Directed Energy Weapons: Pakistan

[MastanKhan]

It's sad the slave mentality of our nation, I envy the Turks for their nationalism and mustafa kemal, Pakistan has much more potential than them, much more resources more man power nukes technological help of China yet we still
It is really sad,
Nationalism is needed in this nation

Hi,

Young man---it is not nationalism that we need---it is the lack of " character " that we have which is the main culprit---.

 

[Armchair]

three blind men and an elephant.

Hopefully we can get back to the topic.

Lasers - a major Alvin Toffler Third Wave technology. Could revolutionize:

1. Ground based air defence
2. Naval warfare
3. EW / DEW
4. Secure communication links
5. Cheap guided weapons like ATGMs / ASMs

In fact, the cheapest way to get a guided weapon is using beam riding. This you can literally make at home - you simply use photo-diodes. Photo diodes technically are supposed to only work with light but in actuality, these cheap systems work with lasers too.

For example, if you attach four photo diods on the end of a missile, and point the laser at it, you could program it that the missile would turn towards the diode that gets more laser on it. This would allow you to have a 10 km SAM using garage electronics.

I always wondered why all these Muslim duds are crying, screaming while helplessly watching their countries, cities, homes being bombed. They could simply build a very basic and simple SAM system. Combine that with a 150 USD NVG, and you have a day / night capable 10 km range SAM. Effectively negating the complete enemy air superiority we see when Muslims are the victims.

I always wondered. I'll go to my grave wondering.

There are many other such simple and effective solutions. I'm afraid I'd have someone knocking on my door if I put all of them out but nothing I know is secret - its all available on the internet. From cruise missiles to small arms, to UAVs, to SAMs, to EW jammers to basic radar decoys... all can simply be made with readily available stuff in one's garage.

I'm branching off a bit but the essence of what I am saying is that the technology is right there - its the mindset that is the issue.

 

[Army research]

Hi,

Young man---it is not nationalism that we need---it is the lack of " character " that we have which is the main culprit---.

True sir but I think that nationalism means caring for fellow country men which means developing a generous and honest character

 

[MastanKhan]

True sir but I think that nationalism means caring for fellow country men which means developing a generous and honest character

Hi,

Young man---do you know what Prophet Mohammad was known for---?

I can guarantee you for sure that he was not known for his NATIONALISM---.

What seperated him apart was his character---the attributes of his character led him to to gain the respect of multitude---.

 

[SQ8]

three blind men and an elephant.

Hopefully we can get back to the topic.

Lasers - a major Alvin Toffler Third Wave technology. Could revolutionize:

1. Ground based air defence
2. Naval warfare
3. EW / DEW
4. Secure communication links
5. Cheap guided weapons like ATGMs / ASMs

In fact, the cheapest way to get a guided weapon is using beam riding. This you can literally make at home - you simply use photo-diodes. Photo diodes technically are supposed to only work with light but in actuality, these cheap systems work with lasers too.

For example, if you attach four photo diods on the end of a missile, and point the laser at it, you could program it that the missile would turn towards the diode that gets more laser on it. This would allow you to have a 10 km SAM using garage electronics.

I always wondered why all these Muslim duds are crying, screaming while helplessly watching their countries, cities, homes being bombed. They could simply build a very basic and simple SAM system. Combine that with a 150 USD NVG, and you have a day / night capable 10 km range SAM. Effectively negating the complete enemy air superiority we see when Muslims are the victims.

I always wondered. I'll go to my grave wondering.

There are many other such simple and effective solutions. I'm afraid I'd have someone knocking on my door if I put all of them out but nothing I know is secret - its all available on the internet. From cruise missiles to small arms, to UAVs, to SAMs, to EW jammers to basic radar decoys... all can simply be made with readily available stuff in one's garage.

I'm branching off a bit but the essence of what I am saying is that the technology is right there - its the mindset that is the issue.

You speak to a bright Air Commodore Y in the air plans department who gives you ideas on what you can add to your SAM.. and then suggests you present to AVM SM when ready.
You start with your simple photo diode idea and develop it into a fairly workable ccd imaging system to track aircraft. You take your idea to a PAF senior officer(say an AVM)who asks you to present it to a group. Before the presentation a certain group captain asks you why your idea is any good versus a French Missile? You give him reasons including that of self reliance but he sounds cynical and skeptical.
You give a great presentation and many seem impressed, but after the presentation you see the group captain whispering in a corner to an air commodore C .. later that air commodore goes and talks to the AVM with the group captain in tow and suggests that if there truly is a need for such a system group captain teli can get the PAF a much more reliable system than some local unknown startup and can even get An advanced radar. They then work with the French to start the bid in a locked out spec state and in the meantime the group captain’s account in dubai gains some money. Additionally per the group captain’s suggestion the French bid partners with the air commodore’s cousin’s company in Pakistan who work as local agent and get commission.
Meanwhile, by the time you get back to checking on the status of the missile procurement you find that it has been locked to the French equipment and the group captain’s coursemate is the engineering evaluator assigned to the project thanks to the Air commodore C’s intervention.

You try to bid but you know you have no chance of beating these specs. You try to get a chance to request the AVM as to why the entire idea got changed into this expensive foriegn bid but he is unavailable, you call up the Air commodore

Eventually you learn that while that air commodore’s firm won the bid and some money was sent as advance to the air commodore C’s company but due to changing diplomatic and economic consitions nothing came besides brochures. The group captain made money and air commodore C got a medal and plot after the AVM recommendatio for his clear thinking and efforts for the defense of the country.
You meet Air commodore Y and tell
him of this and he sounds extremely disappointed but tell you not to give up. He will keep trying and goes back to actually doing his job of defending this country.

Welcome to most procurement in Pakistan.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Hi,

Young man---do you know what Prophet Mohammad was known for---?

I can guarantee you for sure that he was not known for his NATIONALISM---.

What seperated him apart was his character---the attributes of his character led him to to gain the respect of multitude---.

Technically there was no nation in Arabia, just city states.
But if you are going to give the Prophet Mohammad PBUH as an example, he also did not sling mud on others or baseless accusations around. Something to consider?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

You speak to a bright Air Commodore Y in the air plans department who gives you ideas on what you can add to your SAM.. and then suggests you present to AVM SM when ready.
You start with your simple photo diode idea and develop it into a fairly workable ccd imaging system to track aircraft. You take your idea to a PAF senior officer(say an AVM)who asks you to present it to a group. Before the presentation a certain group captain asks you why your idea is any good versus a French Missile? You give him reasons including that of self reliance but he sounds cynical and skeptical.
You give a great presentation and many seem impressed, but after the presentation you see the group captain whispering in a corner to an air commodore C .. later that air commodore goes and talks to the AVM with the group captain in tow and suggests that if there truly is a need for such a system group captain teli can get the PAF a much more reliable system than some local unknown startup and can even get An advanced radar. They then work with the French to start the bid in a locked out spec state and in the meantime the group captain’s account in dubai gains some money. Additionally per the group captain’s suggestion the French bid partners with the air commodore’s cousin’s company in Pakistan who work as local agent and get commission.
Meanwhile, by the time you get back to checking on the status of the missile procurement you find that it has been locked to the French equipment and the group captain’s coursemate is the engineering evaluator assigned to the project thanks to the Air commodore C’s intervention.

You try to bid but you know you have no chance of beating these specs. You try to get a chance to request the AVM as to why the entire idea got changed into this expensive foriegn bid but he is unavailable, you call up the Air commodore

Eventually you learn that while that air commodore’s firm won the bid and some money was sent as advance to the air commodore C’s company but due to changing diplomatic and economic consitions nothing came besides brochures. The group captain made money and air commodore C got a medal and plot after the AVM recommendatio for his clear thinking and efforts for the defense of the country.
You meet Air commodore Y and tell
him of this and he sounds extremely disappointed but tell you not to give up. He will keep trying and goes back to actually doing his job of defending this country.

Welcome to most procurement in Pakistan.

Sorry about your experience. Climate for indigenous development has changed but I know where you are coming from.

 

[Army research]

Hi,

Young man---do you know what Prophet Mohammad was known for---?

I can guarantee you for sure that he was not known for his NATIONALISM---.

What seperated him apart was his character---the attributes of his character led him to to gain the respect of multitude---.

Of course sir I apologise ,
Kudos

 

[MastanKhan]

Technically there was no nation in Arabia, just city states.
But if you are going to give the Prophet Mohammad PBUH as an example, he also did not sling mud on others or baseless accusations around. Something to consider?

Hi,

We are just talking about the character and nationalism issue here---leave it at that please and work your agenda somewhere else---.

 

[SQ8]

Sorry about your experience. Climate for indigenous development has changed but I know where you are coming from.

Not much will change unless the recruitment process for all armed forces changes. There is a reason I like the IDF/AF's "Gibbush" training camp and selection process. WHen you are proactively looking for the best and brightest, you will get the best and brightest. When you are letting everyone join up and volunteer you will end up with the crop that is Pakistan.. you will get rote learning nincompoops who cant think out of the box, you will cheating sycophants, and then maybe you will get some good bright individuals.

 

[CriticalThought]

Not much will change unless the recruitment process for all armed forces changes. There is a reason I like the IDF/AF's "Gibbush" training camp and selection process. WHen you are proactively looking for the best and brightest, you will get the best and brightest. When you are letting everyone join up and volunteer you will end up with the crop that is Pakistan.. you will get rote learning nincompoops who cant think out of the box, you will cheating sycophants, and then maybe you will get some good bright individuals.

Pakistan today is the result of systematic selection of the least fit. We have unnatural selection going on. Top students from A levels go to Oxford/Cambridge before they even see a Pakistani uni. Amongst the graduates who find their way to American unis, the top most tier will be given too many incentives to even consider Pakistan. The kind of foreign educated people who are sent back are just above average people who are treated as Lords in Pakistan. This crop gets hired into key positions, and ensures the ever lasting mental slavery. They might send some really intelligent people who are experts in 'soft areas' such as medicine, social sciences, politics etc.

Most of our establishment is enamored with anything foreign. There is complete lack of belief in our own abilities. And there are multiple incidents of not just failure, but lies and mismanagement in the past that reinforce this perception.

In any given area, for indigenous development to proceed, we need someone who understands the field deeply, is sincere to Pakistan, and has the authority and power to hire the right people and get their knowledge and expertise passed on to the younger generation. There should be courses available for young professionals that can be taken remotely from Pakistan via teleconferencing as the need arises to fill in gaps in knowledge. This should happen in parallel to their daily office work, working on the R&D project. A few years needs to be given, but I feel this model will produce results. Insha Allah.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

@Mahmood uz Zaman

 

[Deltaviper]

It's not just my wish list, such coatings actually exist to deter laser targeting. The only unknown is their efficacy against a high powered energy weapon. And since they work on passive cancellation, they will be effective no matter how much time elapses.

High powered lasers are also subject to attenuation in the atmosphere, especially in severe weather.

One area where they could work very well is space - if the power problem could be solved.

Hi, you can not compare the coatings used for deterring target tracking and protective measures against laser weapons. Although I'm not an expert in military uses as such but I know a thing or two about optics in specific and physics in general... Let me try and speculate a little:

1) Target designation Lasers:
purpose: to identify a target so that friendly forces can take it out or avoid it or whatever the tactical use...
The basic operation would be that a laser beam is projected onto the target which reflects it and friendlies see that reflection, lock on the weapons to that and do what they need to.
Countermeasure: If you're someone trying to prevent your enemy from using laser designation against you, you'd try to minimize the intensity of the reflected laser beam. To do this you'll use coatings that absorb the laser energy projected your way, minimizing reflection so that tracking the reflected 'spot' is difficult.

Now any energy 'absorbed' needs to be dissipated, that's not a problem with the hypothetical laser absorbing coatings discussed above since the target designation lasers are not very high in intensity, as compared with the ones we're going to talk about below. So, most probably the energy of the absorbed photons becomes thermal energy and is dissipated as such.

2) Laser Energy Weapons:
Purpose: to destroy a target by projected very high-intensity laser on to a known target. The mechanism of action will be to exploit precisely what was the savior in the scenario above. All materials absorb some part of the incident laser's energy. The very high power laser would fall on the target and part of it will be absorbed, now if the material cannot dissipate that absorbed energy quickly enough, the temperature will start to rise. The goal of the weapon is to deliver enough energy quickly enough to either destroy the target thermally or at-least deliver enough energy to destroy/disable (fry) some vulnerable critical systems such as electronics.

So you see a coating designed to beat laser designation could potentially make matters worse when a high-intensity laser is projected onto it as a weapon.

note: I'm not saying countermeasures cannot be built, just saying an absorptive coating would make matters worse.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi, you can not compare the coatings used for deterring target tracking and protective measures against laser weapons. Although I'm not an expert in military uses as such but I know a thing or two about optics in specific and physics in general... Let me try and speculate a little:

1) Target designation Lasers:
purpose: to identify a target so that friendly forces can take it out or avoid it or whatever the tactical use...
The basic operation would be that a laser beam is projected onto the target which reflects it and friendlies see that reflection, lock on the weapons to that and do what they need to.
Countermeasure: If you're someone trying to prevent your enemy from using laser designation against you, you'd try to minimize the intensity of the reflected laser beam. To do this you'll use coatings that absorb the laser energy projected your way, minimizing reflection so that tracking the reflected 'spot' is difficult.

Now any energy 'absorbed' needs to be dissipated, that's not a problem with the hypothetical laser absorbing coatings discussed above since the target designation lasers are not very high in intensity, as compared with the ones we're going to talk about below. So, most probably the energy of the absorbed photons becomes thermal energy and is dissipated as such.

2) Laser Energy Weapons:
Purpose: to destroy a target by projected very high-intensity laser on to a known target. The mechanism of action will be to exploit precisely what was the savior in the scenario above. All materials absorb some part of the incident laser's energy. The very high power laser would fall on the target and part of it will be absorbed, now if the material cannot dissipate that absorbed energy quickly enough, the temperature will start to rise. The goal of the weapon is to deliver enough energy quickly enough to either destroy the target thermally or at-least deliver enough energy to destroy/disable (fry) some vulnerable critical systems such as electronics.

So you see a coating designed to beat laser designation could potentially make matters worse when a high-intensity laser is projected onto it as a weapon.

note: I'm not saying countermeasures cannot be built, just saying an absorptive coating would make matters worse.

The fundamental mistake you are making is the assumption of absorption. The coating doesn't absorb the energy, it causes the electromagnetic waves to cancel out with each other. Some energy is reflected from the coating-air interface, and some is reflected from the coating-body interface. These two cancel each other out.

Read "Radar and laser cross section engineering" second edition by David C. Jenn.

 

[araz]

Not much will change unless the recruitment process for all armed forces changes. There is a reason I like the IDF/AF's "Gibbush" training camp and selection process. WHen you are proactively looking for the best and brightest, you will get the best and brightest. When you are letting everyone join up and volunteer you will end up with the crop that is Pakistan.. you will get rote learning nincompoops who cant think out of the box, you will cheating sycophants, and then maybe you will get some good bright individuals.

Oscar.
There are various reasons for the bright ones to not remain in Pakistan. I wont say I am very bright. I went back to Karachi in 99 seeking a job so I could shift back.
I was surprised to learn how people's expectations had risen to well beyond their and my means. My father was alive and highly respected and a lot of students of his were in high places. A number of them met me and their standard response was"come back and we will sort slmething out for you". However when I would apply in writing they would say there are currently no jobs available. I got disheartened by the duplicity of the people and decided to come back to UK as the risks were far too many to take.
Iam assuming the same situation is occuring in Pak Forces. Money dictates where you end up and people who want to fly want to do so for lucrative jobs in the Airlines industry rather than the forces. This is the same all over. I dont know whether there should be a flying programme for all organized by the forces. If people then want to go and join airlines they need to pay their dues to the AF(Possibly AX2 actual expenditure). Those that want to stay on being declared fit and able fill a bond for X amount of years. That maybe one of the solutions.
A