Discussion: Is Pakistan's economy failing because it is not a secular nation?

[Menace2Society]

Do you know how Malaysia and the gulf societies handle these people?
THEY DO NOT TOLERATE THEM!
Pakistan... oh boy.... if some posters had their way, we would be living in a 7th century mud hut.


Look at every developed non oil state, look at what they are obsessed with.... I will give you a hint, it's not religion.

Definitely. I will also make the case a secular Pakistani is more patriotic than a Muslim Pakistani.

I am the case study I have survived the Indian wave, Afghan wave, Iranian wave, Al Qaeda wave. This ideology is resilient and completely cancels 5th gen warfare and psyops.

This is why USA, UK, OZ, Europe are impenetrable.

We must evolve.

 

[TheSolution]

Not true. Millions of non government institutions have rules and regulations. For example Universities, country clubs, etc.
You can have a non government institution that makes ruling on religious mater and the government does not need to get involved.
Remember, religion is voluntary. You can't force people into heaven. They need to voluntarily believe or not. The government, on the other hand, is not voluntary. The government only has one tool and that is force. Once you get government involved in religion, you now have a non voluntary institution.

I don't see why religious madrassas would choose to regulate themselves unless the government forces those rules on them

You think the extremists controlling it will just suddenly decide to do it on their own?

Plus ensuring the quality of madrasas and their preachers meets a minimum standard is very little involvement to offset extremism. It's something a country like Pakistan should do anyway no matter the political set up. One of the only ways to get rid of extremism.

 

[313ghazi]

North Korea is better than Pakistan you're right. This is getting ridiculous

North Korea

Pakistan

Nice images. Selected to suit your childish agenda.

 

[iLION12345_1]

North Korea is better than Pakistan you're right. This is getting ridiculous

North Korea

Pakistan

Extremely stupid comparison.

Though I’d say yes, not being secular is one of the factors holding Pakistan back from developing, but NOT because there’s an issue with Islam or religion in general, but because we use Islam as a political and manipulative tool instead of as a guide, in the process ruining both our religion and our politics. Religion and politics should be kept separate in Pakistan. Not because they cannot co-exist, in a perfect world they should, but for the sake of Islam itself, so people, especially clergy, will stop making up their own version of Islam every new day to manipulate and scam people out of money and votes.

 

[TheSolution]

Extremely stupid comparison.

Though I’d say yes, not being secular is one of the factors holding Pakistan back from developing, but NOT because there’s an issue with Islam or religion in general, but because we use Islam as a political and manipulative tool instead of as a guide, in the process ruining both our religion and our politics. Religion and politics should be kept separate in Pakistan. Not because they cannot co-exist, in a perfect world they should, but for the sake of Islam itself, so people, especially clergy, will stop making up their own version of Islam every new day to manipulate and scam people out of money and votes.

Secularism would cause a whole new set of issues, such as separatist insurgencies and an empowered form of TTP.

It's not possible in Pakistan unless you want to set a timer for destruction. Even in the current form Pakistan is not a theocracy, the Islamic aspect is mostly ceremonial.

Those issues you mentioned just require mass education and regulations of madrassas.

 

[Rusty2]

I don't see why religious madrassas would choose to regulate themselves unless the government forces those rules on them

You think the extremists controlling it will just suddenly decide to do it on their own?

Plus ensuring the quality of madrasas and their preachers meets a minimum standard is very little involvement to offset extremism. It's something a country like Pakistan should do anyway no matter the political set up. One of the only ways to get rid of extremism.

threat of jail is a good motivator.

but NOT because there’s an issue with Islam or religion in general, but because we use Islam as a political and manipulative tool instead of as a guide, in the process ruining both our religion and our politics. Religion and politics should be kept separate in Pakistan.

This is exactly what I and many others are saying.

Secularism would cause a whole new set of issues, such as separatist insurgencies and an empowered form of TTP.

It's not possible in Pakistan unless you want to set a timer for destruction. Even in the current form Pakistan is not a theocracy, the Islamic aspect is mostly ceremonial.

Those issues you mentioned just require mass education and regulations of madrassas.

Do those separatists not exist already? How will it cause something that is already there?

 

[VCheng]

Religion and politics should be kept separate in Pakistan.

Except that the founder of modern day Pakistan, General Zia ul Haq ensured that religion remains intertwined with everything to keep everything suitably entangled to be exploited at will. By design. All subsequent rules have continued to exploit this feature. ALL of them.

 

[UKBengali]

Pakistani mindset is still back in many centuries ago and not caught up to even the 20th century, let alone the 21st century.

As an example of how far back its mindset is, more than 50% of Pakistanis marry either their first cousin or 2nd cousin. In BD it is less than 1%.

Only advanced and industrialising Muslim country with high rates of cousin marriage is Turkey but that is mainly in the poorer Eastern regions where mainly Kurds reside. Ethnic Turks have rates of cousin marriage below 10%.

Pakistan would need an absolute dictator like Mao to go in and totally destroy a lot of Pakistani culture and start afresh like happened in China if it is to ever develop and escape 3rd world status.

 

[TheSolution]

threat of jail is a good motivator.

Threat of jail means state regulation which was my point since the very beginning.

Do those separatists not exist already? How will it cause something that is already there?

There are different levels of separatist insurgency.

Bangladesh's insurgency also started off at this level till it continued to gain traction, once insurgencies exist they only need something to boost them, or something to get rid of them.

Secularism would be a mass booster. Check the demographics of Pakistan. It's a divided confederation of 4 states very loosely intertwined. Separatist sentiments are very easy to rile up, under secularism they'd be infinitely more easier.

Pakistani mindset is still back in many centuries ago and not caught up to even the 20th century, let alone the 21st century.

As an example of how far back its mindset is, more than 50% of Pakistanis marry either their first cousin or 2nd cousin. In BD it is less than 1%.

Only advanced and industrialising Muslim country with high rates of cousin marriage is Turkey but that is mainly in the poorer Eastern regions where mainly Kurds reside. Ethnic Turks have rates of cousin marriage below 10%.

Pakistan would need an absolute dictator like Mao to go in and totally destroy a lot of Pakistani culture and start afresh like happened in China if it is to ever develop and escape 3rd world status.

True.

It doesn't even have to be a ruthless violent way of doing it, but just mass education to get rid of the negative cultural traits.

Cousin marriage statistics:

 

[Dalit]

Hiding behind nonsense. The only reason why Pakistani economy is failing is because of the imported government.

You guys have it your way now. You have PDM leading the country. Yet your beloved PDM leaders have destroyed the economy in a matter of months. The irony is that Pakistan is already led by godless corrupt stooges LOL So much for prosperity and economic development by PPP and PML-N.

 

[Rusty2]

Threat of jail means state regulation which was my point since the very beginning.


There are different levels of separatist insurgency.

Bangladesh's insurgency also started off at this level till it continued to gain traction, once insurgencies exist they only need something to boost them, or something to get rid of them.

Secularism would be a mass booster. Check the demographics of Pakistan. It's a divided confederation of 4 states very loosely intertwined. Separatist sentiments are very easy to rile up, under secularism they'd be infinitely more easier.


True.

It doesn't even have to be a ruthless violent way of doing it, but just mass education to get rid of the negative cultural traits.

Cousin marriage statistics:

View attachment 912082

No it doesn't The state is enforcing laws on hate speech and terrorism. Those are not state regulation, those are laws.

I think we will have to disagree with "levels of insurgency"
There is no level that can top the religious insurgency that Pakistan has witnessed over the last 20 years. In my opinion.

And I think you and I are 10000% in agreement about cousin marriages. It's freaking disgusting and needs to stop. Like holy crap is it backwards and gross.

 

[TheSolution]

No it doesn't The state is enforcing laws on hate speech and terrorism. Those are not state regulation, those are laws.

Well this is a game of semantics, if you are applying laws to a certain sector, in our case the religious madrassas, that can essentially be seen as regulation. Because they can't freely do or say whatever.

We seem to be on the same page here.

I think we will have to disagree with "levels of insurgency"
There is no level that can top the religious insurgency that Pakistan has witnessed over the last 20 years. In my opinion.

What if I told you that the insurgency you saw in the past 20 years was not just religious but actually had a base in tribal Pashtuns?

You should read up on the history of this, their demands, their recruitment base, and even who supported them externally.

And I think you and I are 10000% in agreement about cousin marriages. It's freaking disgusting and needs to stop. Like holy crap is it backwards and gross.

Agreed

 

[Abdul Rehman Majeed]

Pakistani mindset is still back in many centuries ago and not caught up to even the 20th century, let alone the 21st century.

As an example of how far back its mindset is, more than 50% of Pakistanis marry either their first cousin or 2nd cousin. In BD it is less than 1%.

Only advanced and industrialising Muslim country with high rates of cousin marriage is Turkey but that is mainly in the poorer Eastern regions where mainly Kurds reside. Ethnic Turks have rates of cousin marriage below 10%.

Pakistan would need an absolute dictator like Mao to go in and totally destroy a lot of Pakistani culture and start afresh like happened in China if it is to ever develop and escape 3rd world status.

BD is the biggest back stabber of Islam and a slave of the Hindus.

We will not sell our Iman like BD.

 

[TheSolution]

Definitely. I will also make the case a secular Pakistani is more patriotic than a Muslim Pakistani.

A secular Pakistani can be Muslim too this doesn't make sense, unless you mean atheist?

 

[Menace2Society]

A secular Pakistani can be Muslim too this doesn't make sense, unless you mean atheist?

A muslim can coexist with secularism in the west because political Islam is banned.

In Pakistan the dynamic is different because the nature of Islam being practiced is very political. They identify with it more than Pakistan. This is Pakistans soft spot that foreign countries and agencies take advantage of by manipulation and psyops.

A secular Pakistani who only practices Islam the faith is bulletproof. That is patriotism at its purest.

Read up on Americanism and how they internalized their faith to strengthen state ideology - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion