the citizen able to protect his safety (with others as a militia) in the end from a rogue tyrannical govt (and the US knew all about that before and during its war of independence for example...and arguably to an extent during its civil war).

Europe definitely could have used a form of the 2nd amendment, having seen its fair share of rogue tyrannical govts. One only need to compare the action of the Jews in the baltic states (who were unprepared and unarmed thanks to no 2nd amendment there and active disarming of them previously by the Soviets....but knew what was going to happen having seen the early street reprisals) compared to the Jews in the warsaw Ghetto during their uprising....results wise on the tyranny (and its larger timeframe of existence). The math can be scaled to those who were armed, those who werent. Same goes for the holodomor era in the USSR. No reason for mass starvation and death and gulag marches if the citizenry were well armed (the counter-cost on the despotic govt becomes just too high). Its really a potent safeguard in the end.

In the modern day context, yearly gun homicides (including suicides) are about 30,000 cases....but whats less known is that anywhere between 300,000 to 2 million lives are saved by private gun ownership each year (according to CDC).

One of the biggest reason I've been rethinking this "I detest what you have to say, but I defend your right to say it", is the recent phenomenon that has occurred(where I live) ever since Trump. He says things...whether to please ppl to get votes or for whatever other reason...but what he says has far reaching effects...no matter how baseless and false his claims may be. Here is one of the recent examples of the hate/divide that has been happening bcuz of Trump.

Seen far far worse with ANTIFA thugs (when they are not getting violent, and just sticking to talking)....heck even the pro-abortion ppl who scream the worst kind of things at pro-life groups when they exercise their right to the 1st amendment. I'm not going to call for curtailing any of their rights to free speech....as much as I may want it at times.

Its despicable what can be said....but I don't draw a line because I know once you do it, it can be drawn eventually to get to me. This predated Trump ...actually even the formation of the US.

More recently under Obama admin, vast swathes of the American public were mocked relentlessly (for being conservative), told they were no good, that they were bigots, racists, sexists, homophobes in broad brush way by the very mainstream media that was supposed to be impartial and unbiased. Trump did not suddenly come out of somewhere....to understand Trump, one must first understand Obama. Yes the same Obama that gets to meet all smiling with Louis Farakhan and have that picture repressed for his campaign.

That is precisely why there is a 1st amendment in the end. So you get to hear from the people you pretend don't exist or wish didn't (large swathes of flyover America between the liberal coasts)....or label them instead of talk to them and get where they are coming from (no one is entirely unreasonable). They have votes in the end too you see....they will exercise them if they are not heard. No one gets to set the overton window, no one has the ultimate prescription for ideal society, especially without much debate (which necessitates repression of the "non-ideals"). The left have become pretty much everything they were once against in the US (when they were more the underdogs)....look no further than the ACLU for that.
 
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Oh I'm all in favour of everyone getting educated as much as possible :). I'm just talking free speech higher stuff here.



The 2nd amendment is just as important as the 1st.

You have to remember how and why such rights were given to the citizenry of the US. The basic litmus test is...did the right pre-exist the formation of government? If so the govt has no right to take it away. The US is pretty much the only one that used the concept of precedent to extend like this....in putting the pre-existing inalienable right of the individual above that of the state/government.

Remember the 2nd amendment is all about the citizen able to protect his safety (with others as a militia) in the end from a rogue tyrannical govt (and the US knew all about that before and during its war of independence for example...and arguably to an extent during its civil war).

Europe definitely could have used a form of the 2nd amendment, having seen its fair share of rogue tyrannical govts. One only need to compare the action of the Jews in the baltic states (who were unprepared and unarmed thanks to no 2nd amendment there and active disarming of them previously by the Soviets....but knew what was going to happen having seen the early street reprisals) compared to the Jews in the warsaw Ghetto during their uprising....results wise on the tyranny (and its larger timeframe of existence). The math can be scaled to those who were armed, those who werent. Same goes for the holodomor era in the USSR. No reason for mass starvation and death and gulag marches if the citizenry were well armed (the counter-cost on the despotic govt becomes just too high). Its really a potent safeguard in the end.

In the modern day context, yearly gun homicides (including suicides) are about 30,000 cases....but whats less known is that anywhere between 300,000 to 2 million lives are saved by private gun ownership each year (according to CDC).



Seen far far worse with ANTIFA thugs (when they are not getting violent, and just sticking to talking)....heck even the pro-abortion ppl who scream the worst kind of things at pro-life groups when they exercise their right to the 1st amendment. I'm not going to call for curtailing any of their rights to free speech....as much as I may want it at times.

Its despicable what can be said....but I don't draw a line because I know once you do it, it can be drawn eventually to get to me. This predated Trump ...actually even the formation of the US.
Yes that's the double edged sword that the line drawn can eventually trace back to u. My intention isn't to limit free speech only of those I do not agree with. Whether it be pro life or pro choice groups...or whatever end of the spectrum of any other issue...
...my intention is to limit the hate that spawns. I know it predates Trump...it probably can be traced back to a time when complex language was first invented.

The example of Trump was just to highlight the recent phenomenon...whether it's due to media/social media or some other factor but now more than ever u can see the impact of "harmless words" having a broader effect on society. Its not limited to Trump only...it happens around the world...has been happening and will continue to happen. Other examples include Elon Musk's tweet about privatizing Tesla and how that caused change in stock value.

When influential ppl say something it carries weight...but at the same time as per free speech rights they can get away with it.
...bcuz if somebody does something stupid "inspired" by that influential person...it's "that person's fault". I agree that it is almost entirely "that person's fault" but somewhere...somehow if u follow the chain of causality u will find that the responsibility also lies on that influential person...for saying the words that started it.

...but then again...its hard to quantify such a thing. I still believe in the "free speech" thing same as u...but that's been my dilemma as of late. I'm not sure if I was able to fully convey the conflicting thoughts I have on this matter.
 
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I'm not sure if I was able to fully convey the conflicting thoughts I have on this matter.

Trust me if you don't have conflicting thoughts, you are not human to begin with ;)

I have plenty too, even regarding my more stoic stances here. I just can't convey the exact stuff just like you (sometimes not to even myself all that well).

It's all so complicated in the end...this is the thing with debate...it will leave nagging questions for you (if it has been a proper fair transparent one), from the other side especially.

I often say a lot of this is better understood real time, face to face etc than an online forum (given we miss out on lot of forms of more nuanced communication here)....but really that is just a token placebo lot of the time too. It really depends.
 
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Trust me if you don't have conflicting thoughts, you are not human to begin with ;)

I have plenty too, even regarding my more stoic stances here. I just can't convey the exact stuff just like you (sometimes not to even myself all that well).

It's all so complicated in the end...this is the thing with debate...it will leave nagging questions for you (if it has been a proper fair transparent one), from the other side especially.

I often say a lot of this is better understood real time, face to face etc than an online forum (given we miss out on lot of forms of more nuanced communication here)....but really that is just a token placebo lot of the time too. It really depends.
It's too bad u live in Canada...if u were in Cali, I would've loved to discuss such topics in person.
 
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Why can't we have a country without Mullahs and socialists? Sounds like a dream country to me.
Because of the people.

Like it or not, ultimately, EVERYTHING rests on the people. Blaming an individual -- like a dictator -- is a temporary thing. If your country have one dictator -- benign or else -- after another, you can no longer blame anyone else but COLLECTIVELY yourselves. It becomes the nature of your people that you need a strongman to rule over you.
 
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Hah, you will probably be able to see the lunar eclipse tonight in cali...its badly overcast +snow here so I likely wont be able to :( ...I assume its the same case with you @VCheng ?

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/lunar/2019-january-21

But then again theres a proper winter here in Canada I quite enjoy activities wise.

I just dug out of a blizzard with two feet of snow and facing windchills in the -20s tonight. Seeing the lunar eclipse may be a tad difficult through all the blowing snow and frozen eyes. :D
 
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Hah, you will probably be able to see the lunar eclipse tonight in cali...its badly overcast +snow here so I likely wont be able to :( ...I assume its the same case with you @VCheng ?

https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/lunar/2019-january-21

But then again theres a proper winter here in Canada I quite enjoy activities wise.
Yeah I'll be sure to watch the "blood moon".

Stargazing is a hobby of mine...it just sucks to be living in LA. Too much light pollution...so usually I have to drive away to some more secluded areas to enjoy things like meteor showers.
 
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I understand that...I hold the same opinion regarding free speech...

But recently I've been thinking hard that maybe just maybe we should alter this line of thought just a little bit. Though he has the right to say that as per free speech but think of how many lives will now be affected by that. The reason why this guy was news worthy in the first place is bcuz he has a following. Those followers of his are going to probably act on these words.

One of the biggest reason I've been rethinking this "I detest what you have to say, but I defend your right to say it", is the recent phenomenon that has occurred(where I live) ever since Trump. He says things...whether to please ppl to get votes or for whatever other reason...but what he says has far reaching effects...no matter how baseless and false his claims may be. Here is one of the recent examples of the hate/divide that has been happening bcuz of Trump.
That's some white kid who probably comes from a rich family...with no manners disrespecting a veteran all the while thinking that he is some American patriot.

I understand that it's a slippery slope to limit free speech bcuz who gets to be the judge of what's good and what's bad...and other such complex matters.
I just think it's not healthy that influential ppl say things...which don't technically qualify as hate speech and yet has a similar effect on society.

Now there is more context for this incident:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/us-politics-2016-2020.374363/page-338#post-11117961
 
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