Desperately In need of a Bomber

[Blackpearl]

Bell 412 and AS 350BIII Ecurieul are for Army. Lama and Allouette IIIs are being phased out.

PAF still has Allouette IIIs as SAR helos. MI-17 cannot be tasked with dedicated SAR duty. It is a heavy lift cargo/transport helo. Due to its sheer size (bigger fuseladge, increased rotor diameter), it cannot hover down in confined spaces (between trees, near to cliffs, narrow valleys and so), cannot maintain 'Hover on Spot', which is one of the prime requirement of a SAR helo, to precisely maintain position over a downed pilot, when he is being hoisted up.

Like Army, PAF should also look for some modern helo like Bell 412, Ecurieul etc.

 

[x_man]

Bell 412 and AS 350BIII Ecurieul are for Army. Lama and Allouette IIIs are being phased out.

PAF still has Allouette IIIs as SAR helos. MI-17 cannot be tasked with dedicated SAR duty. It is a heavy lift cargo/transport helo. Due to its sheer size (bigger fuseladge, increased rotor diameter), it cannot hover down in confined spaces (between trees, near to cliffs, narrow valleys and so), cannot maintain 'Hover on Spot', which is one of the prime requirement of a SAR helo, to precisely maintain position over a downed pilot, when he is being hoisted up.

Like Army, PAF should also look for some modern helo like Bell 412, Ecurieul etc.

Well, to your disappointment, PAFs Air Staff thinks otherwise and they have already inducted MI-171 as their next SAR helicopter.

Do you really think that Mi-171 cannot maintain 'Hover on Spot',...i hope no M-171 driver reads your comments. I happened to hitch few rides in Mi-171 at Sargodha, and its pilots say that its better in hover by being more steady and stable.

 

[Beskar]

Well. The PAF can really use the Bell A412 helicopter. It's specially designed for search and rescue missions i think. I'm sure pakistan airforce can afford a variant like that.

On the other hand, X_man, I think Blackwater is right about the mi-17. You also have to look at the fact that speed is also an issue in search and rescue missions.

my dad flew the SA330 puma for a couple of years. Mostly when there was a Rescue operation required for quick response, Puma's were considered. The flying dolphins are fast and more reliable in such a scenario when compared with the Gallant's MI-17's

 

[Beskar]

Oh btw guys, i randomly found a link on the internet with very good pictures from different areas of pakistan forces.

I was wondering if the admin would want to add these? or if the site already has these images.

Enjoy

.::UrbanPK::. > Pakistani Military Pictures

 

[IceCold]

If we have to look for a bomber then why not the A-10. But the point is PAF due to its limited resources has to go for a multi-role aircraft so that we have both the capabilities. Rest assured in case of a war, PAF will be used to defend pakistan's airspace while cruisemissles will be used to counter attack on priority targets within india and ballistic missles will be used if we decide to go nuclear.
Thats just a theory.

 

[x_man]

Well. The PAF can really use the Bell A412 helicopter. It's specially designed for search and rescue missions i think. I'm sure pakistan airforce can afford a variant like that.

On the other hand, X_man, I think Blackwater is right about the mi-17. You also have to look at the fact that speed is also an issue in search and rescue missions.

my dad flew the SA330 puma for a couple of years. Mostly when there was a Rescue operation required for quick response, Puma's were considered. The flying dolphins are fast and more reliable in such a scenario when compared with the Gallant's MI-17's

This thread started as a Requirement for a Bomber has somehow turned into a Requirement of a Rescue Helicopter, but I will continue with the discussion. As I mentioned that PAF has already selected and inducted MI-171 as a SAR heli and its already operational in many squadrons and will continue to do so for atleast next 20 years or so. So I don’t see any point in discussing that which helicopter will be better for PAF as alternate for Allouette because alternate is already in place and flying.

MI-171 may not be an ideal SAR in a classical way but it has proven itself not only in this role but also various other roles as well for decades. While considering many alternates for Allouette, PAFs also wanted that alongside SAR capability, it should have :-

** A reasonable cargo capacity that carry a single engine or medium cargo within its fuselage for short haul flights e.g between Risalpur and Peshawar instead of using expensive C-130 or CASA flights for small loads.

**Troop carrying capacity for 25 to 30 soldiers (airforces commando group etc)

**A heli that can be converted into a VIP configuration in a short time and could carry a resonable amount of passangers.

**Has enough range to cover bases like Samungli and area south of Shorkot (and Thal Firing range area). In 1997, we had an F-7 crash south of Bhakkar and the rescue operation became difficult due to very limited range and search time of the Allouette. Finally Army aviation came to rescue and the pilot was recovered back to Sargodha. Similarly, Samungli’s (Quetta) northern and southern flying training areas are way out of range for many helis and MI-171 was particularly considered for that rugged terrain and far flung areas due to its good endurance.

**Easy and hassle free spare and maintenance support.

So in a nutshell, Air staff must have considered all options, attended multiple presentations, held various meetings and after much deliberation while keeping in mind political, economical, and operational and various other aspects, they decided to go for MI-171 as it suited many PAFs objectives. I trust their judgement and hope that this heli proves itself in all the perceived roles.

 

[Blackpearl]

Agreed Sir X_man.
If that is the criteria for selection of the SAR Helo, MI-17 is the best choice.
One important thing you missed.
It can be converted into a flying ambulance. complete with all neceaasry electronic lifesaving equipment.

 

[MIG_ACE]

MiG-27 is not that reliable. the aircraft with highest payload in Indian inventory is the Su-30MKI"

Su-30 Is a multirole Aircraft. When you talk about Mig-27's usage in the indian airforce, It's more likely to be a bomber rather than a multi role aircraft.

And once again, As i said that ballistic Missiles are vulnerable to counter measures. Where as compared to strategic bombers, If let's say the target is a Weapons factory or a Nuclear reactor, The rain of conventional Warhead cannot be stopped.

Yes, Costly to maintain and purchase, But very good choice for the future.

The Mig-27 is slow and can't defend itself. It is more likely to be used as a close air-support aircraft during ground battles. AFAIK it can't carry nukes and its payload is much lesser compared to the Su-30.

The Su-30 can carry all the weapons a Mig-27 can and much more like the aerial version of the brahmos. Plus it has very good air-to-air capability and can carry nuclear weapons. India is eventually going to operate around 200+ Su-30s. But that still doesn't make it a strategic bomber.

As Su-47 rightly said India does not operate the Tu-95 bear but only the Tu-142 maritime patrol version which carries only ASW weapons.