What's new

Demonising Pakistan will not solve Afghanistan

fatman17

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
32,563
Reaction score
98
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Our skewed world view won't let us see the real Pakistan

The west can no longer afford to impose its values and notions of democracy on countries that neither want nor need them

Jason Burke

The Observer, Sunday 15 March 2009

First for the good news: Pakistan is not about to explode. The Islamic militants are not going to take power tomorrow; the nuclear weapons are not about to be trafficked to al-Qaida; the army is not about to send the Afghan Taliban to invade India; a civil war is unlikely.

The bad news is that Pakistan poses us questions that are much more profound than those we would face if this nation of 170m, the world's second biggest Muslim state, were simply a failed state. If Pakistan collapsed, we would be faced by a serious security challenge. But the resilience of Pakistan and the nation's continuing collective refusal to do what the west would like it to together pose questions with implications far beyond simple security concerns. They are about our ability to influence events in far-off places, our capacity to analyse and understand the behaviour and perceived interests of other nations and cultures, about our ability to deal with difference, about how we see the world.

Pakistan has very grave problems. In the last two years, I have reported on bloody ethnic and political riots, on violent demonstrations, from the front line of a vicious war against radical Islamic insurgents. I spent a day with Benazir Bhutto a week before she was assassinated and covered the series of murderous attacks committed at home and abroad by militant groups based in Pakistan with shadowy connections to its security services. There is an economic crisis and social problems - illiteracy, domestic violence, drug addiction - of grotesque proportions. Osama bin Laden is probably on Pakistani soil.

For many developing nations, all this would signal the state's total disintegration. This partly explains why Pakistan's collapse is so often predicted. The nation's meltdown was forecast when its eastern half seceded to become Bangladesh in 1971, during the violence that preceded General Zia ul-Haq's coup in 1977, when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, when Zia was killed in 1988, during the horrific sectarian violence of the early Nineties, through sundry ethnic insurgencies, after 9/11, after the 2007 death of Bhutto and now after yet another political crisis. These predictions have been consistently proved wrong. The most recent will be too. Yesterday, tempers were already calming.

Some of the perpetual international hysteria is stoked by the Pakistanis themselves. Successive governments have perfected the art of negotiating by pointing a gun to their own heads. They know that their nation's strategic importance guarantees the financial life support they need from the international community. More broadly, our understanding of Pakistan is skewed. This is in part due to centuries of historical baggage. Though few would quote Emile Zola on contemporary France, Winston Churchill, who as a young man fought on the North-West Frontier, is regularly cited to explain today's insurgency. This legacy also includes stereotypes of "Mad Mullahs" running amok, an image fuelled by television footage that highlights ranting demonstrators from Pakistan's Islamist parties though they have never won more than 14% in an election.

For many Britons, Pakistan represents "the other" - chaotic, distant, exotic, dirty, hot, fanatical and threatening. Yet at the same time, Pakistan seems very familiar. There is the English language, cricket, kebabs and curries and figures such as Imran Khan. There are a million-odd Britons of Pakistani-descent who over four decades have largely integrated far better in the UK than often suggested.

It is the tension between these two largely imaginary Pakistans that leads to such strong reactions in Britain. We see the country as plunged in a struggle between the frighteningly foreign and the familiar, between fanaticism and western democracy, values, our vision of the world and how it should be ordered. Yet while we are fretting about Pakistan's imminent disintegration, we are blind to the really important change.

Recent years have seen the consolidation of a new Pakistani identity between these two extremes. It is nationalist, conservative in religious and social terms and much more aggressive in asserting what are seen, rightly or wrongly, as local "Pakistani" interests. It is a mix of patriotic chauvinism and moderate Islamism that is currently heavily informed by a distorted view of the world sadly all too familiar across the entire Muslim world. This means that for many Pakistanis, the west is rapacious and hostile. Admiration for the British and desire for holidays in London have been replaced by a view of the UK as "America's poodle" and dreams of Dubai or Malaysia. The 9/11 attacks are seen, even by senior army officers, as a put-up job by Mossad, the CIA or both. The Indians, the old enemy, are seen as running riot in Afghanistan where the Taliban are "freedom fighters". AQ Khan, the nuclear scientist seen as a bomb-selling criminal by the West, is a hero. Democracy is seen as the best system, but only if democracy results in governments that take decisions that reflect the sentiments of most Pakistanis, not just those of the Anglophone, westernised elite among whom western policy-makers, politicians and journalists tend to chose their interlocutors.

This view of the world is most common among the new, urban middle classes in Pakistan, much larger after a decade of fast and uneven economic growth. It is this class that provides the bulk of the country's military officers and bureaucrats. This in part explains the Pakistani security establishment's dogged support for elements within the Taliban. The infamous ISI spy agency is largely staffed by soldiers and the army is a reflection of society. For the ISI, as for many Pakistanis, supporting certain insurgent factions in Afghanistan is seen as the rational choice. If this trend continues, it poses us problems rather different from those posed by a failed state. Instead, you have a nuclear armed nation with a large population that is increasingly vocal and which sees the world very differently from us.

We face a related problem in Afghanistan where we are still hoping to build the state we want the Afghans to want, rather than the state that they actually want. Ask many Afghans which state they hope their own will resemble in a few decades and the answer is "Iran". Dozens of interviews with senior western generals, diplomats and officials in Kabul last week have shown me how deeply the years of conflict and "nation-building" have dented confidence in our ability to transplant western values. Our interest in Afghanistan has been reduced to preventing it from becoming a platform for threats to the west. In Afghanistan, as in Iraq, the west has glimpsed the limits to its power and to the supposedly universal attraction of its values.

The west's dreams of a comfortable post-Cold War era have been rudely shaken. We have been forced reluctantly to accept the independence and influence of China and Russia. These are countries that we recognise as difficult international actors pursuing agendas popular with substantial proportions of their citizens. Other countries, particularly those less troubled than Pakistan or Afghanistan, are likely soon to join that list.

This poses a critical challenge in foreign policy. Worrying about the imminent collapse of Pakistan is not going to help us find answers to the really difficult questions that Pakistan poses.

http:///www.guardian.co.uk
 
An excellent piece. Thank you FM. More non-Pakistanis should read it, just to get some idea of the complexities that are Pakistan today.
 
it's easier to rule a country if you don't educate the population. the landowners and the businessmen have chosen not to liberate the serfs and to keep the kids out of school. like all reactionaries they have a religous rationalization.
 
Yes certainly - In Pakistan, you have absolutley everything - all the time - there is every kind of movement, every kind of life style - all jostling competing of dominance -- and also unfortunately a post modern relativism to ethics and morality, you will also find a lot socialist kind of notions about "equality", meaningless concepts and terms such "social justice" (did I just hear "class struggle") and then the islamist discourse of every variety and sect.

Besides this, if you recall Mr. Musharraf's statement that "democracy" needs to be tailored to reflect the history and existing social and political conditions - no tthe pie in the sky idealized framework which has no utility other than to be exploited by opportunists -- obviously my bias shows, but I do think it's more than less, an accurate reflect.
 
I was about to post this article. But then I thought that I will be misread and Pak members will draw wrong conclusions, because an Indian posted it.

Anyway, nice to see that someone is driving the car.
 
This is indeed a very objective article written by a non Pakistani. IMO it is impossible to be completely objective when you are a Pakistani. Our national psyche is such that rightly or wrongly we blame any thing untoward on foreign elements. By this we mean India or Afghanistan or CIA/Zionist conspiracy to destroy Islam.

Even after 30 years I cannot forget the time when some unknown Saudi elements took over Kaaba and stupid Pakistani public burnt US embassy in Islamabad (This happened on 21/11/1979 in the reign of the bigot Zia ul Haq). My Arab colleagues made fun of this most idiotic of acts by Pakistanis and taunted “Why do you guys think that you’re the guardians of Islam? You could have at least waited until after full facts were known.”

Our nationals have a persecution complex and are extremely emotional. To this we must add what Muneer Niazi said (Kujh sanoon we shauq maran daa see) meaning we also have a tendency to commit suicide.

There is certainly no Zionist or Indian conspiracy in the current political crisis. Democracy is barely a year old and we are already on the way to total chaos. One can understand Nawaz Sharif; he is out to get Zardari and wants to become PM himself. Zardari was not satisfied with Gov't in the centre and a coalition in three provinces; he also wanted power in Punjab. NS seem to have found a Brutus in Aitzaz Hassan, who despite being a member of the PPP Executive Committee is out to get his Co-Chairman. What about Ch. Iftikhar? If he is a true patriot, why doesn’t voluntarily give up his ambition for the sake political stability

I have only one thing to say, May Allah save Pakistan, because no one else seems to care.
 
Neo and I have the same environment so he can probably share the feelings we have about western lack of average intellectual capacity.

We often hear here in the Netherlands about freedom of speech which practically means bashing Islam and foreigners. They (Verdonk/Wilders) see as lower grade and want to destroy our heritage and identity and we should have degraded rights. The electorate that supports them are failed people that are jealous. No education, no intellectual capcity... I can imagine that. Here we have foreigners that move within their generation from low labour to directors. Here I am born in Pakistan and able to do highest university. But you will never get the same if you were a Dutch. The Dutch should be proud of their heritage... Yep, they introduced robbing of colonies. They introduced mass slavery. And yes, they were the best delivered of jews to the Nazi's. Yet now they tend to forget their black past. They forget that they raped Indonesia and called it police action.

Now with their government that was so happy to join coalition iof the willing to attack Irac (so called WMD) is trying to manipulate everything so they can not be blamed. They joined Afghanistan to rebuild. Yet everyone knows that there is zero rebuilding. For what? Cause they got their Dutchmen Scheffer joining the Nato leadership. So everytime I hear that the superiority nonsense here I show them a few parts and you get to hear it over and over again that I am different... I am not the typical foreigners. Well, I am not going to be a terrorist or Dutch hater but it shows that the Dutch should understand that their superiority is hardly based on facts. Stealing identity of people or degrading them might be an option but they should understand that most of the rebuilding is done by foreigners. And people that post reactions on "telegraaf.nl" are morons that should be educated. Maybe one should force intellectual tests before they get the right to vote.
 
pakistan is at the bottom of the human development scale. that is the "real pakistan."

pakistani politics is street theatre for idiots.

a nation of ignoramuses may easy to rule but has no future.

feudalism and bonded labor belongs in the past it has no place in the modern world. it is backwardness. the taliban and alquaida sanctuaries are just another aspect of that backwardness.
 
pakistan is at the bottom of the human development scale. that is the "real pakistan."

pakistani politics is street theatre for idiots.

a nation of ignoramuses may easy to rule but has no future.

feudalism and bonded labor belongs in the past it has no place in the modern world. it is backwardness. the taliban and alquaida sanctuaries are just another aspect of that backwardness.

yes u r right what u said ..but think of ur country.pakistan is the bottom devolpment scale .that is the real Pakistan but not like the America ..plz read the two links carefully
Sexual Assault Statistics

United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2007

Enjoy Living in US:usflag:
 
you should be ashamed of what's going on in your country. but you and most of the posters here aren't. instead you are smug and self-satisfied.

you are reactionaries and parasites.

islam means that landowners aren't taxed and children arent educated. it's a joke.
 
This is indeed a very objective article written by a non Pakistani. IMO it is impossible to be completely objective when you are a Pakistani. Our national psyche is such that rightly or wrongly we blame any thing untoward on foreign elements. By this we mean India or Afghanistan or CIA/Zionist conspiracy to destroy Islam.

Even after 30 years I cannot forget the time when some unknown Saudi elements took over Kaaba and stupid Pakistani public burnt US embassy in Islamabad (This happened on 21/11/1979 in the reign of the bigot Zia ul Haq). My Arab colleagues made fun of this most idiotic of acts by Pakistanis and taunted “Why do you guys think that you’re the guardians of Islam? You could have at least waited until after full facts were known.”

Our nationals have a persecution complex and are extremely emotional. To this we must add what Muneer Niazi said (Kujh sanoon we shauq maran daa see) meaning we also have a tendency to commit suicide.

There is certainly no Zionist or Indian conspiracy in the current political crisis. Democracy is barely a year old and we are already on the way to total chaos. One can understand Nawaz Sharif; he is out to get Zardari and wants to become PM himself. Zardari was not satisfied with Gov't in the centre and a coalition in three provinces; he also wanted power in Punjab. NS seem to have found a Brutus in Aitzaz Hassan, who despite being a member of the PPP Executive Committee is out to get his Co-Chairman. What about Ch. Iftikhar? If he is a true patriot, why doesn’t voluntarily give up his ambition for the sake political stability

I have only one thing to say, May Allah save Pakistan, because no one else seems to care.

reminds me of a "line" from the movie "Blood Diamond" (must see).

"i have often wondered if God is watching us do what we do to each other, then I realise that God has left this forsaken country a long time ago"

Hope this is not true!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Neo and I have the same environment so he can probably share the feelings we have about western lack of average intellectual capacity.

We often hear here in the Netherlands about freedom of speech which practically means bashing Islam and foreigners. They (Verdonk/Wilders) see as lower grade and want to destroy our heritage and identity and we should have degraded rights. The electorate that supports them are failed people that are jealous. No education, no intellectual capcity... I can imagine that. Here we have foreigners that move within their generation from low labour to directors. Here I am born in Pakistan and able to do highest university. But you will never get the same if you were a Dutch. The Dutch should be proud of their heritage... Yep, they introduced robbing of colonies. They introduced mass slavery. And yes, they were the best delivered of jews to the Nazi's. Yet now they tend to forget their black past. They forget that they raped Indonesia and called it police action.

Now with their government that was so happy to join coalition iof the willing to attack Irac (so called WMD) is trying to manipulate everything so they can not be blamed. They joined Afghanistan to rebuild. Yet everyone knows that there is zero rebuilding. For what? Cause they got their Dutchmen Scheffer joining the Nato leadership. So everytime I hear that the superiority nonsense here I show them a few parts and you get to hear it over and over again that I am different... I am not the typical foreigners. Well, I am not going to be a terrorist or Dutch hater but it shows that the Dutch should understand that their superiority is hardly based on facts. Stealing identity of people or degrading them might be an option but they should understand that most of the rebuilding is done by foreigners. And people that post reactions on "telegraaf.nl" are morons that should be educated. Maybe one should force intellectual tests before they get the right to vote.

Hon Sir,
Being in the Oil Industry. I have visited Amsterdam and Rotterdam many times. No doubt there is considerable element of truth in what you say about Nederland.

There is no place in this world that is actually ‘Heaven on earth”. There are ignorant people in every country. Dutch were one of the first to be invaded by the Nazis, actually this was the reason why Britain and France declared war on Nazi Germany. The anti Semite collaboration meant that Dutch were treated far better that east Europeans such as Poles. Dutch were also one the first worst colonists. There must be many neo Nazis in Holland, who like Skinheads in Britain go on **** bashing for sport. Yes Dutch follow US line in most of their foreign policy hence the support for invasion of Iraq and for WOT. I personally found even educated Americans ignorant about world affairs.

It is also incorrect to compare yourself with a man on the street in Holland. One should compare like with like, compare men on the street in say Karachi and Lahore with those on the streets of Amsterdam or Rotterdam. Only thing I found unacceptable in Dutch society was their extremely liberal attitude towards sex otherwise it is a far better place to live than Pakistan.

You have however ignored the fact that Nederland enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the world (GDP $40,000 per year verses $900 for Pakistan). There is no large scale law and order situation, no one is really poor in the true sense of the word. Most people are free to go about their daily business without the fear of being blown up by crazy extremists.

Pray tell me, what all of this got to do with the topic under discussion? I fail to understand the point you are trying to make. Are you trying to say that Pakistan is better place to live than Nederland? Or that Pakistanis are justified in their skewed view of the world?

I am not trying to defend Dutch or their attitude, I would only like to point out that despite being a very small country, Dutch had colonized Indonesia and were at one time a bigger naval power than England. Therefore, there has to be some quality in Dutch that they managed to build up a modern moderate country, a task which seems to be impossible in Pakistani context.

I also find it strange when very educated peopled try to justify the situation in Pakistan by criticizing Western countries instead. Two wrong don’t make a right.
 
Last edited:
Well, if you care to read (or have already done so) my past posts, I have been constantly saying that "It hardly matters what you really are, what matters is what you show you are". You can debate on any other thing. But one thing is certain - Pakistan has failed on this front.

Another thing - when someone (even India) says "Pakistan is going down", then it indirectly means "Pakistan is on somewhat high position right now". "Being down" doesn't hurt as much as "going down" does! It looks worse.

In short - when Pakistan claims that everything is under control, it should see the things from a third person's angle. Otherwise, what we (non-Pakistanis) notice is the difference between the facts and talks.

And last - many members here prefer not to hear anything from a non-Pakistani. They just throw some negative reports about other countries. This won't get them anywhere. Others' mistakes don't make you any good. You attitude certainly affects and represents Pakistan's attitude. So, be careful.

Thank you.
 
Yes an interesting article.

Firstly one of the most critical aspects I noted was this small line:
“our understanding of Pakistan is skewed. This is in part due to centuries of historical baggage”

For the West this is possibly one of their problems. Things are seen in their light and with respect to their approach to issues.

Pakistan has specific problem as well and one that has been raised already in this thread/forum, Pakistani people are quick to blame the outsider, be it US, Israel, India and the list goes on. This does not help Pakistan as some of the problems are definitely internal and have no reference to outsiders. It does not help the west either as they see such reactions as being negative to them and any assistance they may provide.

Munir:
You take umbrage of freedom of speech, so do I. I take umbrage against the various Islamic religious leaders in my country who publicly denounce our women as pieces of meat. Who consider that pack rape of western women is ok and they bring it on themselves, this in respect to 5 Muslim men raping young teenage girls.
Some even demand we, a western nation, should change to their religious views.
No these are not made up stories they were fully reported in our press.
So don’t talk to me about Islam bashing. Much is brought on themselves by their blatant behaviour.

With respect to Afghanistan, you say “Yet everyone knows that there is zero rebuilding”. From memory the Dutch are in Uruzgan Province and provide more than nothing. Start with irrigation works, assistance to poor farmers with fruit trees, fowls, and assistance with crop diversification. And yes the military is teher to support the Australian reconstruction team, which has built bridges and schools. This team has also assisted in rebuilding a mosque as well.
So go there first before spouting off incorrectly.


There are enough smart minds here that should be thinking about their country, but spend more time denouncing every other nation for your own problems.

You have democracy. Fine, but is it the right form of democracy or should you actually have something else?
There are terrorists in areas of Pakistan, but there is a split between they are OK and they are bad for the country. You only get terrorists and mullahs beating about when there is poor national stability, very poor education and almost no social infrastructure.

These are just some of the problem you have and seriously only you can fix them.

Pakistan should be a great nation, but it so far has not reached that potential.


niaz and fatman17; one passing comment with respect to
May Allah save Pakistan, because no one else seems to care

My understanding be it Christian, Islam or any other religion, your God only helps when you help yourself. It is through you He acts no one else. Do not expect Him to do it for you if you don’t care to move yourself.

Yes in simple terms the West does care but has not received the correct direction from Pakistan for that help.
 
Back
Top Bottom