Dividing Punjab?

[qsaark]

He will wait till majority of people choose one side of the opinion and then he will sing along the majority whether they are right or wrong.

This is called 'democracy', rule of the people, by the people, for the people.

 

[SSGPA1]

This is called 'democracy', rule of the people, by the people, for the people.

so why are we fghting the Talibans? People in FATA may be okay with Taliban rule, let them rule.

There are boundaries and norms around democracy ... NS claims to be aleader and leader is suppose to guide like Musharraf did ... however our politicians ony say what people like to hear. These guys know better than a common man but they still lie.

 

[Khalids]

Qouted by SSGPA1:
so why are we fghting the Talibans? People in FATA may be okay with Taliban rule, let them rule

.

I am afraid, this is not a good way to argue. If FATA people are okay with Taliban, then they should show they are okay with Taliban. And the best available way to show your political desires is election. If Taliban come in power through this political process others must accept them. But unfortunately their power-base is not the democratic process but arms and terror. Democracy brings change through ballot not through bullet.

 

[Zob]

ok i am not a PUNJABI but why is the debate starting off from discussion about PUNJAB being divided first....?? let's start of by talking about SINDH...let the SINDH government in power set an example first....followed by PUNJAB and then balochistan & NWFP!

but like i said new PROVINCES are NOT the solution!!! the only solution is end FEUDALISM and currently stregthen the federation....our exsistence as a nation is at risk by dividing into new provinces we will just FAST TRACK the process...!!!!

 

[zubair723]

Its just another foreign agenda being pushed to further divide the NATION. Thanks to sold out MEDIA. And so much pathetic reasoning on all this. Even if you make 20 provinces out of it, the problem will aggravate instead of being solved. First streamline the structure & impelmentation procedures based on merits & equalities.

 

[ajpirzada]

so why are we fghting the Talibans? People in FATA may be okay with Taliban rule, let them rule.

There are boundaries and norms around democracy ... NS claims to be aleader and leader is suppose to guide like Musharraf did ... however our politicians ony say what people like to hear. These guys know better than a common man but they still lie.

wat made me reply to ur post was u givin musharraf as an example. he might be patriotic but was nothing close to a gud leader.

secondly ppl of fata are against the talibans. there are so many threads which quote statements comin from fata population.

qasak is rit in sayin that democracy is 'rule the ppl, by the people and for the people'.
unfortunately our leaders only do the first two. rule the ppl, by the ppl. 'for the ppl' (most important part) is missing.

 

[qsaark]

NS claims to be aleader and leader is suppose to guide like Musharraf did ...

This is news for me. Care to elaborate when and where he 'guided' his fellow countrymen (minus soldiers whom he commanded). Musharraf a leader? Who came into power through the backdoor by deposing the democratically elected government! Who ruled the country like a King, never listened to what the masses were saying.

 

[qsaark]

....the only solution is end FEUDALISM and currently stregthen the federation....

I agree with putting an end to feudalism, but strengthening the federation is what we have been doing for past 60 or so years. What is the result? If you go to a doctor and if the medicine he gave you does not work for a prolonged period of time, what you do? You change the doctor or change your medicine. And that is exactly what is needed to be done now. Time has come to change the medicine and to say goodbye to the federation. We have to strengthen the confederation, give autonomy to the provinces as per 1940 resolution and allow them to manage their own resources.

 

[Zob]

@qsaark sir

the problem is the doctor is good the medication is good we just don't take it properly....

we give out money to the BUGTTIS,MENGALS,CHAUDRYs,KHANS ....that money is spent in oppressing their people & buying arms & luxury goods!! the main problem is feudalism....if you even give provincial autonomy u still face some provinces left backwards and some really modernized....

you will turn your country into an east germany and west germany...or the diffrence between sicily and rome!!

feudalism is the core issue not provincial autonomy... if you are not getting cured you don't amputate

 

[All-Green]

When you further divide the Provinces you shall further strengthen the feudals if you do it without land reforms...the smaller the province the more unilateral the political scene will become in favor of only 1 or 2 families...

Enforce land reforms with an iron fist and most of our problems will be solved in the long run...without land reforms it would be foolish to enter into such an arrangement.

 

[s90]

Why so much talk about this province when same folks who were then in power didnt talked about it even once?

 

[qsaark]

@qsaark sir

the problem is the doctor is good the medication is good we just don't take it properly....

we give out money to the BUGTTIS,MENGALS,CHAUDRYs,KHANS ....that money is spent in oppressing their people & buying arms & luxury goods!! the main problem is feudalism....if you even give provincial autonomy u still face some provinces left backwards and some really modernized....

you will turn your country into an east germany and west germany...or the diffrence between sicily and rome!!

feudalism is the core issue not provincial autonomy... if you are not getting cured you don't amputate

Come on yaar, the NFC award does not go to the Bugtis or Mengals or whatever. It goes directly to the provincial governments. The whole problem lies there, in that NFC award. This thing that the federal government will collect the revenue and later distribute it among the provinces based on their population is totally wrong. How much revenue is generated by Balochistan? and how much of it actually goes to the provincial government? How much revenue is collected from Sindh (especially Karachi)? and how much of it goes to the provincial government of Sindh? Problem is not land reforms, the problem is to accept the ownership of the provinces on their resources.

You might not know but in Makran division, there is practically no feudalism left. Why? Because the Makranis started going abroad (in the gulf countries) and when they returned back, they had money and were no longer depending on the local Sardars, eventually, in less than 20 years, the feudal were left only in name. So I understand land reforms, but more than that, we need to give job opportunities to the people. A large middle class itself is sufficient to eradicate feudalism; you need no laws for that.

Now feudalism will always remain in one form or another, because that is the hallmark of the financial system we follow, the capitalism. There will always be people who will have lots of capital, and who will act like feudal. They buy lands, or high rise buildings, or industry, or Banks, they may be called with different names but in essence they are all feudal.

 

[Kasrkin]

This thing that the federal government will collect the revenue and later distribute it among the provinces based on their population is totally wrong. How much revenue is generated by Balochistan? and how much of it actually goes to the provincial government? How much revenue is collected from Sindh (especially Karachi)? and how much of it goes to the provincial government of Sindh? Problem is not land reforms, the problem is to accept the ownership of the provinces on their resources.

This autonomy to provinces thing is a long and complex debate. But this system of distributing resources as per population i.e. as per need is in no way ‘unfair’. In its own way it makes things less complicated and has helped with inter-ethnic integration. Unless ofcourse, you ask the ‘my money, my land, my tribe, my province’ type faction-ists who’re never satisfied and hardly have the interests of the larger Pakistani population in mind.

You never miss a chance to rage at Musharraf over his ‘lack of genuinely democratic rule’ but isn’t this anti-democratic? If there is a greater population and need in Lahore for gas than there is in Sui (a simple but crude example), shouldn’t the principle of democracy mean that what is favorable to the majority of the population should apply as opposed to ‘it came out of my land and therefore I decide who gets what and who doesn’t’. Can you imagine the bureaucratic hurdles and the stunted nature of national progress and functioning if our already troubled country got bogged down in all this needless nonsense?

You think we have food and water shortages due to avoidable mishandlings and red tape now, wait till you see what happens if your polarizing ideas are ever implemented (God forbid). The fact of the matter is that our people and their local governments are not ready for this. It would create too many problems and absolutely zero solutions. Things would be a mess with Pakistanis starving due to inter-provincial disputes which are a bad enough problem as it is.

Now feudalism will always remain in one form or another, because that is the hallmark of the financial system we follow, the capitalism.

Not really, you seem to have a distorted view of capitalism and no understanding of the term feudalism. There is no feudalism for instance in any of the developed countries that pioneered capitalism. Feudalism actually suppresses the potential of the local communities to contribute effectively to a capitalist economy. In a capitalist system a peasant can become a CEO but in feudal society a peasant is always a peasant. Actually, even socialist systems are arguably more feudal than capitalism where the work force is kept firmly in place through a conformity that gives the opportunity to advance only to a select few while the vast majority are kept content with their static fortunes.

 

[qsaark]

This autonomy to provinces thing is a long and complex debate. But this system of distributing resources as per population i.e. as per need is in no way ‘unfair’. In its own way it makes things less complicated and has helped with inter-ethnic integration.

Indeed it is unfair. In Balochistan, the population is scattered over long distances, hence they claim the resources be distributed based on the area. It is also a very valid demand. And I don’t know how you say it helped inter-ethnic integration. What I know is innocent Punjabi folks were identified and killed by the Balochs in various parts of Balochistan. If distribution of resources results in this kind of ‘inter-ethnic integration’ than I guess I am done with it.

Unless ofcourse, you ask the ‘my money, my land, my tribe, my province’ type faction-ists who’re never satisfied and hardly have the interests of the larger Pakistani population in mind.

The province that generates the revenue has the first right over it, later come the others. That is how it is done in the democratic and civilized countries. Out of several reasons, this was one of the major reasons for why East Pakistan broke away that is unfair distribution of the resources. If we are determined not to learn the lesson from the past, than I guess there is no point discussing anything. If this continues like this, Balochistan will eventually secede from Pakistan and for good I guess.

You never miss a chance to rage at Musharraf over his ‘lack of genuinely democratic rule’ but isn’t this anti-democratic? If there is a greater population and need in Lahore for gas than there is in Sui (a simple but crude example), shouldn’t the principle of democracy mean that what is favorable to the majority of the population should apply as opposed to ‘it came out of my land and therefore I decide who gets what and who doesn’t’.

No, democracy gives right to the people not takes it from them. If natural gas comes from the Sui Balochistan, than the royalty must go to Balochsitan so that the money earned could be used for the welfare of the people.

Can you imagine the bureaucratic hurdles and the stunted nature of national progress and functioning if our already troubled country got bogged down in all this needless nonsense?

I can imagine those hurdles, but for how long should we keep giving the same excuse and not fixing the problems?

You think we have food and water shortages due to avoidable mishandlings and red tape now, wait till you see what happens if your polarizing ideas are ever implemented (God forbid). The fact of the matter is that our people and their local governments are not ready for this. It would create too many problems and absolutely zero solutions. Things would be a mess with Pakistanis starving due to inter-provincial disputes which are a bad enough problem as it is.

It is going to be even worse if these issues are not settled.

Not really, you seem to have a distorted view of capitalism and no understanding of the term feudalism. There is no feudalism for instance in any of the developed countries that pioneered capitalism. Feudalism actually suppresses the potential of the local communities to contribute effectively to a capitalist economy. In a capitalist system a peasant can become a CEO but in feudal society a peasant is always a peasant. Actually, even socialist systems are arguably more feudal than capitalism where the work force is kept firmly in place through a conformity that gives the opportunity to advance only to a select few while the vast majority are kept content with their static fortunes.

You can never debate without attacking personally and putting the intelligence of the people to question. I live in USA, where you watch and experience capitalism every minute. And I belong to Balochistan, and my family is a feudal family. Feudalism I have learnt from my family background and capitalism from my own experience while living in the heart of the capitalism.

It is not correct to say that in capitalism, a farmer can become a CEO one day. No, things don’t work like this. Here in USA, all the small farmers were forced to sell their lands to the big farmers, and big farmers were forced to sell their lands to the multinational franchises. Who says a farmer can become a CEO? In fact, the farmer has to say goodbye to his profession if he has to survive. Fact of the matter is not what you are telling me, fact of the matter is this, that the multinational franchises own everything. And now these franchises are aiming at the lands in Africa, and in Asia. A farmer can only become an employee of these franchises, but CEO, you are seriously mistaking.

You have rightly said that Feudalism actually suppresses the potential of the local communities to contribute effectively to a capitalist economy and so does the capitalism. In US cities, you’ll not find small time grocery stores because all that business has already been taken up by the franchises such as Publix, Kroger. Similarly, personally owned pharmacies don’t exist here because their business has been snatched away by the franchises like CVS, Walgreens. Small general stores don’t exist here because of giants like Walmart, Kmart, and Target. The Restaurant business is taken over by McDonald, KFC, Wandy’s etc. All the housing business is in the hands of the banks, it is the bank that owns your house, not you. It is the bank that owns your car, not you. These are all the example of capitalism, where you remain who you are, and others use your money to collect their fortune. Now sometimes good things also happen, and a hard working middle class person may become a big shot. But such events are rare, and should be considered exceptions rather than the norms of a capitalist society.

So I do not restrict my vision of feudalism to the literal feudalism. For me there are so many similarities between the two that the two appear one to me. The names are different, the titles are different, but the philosophy and the functioning of the two are similar. Both the systems thrive through oppression, in feudalism, it is crude, in capitalism, it is more civil.

 

[muse]

Agnostic

I apologise for the late response and I do take your point, however; I would point out that there seems to be considerable support in Majlis for sucha move. You are exactly right about PML-N hedging it's bet and would it really be such a bad idea if PML-N calls for new provinces to be created out of other provinces??

All Green seems to think so, his remedy is Land reform, but this is a non-starter, Pakistan is the most urbanized country in South Asia and it is a trend that will not let up.

Feudalism is a problem, however; the larger problem for Pakistan is the perception among majorities of Pakistanis that they do not get a fair shake -- fair or unfair, perception is reality.

The thread seems to have taken a Balouchistan turn and in that regard, would not the perception of unfair treatment be abated were such a unified term not employed to refer to the problem but rather that the problem be attended in small pieces in which solutions could be sought?

We have had big governement for a long time, but has it been effective governement? DO ordinary citizenry "feel" they have a stake in their goverenance and the delivery of government services?

I am motivated to point out that in my opinion, time is really short for Pakistan's existence as a "MODERN" nation state - please trust me that it is do or die time, already there are plans in motion to tear away pieces of it because the perception is being formed that Pakistan are unwilling to be a Modern nation state with a overarching identity and sense of purpose that gives not just it's citizenry but the international community the sense that they have worthwhile enterprise on their hands.