Diplomatic row jeopardizes $1.5B helicopter deal between Turkey and Pakistan

[kshaib]

BETTER BUY CHIANESE, THERS IS NO SANCTION.

 

[Cherokee]

Go with China.

 

[GHALIB]

BETTER BUY CHIANESE, THERS IS NO SANCTION.

china is next super power.

yet you are more in debt then us.

we are not in search of bailout package to pay debt . we have enough reserves that can pay all debt in single day .

 

[Zibago]

Find another option,maybe try iran

WZ10 have been inducted by PLA in large numbers

It is not a export platform

In 2015 China gave us three Z-10,s for testing purpoaes they failed our requirements plus Trukey with its ATAK was offering a very good deal at that time(if only we couldve predicted Trump ) and Z-10,s were returned if in the future they offer us z-10,s things may get interesting
http://www.airrecognition.com/index...mission-on-chinas-z-10-attack-helicopter.html

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This was an expected byproduct of getting the ATAK as its a fairly sophisticated machine that still used a lot of US made components(for that matter so does the SAAB erieye, C-130, Radars and every radio in Pakistan)
But, the issue here is that Pakistan is an unwitting casualty in a third country dispute.. a better word for it is just bad luck rather than the idiotic accusations flying around.

In the end; one needs to accept how much US manufacturing affects the world and why it is impossible to go without US input.

Try building a single modern radar without a US designed or US produced digital signal processor.

ARMs, DSPs, FPGAs all come from US based manufacturers; the chinese havent been able to clone a single one of these which arent prone to failures.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa)

From the point of the seniconductor process technology for basic processors and controllers, the Chinese are filling the gap fast!!! As for military grade ICs, I am pretty sure the technology is already with them since they use much older nodes....

 

[Mahmood-ur-Rehman]

T129 with Russian engine ?

 

[Dazzler]

Calm down folks, the ATAKs will come anyway.

The Italians will step in in case Turks couldnt. They just singed this:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-and-italy-agree-to-explore-joint-defence-production.570675/. The deal will fall through anyway.

Though the Turks will likely have enough engines in the stock to pull out the sale. Remember, around half (15?) of the 30 choppers were either done or being tested.

Find another option,maybe try iran

WZ10 have been inducted by PLA in large numbers

It is not a export platform

The Z-10 is an excellent platform and has room for upgrades. it is stable, fast and maneuverable as it has FBW controls. The issues found during trials were nothing major and China can easily overcome them all. We may still see them in PA colors at some point it time. They also asked for a longer range ATGM as BA-9 could only reach six kms whereas minimum requirement was 8 kms.

Still, i suspect we may see the thunderbolts in PA sooner or later.

 

[T-123456]

Turkey and US will get past this spat and return to normalized relations in a few months and exports will continue. They are not letting the largest NATO military out of the picture just for a pastor or two. They will both reach a deal.

You are right,Pakistan will get the T-129 without any problems.
People need to use their brains.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Turkey can grow new trade ties

Russia (20-30% Target)
China (20-30% Target)
Iran (20-30% Target)
EU (20-30% Target)
Middle east (20-30% Target)

USA can be offset easily

Turkey just need some time to iron out some trade aspects

 

[WarKa DaNG]

Can't we put another engine Russian or Chinese to avoid sanctions?

 

[danishsaleem]

ANKARA, Turkey — An escalating diplomatic crisis between NATO allies Turkey and the United States may risk suspending a $1.5 billion deal between Turkey and Pakistan for the sale of 30 Turkish-made T129 ATAK helicopter gunships.

The T129 is being produced by Turkish Aerospace Industries under license from the Italian-British company AgustaWestland.

“The problem is related with the U.S.-made parts for which TAI will need U.S. export licenses in order to materialize the deal,” a Turkish aerospace official said.

The T129, based on its predecessor A129 Mangusta, is a twin-engine multirole attack helicopter. The T129 is powered by two LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engines. Each engine can produce 1,014 kilowatts of output power. The T800-4A is an export version of the CTS800 engine. LHTEC is a joint venture between the American firm Honeywell and the British company Rolls-Royce.

“Apparently we shall need U.S. export licenses to go ahead with the T129 deal,” a senior procurement official said. “This is not a technological or financial matter but is purely political at the moment.”

Washington has sanctioned two Turkish ministers, and U.S. President Donald Trump pledged to double tariffs on Turkish steel and aluminium exports to his country. Turkey retaliated by sanctioning two U.S. secretaries, but the row has already sparked a financial crisis in Turkey. The Turkish lira has lost 81.5 percent of its value against the U.S. dollar in the year to Aug. 12.

The row significantly deepened after a Turkish court refused to release a U.S. pastor who had been in jail since 2016 on charges of terrorism and attempted to topple Turkey’s elected government. Pastor Andrew Craig Brunson was later released from jail to house arrest, but U.S. officials are demanding his immediate release and return to his homeland.

The two NATO allies also have been at odds over U.S. support for Kurdish militants fighting the Islamic State group in northern Syria, as well as Turkey’s refusal to follow U.S. sanctions on Iran, and Ankara’s decision to deploy the Russian-made S-400 air and anti-missile defense systems on Turkish soil.

“This is a commercial deal (with Pakistan) with a country that has friendly relations with America. For Washington what matters should be the recipient of the systems, not who produces it and if relations are bumpy with the producer country,” a Turkish defense official said. “Why should the Americans punish Pakistan for their disagreements with Turkey?”

A TAI official said a U.S. embargo on the chopper deal was unlikely because it would also hurt a U.S. company as well as two British companies and one Italian. “These are not enemy producers,” he said. “They are on the ally side. And we (TAI) are not being sanctioned by the U.S. or any other ally country.”

A U.S. diplomat in Ankara refused to comment.

Turkey and Pakistan signed a deal July 13 for 30 T129 ATAK helicopter gunships. Pakistani officials say their own AH-1F Cobra gunships lack the capability to perform adequately over the higher altitudes of the Hindu Kush mountain range separating Afghanistan and Pakistan.

In 2016, Pakistani officials thoroughly tested the T129 and endorsed the deal.

LHTEC’s T129 engine also powers the 12 AH−1Z Viper attack helicopters ordered from the U.S. These are yet to be delivered, and such a timescale remains unclear in view of present U.S.-Pakistani bilateral relations.

To finance one of the country’s largest defense and aerospace export contracts, Turkey offered Pakistan a $1.5 billion credit line in 2017, but the deal’s payment terms are unknown.

“President Trump is not always predictable. … He may wish to punish Turkey by sabotaging such a critical export contract at a time when the Turkish economy is badly ailing. At the same time he may also wish to give a message to the Pakistanis,” according to a European defense attache in Ankara.

Most recently, Congress took another step toward banning the delivery of the F-35 stealth fighter jet to Turkey after the House and Senate agreed to a compromised text to a defense spending bill. The two chambers agreed to prohibit delivery of any F-35s to Turkey until the Pentagon submits a plan that assesses the impact of expelling Turkey from the Joint Strike Fighter program of which Turkey is a partner. The assessment should come within 90 days of the text becoming law.


https://www.defensenews.com/global/...tm_campaign=Socialflow&utm_source=twitter.com

its not diplomatic row, its US influence, which is always present in Pakistan.

 

[Super Falcon]

China hasn’t been able to reengineer engines properly yet with similar power capabilities.
Nothing that can be brushed away like that.

Agreed but sooner they will with russian help

Or turkey may ask russia to make few adjusting things for ATAK

 

[Mace]

Hi,

Thank you for your post----.

There is never an end to bad decisions by the Pak military---. The sanctiosn were obvious---.

where are those idiots on this board who maintained that nothing would happen between Turkey and USA---.

Nothing wrong in aspiring to operate the best hardware you can lay your hand on. I doubt this could have been envisaged before hand.

 

[Sully3]

china is next super power.



we are not in search of bailout package to pay debt . we have enough reserves that can pay all debt in single day .

But as we speak India is more in foreign debt then Pakistan. facts

 

[cloud4000]

Turkey and US will get past this spat and return to normalized relations in a few months and exports will continue. They are not letting the largest NATO military out of the picture just for a pastor or two. They will both reach a deal.

This spat has been going for a long time, starting in the Bush Administration, and I see no signs of it ending anytime soon. And it's not just about a pastor or two, but many issues.

Pakistan would be better off doing what it did with the JF-17; getting a lower end model it can procure in large numbers, because $1.5 Billion for 30 basically Turkish built US/European Attack Helicopters is too much in our current financial situation. Therefore the WZ-19 would be a adequate platform.

It's not like Pakistan is paying $1.5 billion at once. The payments are probably stretched over several years and quite doable.