Disgraced heroes of nuclear Pakistan

[Ababeel]

There was no Palestinoian country, the land was shared by three religions with each side havign numerical doominace at various points. What makes one sides claims more valid? Prior to 1947 no land wa stolen from Palestinians, it wa slegally bought from those who legally owned it (most were absentee landlords in Egypt). After 47 the Palestinians rejected state hood and invaded and lost. what gives the Palestinians the right to take Jewish land (borders in 47) or to keep any land of thier after invading and startign an illegal war of agression?

Where were the Jews for last almost 2000 years before 19th century. Where were jews when muslim army captured Jerusalem in the reign of Caliph Omar (R.A.). Christian army and population was there to fight the muslim army and no Jews. Even in the surrender agreement or Jerusalem hand over pact Christian leaders were hell bent, that the new muslim administrators must not allow the jews for pilgrimage and settlement in Palestine and specially the Jerusalem for which the pact was being agreed.
Which jewish population you are talking ?
The Jewish population brought and illegally settled by Terrorist US and UK by using all means of terrorising the Palestinian population?

 

[zraver]

There has never been a time when Jews did not live in Palestine, kicked out of Jeruslem from time to time does not mean kicked out of the entire region.

In 1165, Benjamin of Tudela, the renowned Spanish traveler, found that the "Academy of Jerusalem" had been established at Damascus. Although the Crusaders had almost "wiped out" the Jewish communities of Jerusalem, Acre, Caesarea and Haifa, some Jews remained, and whole "village communities of Galilee survived.

as Jacques of Verona, a visiting Christian monk, attested. After the Christian had "noted the long established Jewish community at the foot of Mount Zion, in Jerusalem," he wrote,

A pilgrim who wished to visit ancient forts and towns in the Holy Land would have been unable to locate these, without a good guide who knew the Land well, or without one of the Jews who lived there. The Jews were able to recount the history of these places since this knowledge had been handed down from their forefathers and wise men.

So when I journeyed overseas I often requested and managed to obtain an excellent guide among the Jews who lived there.19

[/quote]1486 "a distinguished pilgrim" to the Holy Land, the Dean of Mainz Cathedral, Bernhard von Breidenbach, advised that both Hebron's and Jerusalem's Jews "will treat you in full fidelity -- more so than anyone else in those countries of the unbelievers."22[/quote]

while the first Jewish printing press outside Europe was instituted in Safed in 1563.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/presence.html

All the claims are properly work cited and source in the biblio at the bottom of the links page.

Only the ignorant masses and those who use racism over logic persist in the beleif that the was ever a time from thje Hyskion expulsion forward that the area did not have a Jewish population. The jews are ther eand have been there non-stop for thousands of years. The palestinians have much younger claims but are jsut as attached to the land. the result is war. There is also a continious Christian presence from the Death of Christ forward.

 

[Neo]

Israel was put into place in the arab lands. Why not in freaking Africa?

IIRC UK at one point suggested a jewish state in Africa, somewhere near Uganda but the proposal was rejected by the jewish leaders.

 

[Neo]

Or say in Australia. There land is huge and a lot of resources are available with almost no population!
Kashif

Or give them Florida, Boca is as sacred to Jews is Jesusalem nowadays.

 

[Neo]

...The Jews links to the land- religious-cultural-ethnic-historical are undeniable, they are also have the oldest claim...

Sir,

Undenialble is also the fact that Abraham (called Abram at that time), the father of Jewish nation, himself came from the ancient city of Ur in Chaldea...a place near Basra in Southern Iraq. According to The Pentateuch (The Thora) God chose and commanded him to follow His lead to the land where He would bless Abram with offspring and create God's nation called Israel.
The claim is based on religion and the land is known as Israel today.
If religion is a legitimate source of claim then Muslims should have the same rights.

Abrams route to kana'an, The Promised Land

 

[zraver]

Neo, I am not denying Muslim claims although religously form the western perspective they are not the hiers of Abraham in this region-Ishmael went a seperate direction. Palestinians actually trace their oldest claims through Palestinian Christians. What I am try to do is level the palyign feild here, so that a rational discussion can take place.If we accpet all claims as valid then the only solution is one that is equitable. This means israel has to stop certain practices and guarentee the integrity of the lands deemed Palestinian. However the same burden is palce don the Palestinians.

The chief stumbling block is the right of return, and quite frankly the Palestinians lost that right when they made war- to the victor go the spoils, not to the loser go the spoils. Plus any talk about the right of return would also involve compensation for thye mass expulsions of the Jews in Islamic lands.

The best solution is for those wealthy nations with a vested interes tin the region to buy the Palestinian claims to israel outright with the palestinian authority using immenint domain where needed to get such claims. And then use that cash to build a Modern Palestinian state. But as history has shown again and again the Palestinians and those profitting off thier plight (glares at Syria and Iran) don't want a two state solution.

BTW the modern day Chaldeans are Christian not Muslim, a fac tthat has them being force dout of Iraq in droves.

 

[EagleEyes]

IIRC UK at one point suggested a jewish state in Africa, somewhere near Uganda but the proposal was rejected by the jewish leaders.

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[joey]

So again you look confused to me Asim. For the sake of argument, let's assume your solution. Then would it not open a pandara's box for every one? Tommorrow, the expatriats from Asia would demand a homeland in Europe and America. It would be a legitimate demand! They now live there so need a country of thier own. So there would be a demand for a mini China, mini India, mini Pakistan/Islamistan and so on and on, right there in Europe and America.

Also you have never answered my earlier question. Why on earth, Palistinians have to pay the price of loosing thier country for the crimes that Europe committed?

Kashif

If you think Israel needs to be wiped off, I can question and can debate your thoughts and its direct interestes with India, add to that I can question the reason you feel that Pakistans partition was legitimate, or even Bangladeshs one was legitimate or not based on your quid=pro=pro thoughts.

Get over it, Every partition in this world happened as a follow up to series of political movement, USSR got broken into pieces, Pakistan lost its one part, India ceased to exist from "akhand bharat", The solution lies in peace and only peace.

For once surely there are some serious human rights issues when Israel is concerned then again you have always the other side of the story as well.

Make no mistake I'm no zionist singer, but a avid nationalist and i hate communism and anything relating communists borderless brotherhood idea.

As much as I feel for re-settlement for Palestanians for better life, I'm happy that the money from Arab is being diverted in two source one to kashmir and another to palestain, (forgot the money in mango box issue?) imagine what would have happened if all finances came here eh? Or you dont care for the jawans fighting at -40 degrees?

PS : regarding Iran and Israel issue, I fully and fuly support Irans civilian nuclear programme, Iran is Indias long lasting friend and not some double faced hypocrits like Saudi Arabia.

and oh do you know if Israel attacks Iran it has to do that through Arabs airspace only?



The entire Israeli flight plan between Israel and Iraq is done via Saudi Arabia and so will be against Iran.

 

[niaz]

What I find paradoxical in all this debate is that,the world that mattered ( Britain, France and US) agreed to grant the land of Palestine to Jews. Mainly because that they were rulers of that land ( Judea and Israel being two ancient Jewish states) about the time Romans arrived.
But they conveniently ignore sons of the soil before and after !!. What about the rights of the Palestinians??. According to Bible Canaanites and Moabs were living there before the Israelites thew them out and captured these lands. How far back you want to go, dont the descendents of those people have a prior claim??.

Fact of the matter is Israel is a state born out of forced eviction of the Palestinians. True, there was no country called Palestine but the land was called Palestine from God knows when. The whole area was a the Turkish Province called 'Bilad us Sham'. This included modern day Syria, Lebenon, Jordan and Israel. The divison was artificial based upon an agreement between the Allies ( UK and France) who were fighting against the Axis powers ( Germany and Turkey). UK had promised Syria to Amir Faisal. However instead they made him King of Iraq ( another Turkish province) , His younger brother Amir Abdullah of Trans Jordania ( Across Jordan river). Lebenon and Syria were handed over to France and Palestince was governed by UK under a League of Nations mandate.

The above are historical facts. Pray tell me on what grounds one justify evicting Palestinians and settling Jews in their places. Irony is that most of the Jewish settlers weren't really the Jews by "race". Story is that a country called Khazaar around Caspian Sea ( Also known as Sea of Khazaars) decided that they wanted to be neither the Christians nor Muslims, so they converted en mass to Judaism. Most European Jews are these Kazaars and they speak 'Yiddish'. Just think, any one "native' of Palestine/ Egypt as the Israelites originally were, would be expected to look like Arabs who are literally their cousins and even Hebrew is quite similar to Semitic languages. Euoropean or Ashknazi Jews are truly Europeans.

One has to face the facts; The known world has been ruled by the European Powers since the start of Industrial Revolution ( late 18th Century). These powers have divided, created and evicted local population as they saw fit. In case of the Americas ( US in particular) most of the native population was killed off.

One Hon member had mentioned that Iraq attack was "Coallition". What a joke, only two countries really sent any siginificant forces; US and Britain, other contingents are numbered in only tens and hunderds ( Spain, South Korea, Italy and Japan). This is a deception carried thru the might of the US and its media.

No matter what Arabs and rest the world desires; power still lies with the US and its allies and they rule the roost. Prudence therefore demands that we accept it. What I despise however is that US through its propaganda insults my intelligence.

 

[Adux]

Sir,

Isnt that circle of life, the spoils are for the victors, Palestine was a british province and they gave it to the jews. They have the right....Such is life.
What would you say if Sikh's start demanding eastern punjab.
Jews were also thrown out of palestine during different times?

 

[zraver]

1- The kazaari might be a part of the Jewish population, but not the bulk by anymeans. Of the others while ethnically European via ages of interbreeding they are the direct decendants of the Jews exiled by Rome. They were recognized as kindsmen by the Jews who had never left Judea.

2- If you want to talk insulting some ones intelligenge- why do so many Muslims refuse to admit that the land was never jew free, and complain about a Palestinian expulsion while ignoring Islam's own expulsion of Jews?

3- Most Israelies today were born in Palestine, can you get any more native than that. There ar eeven now third generation Israelies. Seeing as most palestinoians were only thrid generation in 1948....... what exactly makes some one native?