Details of some ToT's that are being negotiated in India's MMRCA program

[Azazel]

Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India's MMRCA Contract

The upwards of $10 billion USD deal with France for the acquisition of the Rafale fighter aircraft would involve local assembly, manufacturing offsets & Transfer of Technology [ToT].

This screenshot of the presentation slide, used by HAL's Chairman, during his talk at the Aero India 2013 International Seminar shows some of the critical technologies & sub-systems for which India is negotiating with France to be included as part of its Rafale acquisition.

In its mind, India would want France to hand over all the technologies used, with no restrictions on where it applies them subsequently. Realistically, it would start off with a position, whereby some hardware sub-systems could come directly from France, some that would be assembled in the country, sourcing the components & raw materials from original vendors, while some in which France would have to part with sufficient information for India to be in a position to make those components/sub-systems completely independent of French involvement, save for its certification - ToT. This position would be challenged by the French who'd be willing to offer less, asking for more. This back and forth would continue till they reach a mutually agreeable position, upon which the contract would be signed. Even after receiving the ToT, contractual obligation would dictate whether the same tech or manufacturing process could be applied in other projects - the case in point being the ToT received for growing Single Crystal Blades [SCB] used in the twin AL-31FP Turbofan engines powering the IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs1. While SCBs are being made for the Flanker engines, the Kaveri has not been able to reap the benefits.

With respect to the MMRCA contract too, as understood from the Chairman's response to a query, he does not seem very hopeful about France permitting spin-off use of any ToT for other Indian projects - contractual agreement is yet to be signed. Whatever may be the case, the fact remains that MMRCA agreement would bring in technologies and capabilities, however may its extent, that are currently absent within the country. It is therefore up to its new end-users to figure how best to leverage it to leapfrog and make up for lost time, and not let it become a 1:1 affair.

Courtesy:Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India's MMRCA Contract [Illustration] - AA Me, IN

 

[zandubam]

If there is no tot application in other projects v must not go for this project.
Atleasy v must show some dedication like chineese, Iranians,though v arent copycat either,v shouldn't be.
Without tot y v bought hercules , c17 etc.by the way v already developing AESA radar and got green signal for AWACS programme.
We r delaying our AMCA project for the mercy of MMRCA ; fgfa etc.

 

[Koovie]

If there is no tot application in other projects v must not go for this project.
Atleasy v must show some dedication like chineese, Iranians,though v arent copycat either,v shouldn't be.
Without tot y v bought hercules , c17 etc.by the way v already developing AESA radar and got green signal for AWACS programme.
We r delaying our AMCA project for the mercy of MMRCA ; fgfa etc.

Forget AMCA, we need a good multi role platform now and not in decades ahead. Rafale and FGFA will give us much needed technology for any future Indian made aircraft.

And the C17 and C130s are just airlifters.

 

[anant_s]

One thing that stuck me is Titanium alloy forming in plastic state. India has really done its homework well. Titanium and carbon composite alloys form a huge part of airframe and it is important for any nation aspiring to manufacture its own fighters to master fabrication techniques with Titanium. Titanium can be welded only in Vacuum and while it is one of the best material (Light weight and high tensile strength) it is a nightmare to work with.
If France parts with some or whole part of this technology, India is bound to get immensely benefitted. I must say even if the deal costs us upward of USD 20 Billion, its still worth it provided all technologies mentioned in writeup are sucessfully abosrbed.

 

[faithfulguy]

The TOT is a total waste for India as India is not able to absorb the technology. India may reproduce the component but not able to improve upon it.

 

[zandubam]

Forget AMCA, we need a good multi role platform now and not in decades ahead. Rafale and FGFA will give us much needed technology for any future Indian made aircraft.

And the C17 and C130s are just airlifters.

Even v cant produce this airlifters.We will see how MTA jv with russia gonna grow . it would have been better if v signed jv agreement with Antonov from Ukraine for heavy airlifters
.
this would give russians some competition from thier own backyard.Any project with US is a heavy loss of money...compared with others..

Just f35 programme. Even the participant countries are in trouble spending too much.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India's MMRCA Contract

The upwards of $10 billion USD deal with France for the acquisition of the Rafale fighter aircraft would involve local assembly, manufacturing offsets & Transfer of Technology [ToT].

This screenshot of the presentation slide, used by HAL's Chairman, during his talk at the Aero India 2013 International Seminar shows some of the critical technologies & sub-systems for which India is negotiating with France to be included as part of its Rafale acquisition.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-3B8uBo3W1F8/URUtZ7d_amI/AAAAAAAAIfo/vbY9qrEFfvM/MMRCA-Technology-Transfer-Offset-01-.jpg?imgmax=800[IMG]

In its mind, India would want France to hand over all the technologies used, with no restrictions on where it applies them subsequently. Realistically, it would start off with a position, whereby some hardware sub-systems could come directly from France, some that would be assembled in the country, sourcing the components & raw materials from original vendors, while some in which France would have to part with sufficient information for India to be in a position to make those components/sub-systems completely independent of French involvement, save for its certification - ToT. This position would be challenged by the French who'd be willing to offer less, asking for more. This back and forth would continue till they reach a mutually agreeable position, upon which the contract would be signed. Even after receiving the ToT, contractual obligation would dictate whether the same tech or manufacturing process could be applied in other projects - the case in point being the ToT received for growing Single Crystal Blades [SCB] used in the twin AL-31FP Turbofan engines powering the IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs1. While SCBs are being made for the Flanker engines, the Kaveri has not been able to reap the benefits.

[IMG]http://lh6.ggpht.com/-1MRNSeDJ9Rs/URUtaybdcMI/AAAAAAAAIfw/6SEFsY_WIP8/MMRCA-Technology-Transfer-Offset-02-%25255B1%25255D.jpg?imgmax=800[IMG]

With respect to the MMRCA contract too, as understood from the Chairman's response to a query, he does not seem very hopeful about France permitting spin-off use of any ToT for other Indian projects - contractual agreement is yet to be signed. [B]Whatever may be the case, the fact remains that MMRCA agreement would bring in technologies and capabilities, however may its extent, that are currently absent within the country. It is therefore up to its new end-users to figure how best to leverage it to leapfrog and make up for lost time, and not let it become a 1:1 affair.
[/B]

[video=youtube;voa6nRJYfq8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=voa6nRJYfq8[video]

Courtesy:[url=http://www.aame.in/2013/02/transfer-of-some-critical-technology.html]Transfer Of Some Critical Technology Being Negotiated For As Part Of India's MMRCA Contract [Illustration] - AA Me, IN[url][/QUOTE]



Good thing to discuss ToT,

but ToT in third world countries have been the biggest fraud committed by the government baboos (bureaucrats).


All the weapon supply countries pay lip service to ToT.

by saying ahan ahan baita ji, just buy our expensive equipment for billions of hard earned dollars and we will give you the lollypop of ToT in 15 years.

Those 15 years make the whatever little tech they give as obsolete.

This has happened over and over with Russian and EU weapons systems.

The proof is in the pudding.

Because third world countries keep on going back to Rich countries to buy more every 15 years.


I know many Indians posters would not like what I am saying.


Believe you me, this the same $hit the babboos peddle in Pak too.

Saying We do ToT from France, we do ToT from China.

And still we keep on going back to the suppliers to buy more every 10-15 years because we didn't get a penny's worth of Tech that we could ever use in our local systems.

This ToT is biggest fraud and Pak and Indian fan-boyzz keep on lapping up this lollypop over and over again.



Third world countries must understand that ToT is never possible without ToA, ToB, and ToC.

That is technology does not come (get transfered) unless you work on the ABC.

A- Attitude - positive personal view
B- Behavior - social habits
C- Culture (that combines A and B and much more in literature, arts, and food habits).



So lets' transfer the ABC from the French first if we need their T (as in Tehcnology).


During my visits to France, I see how they get things done in their own way,

And

I also see North African Muslim immigrants not learning $hit from French ABC and living in slums as if they are still in Africa.

Why?

Because these mostly North African Arabs do not want to adopt ABC of French, and thus they are marooned in ghettos and slums.

And same thing is applicable to anyone buying weapons from EU or Russia or China.

Without their ABC, we'll surely go back to them in 10-15 years

Why?

Developing weapons is the top of the line Tech that a country has. You think they will give it away because you bought 200 units from them.

haahahah


It is like someone goes to Apple and says

---- I am going to buy 5, or 10, or 100 or even 10,000 I-Phone 5 from you. Can you transfer your hard earned Apple technology to us?


Apple will laugh at you for sure.

OK

They may not laugh if you are buying huge quantity like 10,000 phones. They will just give you a sweet sweet lollypop.

And then Apple Fan-boyzz will suck on the lollypop and claim we got the ToT, we got the ToT.


Yippy, yippy yo yo.

 

[nForce]

The TOT is a total waste for India as India is not able to absorb the technology. India may reproduce the component but not able to improve upon it.

and you are saying that considering yourself Nostradamus or the next Einstein ?

Good thing to discuss ToT,

but ToT in third world countries have been the biggest fraud committed by the government baboos (bureaucrats).


All the weapon supply countries pay lip service to ToT.

by saying ahan ahan baita ji, just buy our expensive equipment for billions of hard earned dollars and we will give you the lollypop of ToT in 15 years.

Those 15 years make the whatever little tech they give as obsolete.

This has happened over and over with Russian and EU weapons systems.

The proof is in the pudding.

Because third world countries keep on going back to Rich countries to buy more every 15 years.


I know many Indians posters would not like what I am saying.


Believe you me, this the same $hit the babboos peddle in Pak too.

Saying We do ToT from France, we do ToT from China.

And still we keep on going back to the suppliers to buy more every 10-15 years because we didn't get a penny's worth of Tech that we could ever use in our local systems.

This ToT is biggest fraud and Pak and Indian fan-boyzz keep on lapping up this lollypop over and over again.



Third world countries must understand that ToT is never possible without ToA, ToB, and ToC.

That is technology does not come (get transfered) unless you work on the ABC.

A- Attitude - positive personal view
B- Behavior - social habits
C- Culture (that combines A and B and much more in literature, arts, and food habits).



So lets' transfer the ABC from the French first if we need their T (as in Tehcnology).


During my visits to France, I see how they get things done in their own way,

And

I also see North African Muslim immigrants not learning $hit from French ABC and living in slums as if they are still in Africa.

Why?

Because these mostly North African Arabs do not want to adopt ABC of French, and thus they are marooned in ghettos and slums.

And same thing is applicable to anyone buying weapons from EU or Russia or China.

Without their ABC, we'll surely go back to them in 10-15 years

Why?

Developing weapons is the top of the line Tech that a country has. You think they will give it away because you bought 200 units from them.

haahahah


It is like someone goes to Apple and says

---- I am going to buy 5, or 10, or 100 or even 10,000 I-Phone 5 from you. Can you transfer your hard earned Apple technology to us?


Apple will laugh at you for sure.

OK

They may not laugh if you are buying huge quantity like 10,000 phones. They will just give you a sweet sweet lollypop.

And then Apple Fan-boyzz will suck on the lollypop and claim we got the ToT, we got the ToT.


Yippy, yippy yo yo.

the purpose of the ToT is not to learn the technology,but to secure our production line and spare parts supply from any external dependency.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

The TOT is a total waste for India as India is not able to absorb the technology. India may reproduce the component but not able to improve upon it.

Absorbing the tech is one thing and copying the tech is another thing.
Using the ToT, we get a first hand knowledge on how its done, thats it, not copy on future products

 

[rashtriya.rifles]

Good thing to discuss ToT,

but ToT in third world countries have been the biggest fraud committed by the government baboos (bureaucrats).


All the weapon supply countries pay lip service to ToT.

by saying ahan ahan baita ji, just buy our expensive equipment for billions of hard earned dollars and we will give you the lollypop of ToT in 15 years.

Those 15 years make the whatever little tech they give as obsolete.

This has happened over and over with Russian and EU weapons systems.

The proof is in the pudding.

Because third world countries keep on going back to Rich countries to buy more every 15 years.


I know many Indians posters would not like what I am saying.


Believe you me, this the same $hit the babboos peddle in Pak too.

Saying We do ToT from France, we do ToT from China.

And still we keep on going back to the suppliers to buy more every 10-15 years because we didn't get a penny's worth of Tech that we could ever use in our local systems.

This ToT is biggest fraud and Pak and Indian fan-boyzz keep on lapping up this lollypop over and over again.



Third world countries must understand that ToT is never possible without ToA, ToB, and ToC.

That is technology does not come (get transfered) unless you work on the ABC.

A- Attitude - positive personal view
B- Behavior - social habits
C- Culture (that combines A and B and much more in literature, arts, and food habits).



So lets' transfer the ABC from the French first if we need their T (as in Tehcnology).


During my visits to France, I see how they get things done in their own way,

And

I also see North African Muslim immigrants not learning $hit from French ABC and living in slums as if they are still in Africa.

Why?

Because these mostly North African Arabs do not want to adopt ABC of French, and thus they are marooned in ghettos and slums.

And same thing is applicable to anyone buying weapons from EU or Russia or China.

Without their ABC, we'll surely go back to them in 10-15 years

Why?

Developing weapons is the top of the line Tech that a country has. You think they will give it away because you bought 200 units from them.

haahahah


It is like someone goes to Apple and says

---- I am going to buy 5, or 10, or 100 or even 10,000 I-Phone 5 from you. Can you transfer your hard earned Apple technology to us?


Apple will laugh at you for sure.

OK

They may not laugh if you are buying huge quantity like 10,000 phones. They will just give you a sweet sweet lollypop.

And then Apple Fan-boyzz will suck on the lollypop and claim we got the ToT, we got the ToT.


Yippy, yippy yo yo.

Although you are roughly correct but as far as India is concerned, we are making some improvements with ToT. The only thing is there is no governing body at the highest level which can scrutinize the extent to which this ToT is being taken advantage of..
Eg. the ToT was provided by Bofors like 30 years back but it was shelved..

Now when DRDO got the danda in their a$$ they just used that ToT after 30 years to come up with a prototype of an improved Howitzers.. the responsibility of not using that ToT info in this case squarely lies with OFB..

And ToT is not equivalent to sharing tech.. It is just a rough sketch or overall design perspectives.. Nobody shares tech with one another. PERIOD !

 

[Abingdonboy]

Good thing to discuss ToT,

but ToT in third world countries have been the biggest fraud committed by the government baboos (bureaucrats).


All the weapon supply countries pay lip service to ToT.

by saying ahan ahan baita ji, just buy our expensive equipment for billions of hard earned dollars and we will give you the lollypop of ToT in 15 years.

Those 15 years make the whatever little tech they give as obsolete.

This has happened over and over with Russian and EU weapons systems.

The proof is in the pudding.

Because third world countries keep on going back to Rich countries to buy more every 15 years.


I know many Indians posters would not like what I am saying.


Believe you me, this the same $hit the babboos peddle in Pak too.

Saying We do ToT from France, we do ToT from China.

And still we keep on going back to the suppliers to buy more every 10-15 years because we didn't get a penny's worth of Tech that we could ever use in our local systems.

This ToT is biggest fraud and Pak and Indian fan-boyzz keep on lapping up this lollypop over and over again.



Third world countries must understand that ToT is never possible without ToA, ToB, and ToC.

That is technology does not come (get transfered) unless you work on the ABC.

A- Attitude - positive personal view
B- Behavior - social habits
C- Culture (that combines A and B and much more in literature, arts, and food habits).



So lets' transfer the ABC from the French first if we need their T (as in Tehcnology).


During my visits to France, I see how they get things done in their own way,

And

I also see North African Muslim immigrants not learning $hit from French ABC and living in slums as if they are still in Africa.

Why?

Because these mostly North African Arabs do not want to adopt ABC of French, and thus they are marooned in ghettos and slums.

And same thing is applicable to anyone buying weapons from EU or Russia or China.

Without their ABC, we'll surely go back to them in 10-15 years

Why?

Developing weapons is the top of the line Tech that a country has. You think they will give it away because you bought 200 units from them.

haahahah


It is like someone goes to Apple and says

---- I am going to buy 5, or 10, or 100 or even 10,000 I-Phone 5 from you. Can you transfer your hard earned Apple technology to us?


Apple will laugh at you for sure.

OK

They may not laugh if you are buying huge quantity like 10,000 phones. They will just give you a sweet sweet lollypop.

And then Apple Fan-boyzz will suck on the lollypop and claim we got the ToT, we got the ToT.


Yippy, yippy yo yo.

Please India isn't Pakistan or some African nation. You have spun a web of half-truth and sweeping generalisations. In Pakistan and Africa ToT might be a sham but the difference is that Paksitan and African nations have no real aviation or high-end technology base in which to take advantage of the ToT. India clearly does- he Indian aerospace escort is growing at a huge rate year on year and aerospace giants the world over are tieing up with Indian firms. India has the base in which to absorb the ToT and you don't have to look far to see the successes of the ToT in the past in India.


Do not lump India and Pakistan and African nations together-apples and oranges.


+Once again you have mis-used the term "third world" nation.

 

[EAK]

Paksitan and African nations have no real aviation or high-end technology base
Do not lump India and Pakistan and African nations together-apples and oranges.

Thats y they have JF-17 squadren in air against ur soon too be inducted super stealth tejas LOL ... U R Not third world country man ..... still poor people eat RATS in dinner to get over their hunger in india ... yes u r super power

 

[Azazel]

Good thing to discuss ToT,

but ToT in third world countries have been the biggest fraud committed by the government baboos (bureaucrats).


All the weapon supply countries pay lip service to ToT.

by saying ahan ahan baita ji, just buy our expensive equipment for billions of hard earned dollars and we will give you the lollypop of ToT in 15 years.

Those 15 years make the whatever little tech they give as obsolete.

This has happened over and over with Russian and EU weapons systems.

The proof is in the pudding.

Because third world countries keep on going back to Rich countries to buy more every 15 years.


I know many Indians posters would not like what I am saying.


Believe you me, this the same $hit the babboos peddle in Pak too.

Saying We do ToT from France, we do ToT from China.

And still we keep on going back to the suppliers to buy more every 10-15 years because we didn't get a penny's worth of Tech that we could ever use in our local systems.

This ToT is biggest fraud and Pak and Indian fan-boyzz keep on lapping up this lollypop over and over again.



Third world countries must understand that ToT is never possible without ToA, ToB, and ToC.

That is technology does not come (get transfered) unless you work on the ABC.

A- Attitude - positive personal view
B- Behavior - social habits
C- Culture (that combines A and B and much more in literature, arts, and food habits).



So lets' transfer the ABC from the French first if we need their T (as in Tehcnology).


During my visits to France, I see how they get things done in their own way,

And

I also see North African Muslim immigrants not learning $hit from French ABC and living in slums as if they are still in Africa.

Why?

Because these mostly North African Arabs do not want to adopt ABC of French, and thus they are marooned in ghettos and slums.

And same thing is applicable to anyone buying weapons from EU or Russia or China.

Without their ABC, we'll surely go back to them in 10-15 years

Why?

Developing weapons is the top of the line Tech that a country has. You think they will give it away because you bought 200 units from them.

haahahah


It is like someone goes to Apple and says

---- I am going to buy 5, or 10, or 100 or even 10,000 I-Phone 5 from you. Can you transfer your hard earned Apple technology to us?


Apple will laugh at you for sure.

OK

They may not laugh if you are buying huge quantity like 10,000 phones. They will just give you a sweet sweet lollypop.

And then Apple Fan-boyzz will suck on the lollypop and claim we got the ToT, we got the ToT.


Yippy, yippy yo yo.

You are completely ignorant of the concept of ToT.Its not about copying technology,its about creating a modern military industrial complex.By transferring the bulk of the manufacturing process to India and forcing the companies source from India we plan to create an industry of our own.This is part of a larger Defense industrial reforms undertaken by GoI.Read the new defense offset policy by MoD.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....



the purpose of the ToT is not to learn the technology,but to secure our production line and spare parts supply from any external dependency.

OK.

OK my dear poster, let me give you a simpler example and then we can extrapolate it to bigger and more complex ones.




So your company goes to Apple and buys 10,000 I-phone-5.


And does some kind of sham ToT to fool your company's share holders. then you come in and defend the whole sham by saying

--- Purpose of the ToT is not to learn the technology,but to secure our production line and spare parts supply from any external dependency


So 6 months later you have few bad batteries and few broken screens.


What do you do?

Do you say Apple Apple my dear Apple, give us the tech to make the batteries so we are not dependent on "external sources".

Do you say Apple Apple my dear Apple, give us the tech to make the screens so we are not dependent on "external sources".



Will apple do that?


Heck no!


You will either send back the broken I-Phones to Apple and they will either repair it or replace it with reconditioned ones.

Or

you can go to "shadow" market and buy some made in Taliwan/Korea batteries and screens,

And call

your inhouse technician Gopala and say

--- Hey Gopala can you fix the broken I-Phone 5s by using Taiwanese batteries and Korean screens.


Now I have no doubt that Gopala is smart enough to fix these I-Phones.

But I kid you not,

All the top managers and smart players will not be using those I-Phones repaired by our deer dear Gopala.


They would rather "fly" with the new I-Phones or the ones fixed/replaced by Apple.

And who will use the "Fixed by Gopala" I-Phones? low level clerks and college interns in the company.



The same thing is true with fighter planes.

Because they are fing much more complicated and sophisticated than a little tiny I-phone.


I hope you understand this now.


peace

 

[SpArK]

OK.

OK my dear poster, let me give you a simpler example and then we can extrapolate it to bigger and more complex ones.




So your company goes to Apple and buys 10,000 I-phone-5.


And does some kind of sham ToT to fool your company's share holders. then you come in and defend the whole sham by saying

--- Purpose of the ToT is not to learn the technology,but to secure our production line and spare parts supply from any external dependency


So 6 months later you have few bad batteries and few broken screens.


What do you do?

Do you say Apple Apple my dear Apple, give us the tech to make the batteries so we are not dependent on "external sources".

Do you say Apple Apple my dear Apple, give us the tech to make the screens so we are not dependent on "external sources".



Will apple do that?


Heck no!


You will either send back the broken I-Phones to Apple and they will either repair it or replace it with reconditioned ones.

Or

you can go to "shadow" market and buy some made in Taliwan/Korea batteries and screens,

And call

your inhouse technician Gopala and say

--- Hey Gopala can you fix the broken I-Phone 5s by using Taiwanese batteries and Korean screens.


Now I have no doubt that Gopala is smart enough to fix these I-Phones.

But I kid you not,

All the top managers and smart players will not be using those I-Phones repaired by our deer dear Gopala.


They would rather "fly" with the new I-Phones or the ones fixed/replaced by Apple.

And who will use the "Fixed by Gopala" I-Phones? low level clerks and college interns in the company.



The same thing is true with fighter planes.

Because they are fing much more complicated and sophisticated than a little tiny I-phone.


I hope you understand this now.


peace

Dear FauJ Historian.

As evident from the first pic, it is clear that a lot of ToT on demand are on surface materials like foaming, composites, riveting, some internal electronic parts composition which is to be shared with the primary contractor aka HAL research teams and to the private partners Dassault has found en route to the fulfillment of the deal de grande, .....this time around the people concerned are damn sure of what they need and how they are going to apply the know-how into and to where.

Your apples, oranges peaches story would have been more factually correct in a time, where India even while having a lot of ToT on offer couldnt apply it on anything or absorb it due to the lack of projects,money, vision or policy.

Time has changed.

Its not the corner mobile shop deal anymore, the private players has emerged and they are already on the big league in global arena before they moved into the defence sector, meaning they know their sh!t better than any governmental organisations.

So this time around the ToT will act as a double layered sanitary napkin , which will absorb whatever thing that oozes out.